Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Kaosium said:
Did you want to be Beavis or Butthead? I think the 'conspiracy' was expanded to include Larry, Moe and Curley if that's more to your liking...

:p

Seriously though, you once claimed you'd read two books on the case, being as that was the Cartwheels thread my guess is those musta been "Darkness Descending" and "Angel Face." Thus you must have some basic knowledge of the case.

So what is it--specifically--that suggests to you that Amanda and Raffaele had anything to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher? Forget the cops, forget the courts, forget what anyone else thinks, what evidence convinced you they had to have played a role in the murder?
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Personally, I believe lionking has some doubt about guilt and his concerns revolve around the form and direction the argument for innocence has taken, the CT factors and the lack of skepticism from the standpoint of innocence arguments.

Assuming I am not completely incorrect in my belief, the question to me is if that is a valid concern. Lately, I am not seeing a whole lot of skepticism from either side.

Just my opinion.
 
Mum and Dad

Yes you have but your finger on the main fact with your last comment, it is not the people of Italy nor the people of Perugia, who should be painted with the same brush.
Students are away from the home, trying to cut mum and dads strings, but when they need help, who do they call, yes its mum and dad.
 
DNA results are in

AP: Experts contest DNA evidence at Knox trial


June 29, 2011 07:55 AM EST |

ROME — Independent forensic experts are disputing much of the forensic evidence collected against Amanda Knox, saying that some of the DNA traces used to convict the American student and her co-defendant may have been contaminated.

Prosecutors maintained in the first trial that Knox's DNA was found on the handle of a kitchen knife they believe to be the murder weapon, and that the DNA of victim Meredith Kercher was found on the blade. They say the DNA of co-defendant Raffaele Sollecito was found on the clasp of Kercher's bra.

The court-appointed experts said in a report Wednesday obtained by The Associated Press that the genetic profile attributed to Kercher is "unreliable" and that results may have been contaminated on both the blade and bra clasp.
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Justinian2 said:
Did you get the impression that there was a successful contrast between Guede and Amanda in this case? Guede, perhaps, couldn't even read a letter he wrote in his own language and Amanda who was fluent in her second language (Italian)?

Perhaps the effort was to contrast Amanda with Guede. Do you think that was successful? A side by side comparison of the accused may have helped the defense. Maybe the defense team isn't so dumb....
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Rudy's voice was calm, articulate and he did not sound as if he had limited education. I am trying to locate in the video where Hellmann asks him if he can read the letter and Rudy responds no. There is a place where Rudy is asked if this is the letter he wrote and he cannot confirm but after looking more at the document affirms it is his letter.

Amanda is fluent in Italian but it does not come forth as gracefully as some who speak a second language. That may be more do to her pattern of speech - I have heard her speak in English - and the fact that she has much at stake so her voice will be full of emotion.

I have heard a judge say to not only listen to what a witness/defendant has to say but to also observe their demeanor as that can be as telling as what is said. Just because someone speaks well it doesn't mean they are telling the truth. Conversely, just because someone doesn't speak well it doesn't mean what they have to say is a lie.

All eyes were on Rudy, Amanda and Raffaele. It would be interesting to know what impression/comparison was made about the three by the judges present.
 
billyryan said:
Rose what do you make of the breaking news that Amanda Knox's DNA is not on the knife

Kevad has posted that it is being leaked from the DNA independent review

It makes me wonder what the real reason the bra clasp had to be destroyed to prevent it being retested was
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It does not surprise me that Kercher's DNA can't be found whether it is taken that it was all used up in the single test or that it was never there to begin with and is possibly due to machine contamination and the cranking up of the knob.

Amanda's DNA is another story. This was supposed to be a sufficient quantity that it would be unlikely that nothing remained on the knife handle. It is still possible that it was completely used up in the sample but it starts to get suspicious at this point.

What I found more interesting was the presence of starch on the knife blade and I feel that is a good indication that the knife was not particularly clean to begin with and not cleaned with bleach. Cleaning every trace of blood and leaving starch behind makes no sense. The prosecution proposed explanation of the starch being deposited from the gloves of the testers is something that sounds to me to be a real stretch and I look forward to seeing how the experts will address that.
 
komponisto said:
AP: Experts contest DNA evidence at Knox trial
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I very much doubt that AP would have hit the wires with this piece unless they really had seen a leaked copy of the report, and they had verified its authenticity. So I'm going to say that I believe that AP's reporting of the report's conclusions is accurate.

Next I'm going to say this: well, well, well. This is pretty much exactly what many of us have been arguing for months (and years in some cases), to be constantly met with the usual idiotic (and deeply unsceptical) response from pro-guilt groupthinkers - who were either too lazy, too deeply invested in their point of view, or simply too unintelligent to look properly at this issue. After all, if they had looked at it objectively and with an open mind, they would easily have been able to see what so many of us could see (and what Conti and Vecchiotti could also see) - which was the the DNA evidence in this case was extremely flawed for a number of reasons, and should never have been used as evidence against either Knox or Sollecito.

