General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[IDB87]

IIRC, that's what happened to the Jews when they tried to take on the Romans. They similary didn't want to take on the whole government, just take back what they thought was theirs. I don't think they were stupid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealotry

Had nothing to do with self determination. It had everything to do with religion.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Ugh...I disagree with you on so many points, but at least we agree that discrimination exists.

Although I would consider all of the 20+ laws in the article that I listed that result in more discrimination to occur to be supporting that discrimination while you do not.

Fair enough, moving on.

I know discrimination and a disparity exists between the groups of people residing in Israel (and only in Israel, we're not talking about the needed separation between the Palestinian Arabs and the Jews and Arabs holding Israeli citizenship/permanent residency status in the disputed territories) and that there should be a solution to close this gap.

And to tell you the truth regarding gaps in all the aforementioned talking points, in Israel's 60+ years existing as a modern democratic state, it has made greater strides compared to other more developed states/countries/republics/etc. classified as 'more free' under Freedomhouse and other organizations.

As for the article mentioning the '20+ laws', you have to take into account the fact that this is an NGO with a political platform and, as stated in my previous reply, has tried, and failed in many regards, to attribute these laws as government sponsored discrimination, ie land-ownership, education, civil service, laws/rights regarding religious freedoms, etc. This is the point that I've been getting at. If you cannot see the vital difference, then perhaps its still not time to move on....

 

[Pardalis]

there is violence now, there will be violence during the transition to statehood, there will be violence for sometime after.....now explain to me again why you are awarding Hamas a veto?

I am not awarding them anything, what I'm saying they don't need one, they will take action without anyone's consent but their own. Your use of the word "veto" makes it sound like they have a legitimate position in this conflict. They are thugs.

No....I mostly mean the US, and the EU with Military support under the UN.

Wow, this is going to be taken well in the Arab world...

 

[bigjelmapro]

What sort of a "King" was he? Not much, it was just a convenient invention from a few years ago when the British and other colonial powers made a complete mess of inventing new national boundaries that completelely ignored existing ethnic boundaries. You say that it's all just about hating Jews, but when Palestinians try to unite with others in Jordan, it's just a criminal act. The "King" was not a Jew, it is not all about Jews, despite the fiction that is being created here.

Read the link you posted and see how generous and pleasant the PLO/Fatah was to the Jordanians.

Then come back, formulate a rebuttal as to where Black September was in protest losing the Transjordan.

Then do the same for yet another claim that Black September was a nationalist movement of Palestinians to unite with other Palestinians in Jordan. (Seriously, where do these claims begin and end?)

On the bottom of that pile of baseless claims of yours is the old one of the calls of Palestinian Arabs for self-determination under the Ottoman empire or under any past caliphate.

Evidence or fold, or.....why not make another baseless claim?

 

[Virus]

Palestinians never wanted self determination. They only live to hate Jews. They bring all their woes on themselves. When Arafat was alive, it was all his fault. Now that he's dead, there is always another Palestinian to blame. Can there be a 'should' with these preconditions.

So Palestinians don't hate Jews now? It's not true because it shouldn't be true.

If they don't hate Jews then why do they indoctrinate their children with antisemitic poision in school and on TV? Even Egypt does it and they're technically at peace, for now.

 

[a_unique_person]

So Palestinians don't hate Jews now? It's not true because it shouldn't be true.

If they don't hate Jews then why do they indoctrinate their children with antisemitic poision in school and on TV? Even Egypt does it and they're technically at peace, for now.

Moving the goal posts again. I didn't say there is no anti-semitism, I said this is not all about hating people just because they are Jews.

 

[a_unique_person]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealotry

Had nothing to do with self determination. It had everything to do with religion.

So it wasn't about them determining for themselves about the right to follow their own religion? It was and still is, for religious Jews, an important part of defining themselves.

 

[WildCat]

So it wasn't about them determining for themselves about the right to follow their own religion? It was and still is, for religious Jews, an important part of defining themselves.

OMFG, you're actually using a story of an incident from over 2,000 years ago as evidence of something today...

 

[Stout]

4). Why do so many left-wingers hate Israel? David Mamet recently raised an intriguing possiblity. Feeling self-satisfied in the safe, rich west is great if you have a group of people who suffer for you to observe, much like some Church fathers declared part of the joys of heaven is seeing others suffer in hell. But it has to come with a price: first, one must ignore reality and pretend the Palestinians are suffering intolerably, when the reality is very different; and one must find some bogeyman to blame -- the evil Israel -- so as to make one's pleasure at one's unjustified luck of being born in a rich, stable society feel morally acceptable. Well, it's a theory, anyway.

