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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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a_unique_person said:
Do I have to?
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You said it could be demonstrated for crying out loud. You have two things to prove:

There was wide-spread nationalism (that is to say: the idea of being separate from the Ottomans/Caliphate/any Empire)

and Self-Determination was equally rampant.

Are you going to try?

*ETA

The only stipulation is that your answers must be analogous to whatever you believe the Palestinians displayed in the 40s (and the 70s apparently). So if you were to say that the Jewish Revolt is similar to what the Palestinians later went through, you must be the one to draw parallels.

And you are more right than you know about comparing the Jewish Revolt to Black September:

A sizable group of terrorists attempts to destabilize a central authority for perceived religious and political injustice...in other words, nonsense.
 
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There were Sultans who tried to carve out their own enclaves. The Al-Saud tribe beat down and suppressed all their rivals and carved out a state. But they weren't interested in abstract notions like Arab self-determination. The Al-Sauds were interested in the Al-Sauds.

So self determination for who? Arabs are first and foremost loyal to their tribe. Nationalism and self-determination merely became vehicles for tribal dominance and careerism.
 
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IDB87 said:
You said it could be demonstrated for crying out loud. You have two things to prove:

There was wide-spread nationalism (that is to say: the idea of being separate from the Ottomans/Caliphate/any Empire)

and Self-Determination was equally rampant.
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Self Determination is a right. Unless I specifically demand to be alive, I don't have a right to live? It took the Australian aboriginals years to realise what was going on, just because they did not fight back and kill civilians at first did not mean they had no right to self determination from the start.
 
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a_unique_person said:
Self Determination is a right. Unless I specifically demand to be alive, I don't have a right to live? It took the Australian aboriginals years to realise what was going on, just because they did not fight back and kill civilians at first did not mean they had no right to self determination from the start.
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It's nice to know you are fighting for the self-determination "right" for those in your home country before worrying about the self-determination "right" of those half way around the world. Oh, wait. Never mind.
 
mortimer said:
It's nice to know you are fighting for the self-determination "right" for those in your home country before worrying about the self-determination "right" of those half way around the world. Oh, wait. Never mind.
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Yeah, it wasn't worth posting. Too cheap.
 
a_unique_person said:
Self Determination is a right. Unless I specifically demand to be alive, I don't have a right to live? It took the Australian aboriginals years to realise what was going on, just because they did not fight back and kill civilians at first did not mean they had no right to self determination from the start.
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Please slow down on that list of great Arab nationalist leaders. I can't keep up with your extensive list of great Arab nationalist leaders.

There are some cultures where you don't have a right to live. There are some cultures that strangle their daughters for looking at a boy. There are cultures with no concept of Rule of Law, where "rights" are whatever the Big Boss says are your rights. That's pretty much how the non-western world has operated since year dot.
 
JihadJane said:
Yeah, it wasn't worth posting. Too cheap.
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Cheap? How so? Are you fighting for those foreigners under your country's control? Or are you busy complaining about people halfway around the world? You are in the U.S. right? So obviously you have a problem with the oppression of the Chamorros and Tainos. You've of course posted about those ethnic groups, right?
 
IDB87 said:
You said it could be demonstrated for crying out loud. You have two things to prove:

There was wide-spread nationalism (that is to say: the idea of being separate from the Ottomans/Caliphate/any Empire)

and Self-Determination was equally rampant.

Are you going to try?

*ETA

The only stipulation is that your answers must be analogous to whatever you believe the Palestinians displayed in the 40s (and the 70s apparently). So if you were to say that the Jewish Revolt is similar to what the Palestinians later went through, you must be the one to draw parallels.

And you are more right than you know about comparing the Jewish Revolt to Black September:

A sizable group of terrorists attempts to destabilize a central authority for perceived religious and political injustice...in other words, nonsense.
Click to expand...


goalposts are shifting again?

first I'm told there is no nationalism. Then I'm told to counter the position of "no Nationalism" then "widespread nationalism" has to be established? and that self determination has to be "rampant"


you do understand there was no nationalism in america before the revolution....well, none that I regard as "widespread" or "rampant". you need to define what you expect in the way of evidence instead of putting these handy qualifiers on them.
 
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mortimer said:
Cheap? How so? Are you fighting for those foreigners under your country's control? Or are you busy complaining about people halfway around the world? You are in the U.S. right? So obviously you have a problem with the oppression of the Chamorros and Tainos. You've of course posted about those ethnic groups, right?
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shall we list all the nasty things around the world you have not condemned??

this is a tired old line....
 
The Fool said:
irst I'm told there is no nationalism. Then I'm told to counter the position of "no Nationalism" then "widespread nationalism" has to be established? and that self determination has to be "rampant"
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Well, you'd think that nationalism would need to be widespread, and the desire for self-determination would have to be rampant, in order to say that a society was nationalistic, and wanted self-determination, right? I mean, I guess you could say that nationalism and desire for self-determination would need to be a majority view, if you wanted to. Any evidence of that?
 
Virus said:
Please slow down on that list of great Arab nationalist leaders. I can't keep up with your extensive list of great Arab nationalist leaders.

There are some cultures where you don't have a right to live. There are some cultures that strangle their daughters for looking at a boy. There are cultures with no concept of Rule of Law, where "rights" are whatever the Big Boss says are your rights. That's pretty much how the non-western world has operated since year dot.
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Hajj Amin al-Husayni.

but let me guess....not "great" enough? Not in the correct date band? Too tall? cuddled up with the nazis so he doesn't count?
 
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mortimer said:
Well, you'd think that nationalism would need to be widespread, and the desire for self-determination would have to be rampant, in order to say that a society was nationalistic, and wanted self-determination, right? I mean, I guess you could say that nationalism and desire for self-determination would need to be a majority view, if you wanted to. Any evidence of that?
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so its gone from the suggestion that it didn't exist (and calls to show any amount of it)...but its now slowly evolving to having to be "widespread", "rampant" a "majority view"...etc etc...
 
Virus said:
The Nazi collaberator? He was post-colonialism.
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ok...not in the right date band.....

remind me again....what is the point to all this flapping about arab nationalism ? You pick a particular date band and ask for evidence of the existance of nationalism during that particular date band without being able to describe what sort of evidence you would expect to see....The ottomans didn't tend to setup forums for the expression of self determination. As soon as the forums existed the expressions were there.

what does all that add up to again?
 
Don't ask me. I'm not the one claiming there were nationalists under the Ottomans that predated the European development of the nation state.
 
HoverBoarder said:
Well I did ask if you had any solutions to this...

The problem is that it would not just be the Arab world who would object to that plan, the Israelis would object, a lot of the UN, China, Russia, the EU, the US, and pretty much a large portion of the world would object, some maybe even violently.

That would be taking a bad situation and making it much worse.
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So, The Fool, do you still think that an outside violent military solution is the best idea?
 
Virus said:
Don't ask me. I'm not the one claiming there were nationalists under the Ottomans that predated the European development of the nation state.
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well, "skeptic" understands there were....why don't you earbash him about evidence?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7296710&postcount=4641

here is one of his essays delegitimising palestinians......he accepts that there was arab nationalism....but of course palestinians must not be spoken of as really existing at all.
 
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