I wonder if things like this will make some of the pro-guilt advocates stop for a moment and think about their entire approach to this case. It should do, of course, but somehow history suggests that they will just continue to plough on along their illogical over-invested path until the bitter end. Poor them.
 
komponisto said:
AP: Experts contest DNA evidence at Knox trial
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Similar reports are popping up. The interesting thing here is the bra clasp, there were already indications the knife results were going to be discredited. I hope we get to see the complete report and more information on the possible contamination of the bra clasp. I am certain I will again see the claim elsewhere that unless contamination is proven, it doesn't exist.
 
komponisto:
"The court-appointed experts said in a report Wednesday obtained by The Associated Press that the genetic profile attributed to Kercher is "unreliable" and that results may have been contaminated on both the blade and bra clasp."
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That means that the small amount on the blade and and the six week loss of the bra clasp made them unusable as evidence according to the experts.

Of course it will be disputed, but it is a big setback for the prosecution.

And a critique of the lab and crime scene inspection:
Corriere quotes from the report::
"non sono state seguite le procedure internazionali di sopralluogo e di protocollo internazionali di raccolta e campionamento del reperto"
 
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RoseMontague said:
It does not surprise me that Kercher's DNA can't be found whether it is taken that it was all used up in the single test or that it was never there to begin with and is possibly due to machine contamination and the cranking up of the knob.

Amanda's DNA is another story. This was supposed to be a sufficient quantity that it would be unlikely that nothing remained on the knife handle. It is still possible that it was completely used up in the sample but it starts to get suspicious at this point.

What I found more interesting was the presence of starch on the knife blade and I feel that is a good indication that the knife was not particularly clean to begin with and not cleaned with bleach. Cleaning every trace of blood and leaving starch behind makes no sense. The prosecution proposed explanation of the starch being deposited from the gloves of the testers is something that sounds to me to be a real stretch and I look forward to seeing how the experts will address that.
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I wonder how full Patrizia Stefanoni's work diary is with invitations to share her "world-renowned" expertise at conferences and symposiums across the globe. The invites will be pouring in after this... :rolleyes:
 
RoseMontague said:
Similar reports are popping up. The interesting thing here is the bra clasp, there were already indications the knife results were going to be discredited. I hope we get to see the complete report and more information on the possible contamination of the bra clasp. I am certain I will again see the claim elsewhere that unless contamination is proven, it doesn't exist.
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Haha yeah, I'm sure you're right with your last sentence. What those idiots can't understand, of course, is that it's incumbent upon the investigators to take all reasonable steps to minimise the chance of contamination. That these steps were not followed in the case of the bra clasp (and the knife, for that matter) is one of the bigger understatements with regard to this whole case...
 
LondonJohn said:
I wonder if things like this will make some of the pro-guilt advocates stop for a moment and think about their entire approach to this case.
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Ha! As if.

But there's no question now that Massei sure looks like a fool (for denying the review in the first trial and then not listening to the defense experts).
 
RoseMontague said:
I believe the report will say that the methods used to test Amanda's DNA on the handle were found to be reliable, not that they were able to get a new sample and run another test.
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Exactly. And since the prosecution claim was always that there was plenty of Knox's DNA on the handle, yet there appears to be none there now, that presents an intractable problem to the prosecution in and of itself.

In any case, Knox's DNA on the knife handle means absolutely nothing in the context of the murder. All it would mean is that Knox's DNA was found on a knife that was in Sollecito's apartment's kitchen drawer - an apartment where Knox had spent a lot of time over the previous six days, and where she'd very likely handled kitchen utensils in the normal course of living.

The whole thing's falling apart. Finally.
 
RoseMontague said:
I believe the report will say that the methods used to test Amanda's DNA on the handle were found to be reliable, not that they were able to get a new sample and run another test.
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Right, that's exactly what it says, apparently. But that was always going to be the interesting part -- how they would evaluate Stefanoni's results (I never thought they were going to be able to run their own tests).

Amanda's DNA on the handle, needless to say, is utterly unremarkable and not the slightest bit inculpatory.
 
LondonJohn said:
I wonder if things like this will make some of the pro-guilt advocates stop for a moment and think about their entire approach to this case.
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No, of course not, because (as I've pretty much always said) the piece of "evidence" they give the most importance to is the "confession". All this complicated sciency-sounding stuff (like DNA, or stomach contents) is neither here nor there.
 
bolint said:
komponisto:



That means that the small amount on the blade and and the six week loss of the bra clasp made them unusable as evidence according to the experts.

Of course it will be disputed, but it is a big setback for the prosecution.

And a critique of the lab and crime scene inspection:
Corriere quotes from the report::
"non sono state seguite le procedure internazionali di sopralluogo e di protocollo internazionali di raccolta e campionamento del reperto"
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Which, for those people not conversant with Italian, translates to:

"International procedures of inspection were not followed, and neither were international protocols for the collection and testing of the exhibit followed"

Oh. Dear.
 
The story is now one of two running on the Sky news "breaking news" ticker - alongside the Greek vote on austerity measures. I wonder if Sky have terminated their freelancing contract with Nick Pisa yet.......
 
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