I'm not buying this one. Were this the case with the left, they'd be suffering in solidarity with the denizens of North Korea and Burma. With the left, what happens within the boundaries of a sovereign nation stays within the boundaries of a sovereign nation, except if there's a separatist group, then the left sticks their noses in.

No, there's other reasons why the left hates Israel.

One is, they're reliving the conquest/invasion/settlement/yadayada of the Americas where we have a white European population invading the land, oh crap, how do I put this without lighting DC on fire again, ummm, OK, the land of non-whites.

Remember, to the left, the white west is the epitome of evil and is solely responsible for everything bad happening in the world today. No white people= one planet full of happy skipping people living in harmony with nature.

Then we have the dumping a European problem on the Middle East angle. After WW2, European Jews *should* have stayed in Europe.

Then there's the power dynamic. According to leftist doctrine, the one with the power should not wield it because....it's bad. Gaza fires homemade rockets at Israel, then Israel should retaliate with homemade rockets, no more. You're a big guy walking down the street and a little guy comes up and punches you in the gonads, you write him a sternly worded letter, don't beat the tar out of him because you have the power.

Then there's the guilt aspect. Since Israel is "funded" by the west, there's some collective guilt to be spread around. The general idea is "not in our name" with the implication that a rifle bullet fired by an Israeli sniper was purchased with the tax dollars of the western worker.

Then there's the obligatory support the underdog doctrine on the left. Look how in favour of the Libyan revolution the left was....until NATO got involved.

Since this site is running like it's steeped in molasses I'll chime in on the anti-semitism thing here. Never, ever have I seen any anti-semitism coming from the left. The leftist freakshow I read daily ( hey, some people read the funny pages, right ? ) frowns heavily on anything that could be remotely construed as anti semitism. They're even trying to ban the term Zionazi, but having some difficulty doing that, unlike they had with the term Islamofascism.

The left doesn't want to acknowledge the existence of radical Islam, preferring instead to lump all types of Islam together so they can shout Islamophobia ! at anyone critical of any particular aspect(s) of Islam, much like some Israelis shout anti-semitism ! at anyone critical of anything Israel might be doing.

 

[Virus]

Moving the goal posts again. I didn't say there is no anti-semitism, I said this is not all about hating people just because they are Jews.

Radio broadcast on "Voice of Free Arabism" by the Nazi-linked Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in 1947:

"In the face of this barbaric procedure by the British we think it best, if the life of the Egyptian nation is to be saved, that the Egyptians rise as one man to kill the Jews before they have a chance of betraying the Egyptian people. It is the duty of the Egyptians to annihilate the Jews and to destroy their property. … You must kill the Jews, before they open fire on you. Kill the Jews, who have appropriated your wealth and who are plotting against your security. Arabs of Syria, Iraq, and Palestine, what are you waiting for? The Jews are planning to violate your women, to kill your children and to destroy you. According to the Muslim religion, the defense of your life is a duty which can only be fulfilled by annihilating the Jews. This is your best opportunity to get rid of this dirty race, which has usurped your rights and brought misfortune and destruction on your countries. Kill the Jews, burn their property, destroy their stores, annihilate these base supporters of British imperialism. Your sole hope of salvation lies in annihilating the Jews before they annihilate you."

http://www.chroniclecareers.com/article/Hate-Radio-Nazi-Propaganda-in/49199/

 

[The Fool]

I am not awarding them anything, what I'm saying they don't need one, they will take action without anyone's consent but their own. Your use of the word "veto" makes it sound like they have a legitimate position in this conflict. They are thugs.

If you say that unless Hamas does X there will be no peace you are handing them a veto...they can veto any peace by simply not doing X.

Wow, this is going to be taken well in the Arab world...

possibly.....has this concerned you before?

 

[HoverBoarder]

Unless I am wrong, I thought that you were opposed to the two-State solution as the "full Apartheid solution."

I don't think that everyone has a solution to proclaim, I think that most people are interested in this problem so that they can use it for emotional or political ammunition.

If we spent a lot more time on talking about actual solutions to this problem, than we would be a lot closer to actually finding a solution.

I believe its time for an externally led imposed solution as the participants are giving every indication that they may never be able to come up with a viable solution.

You mean the Arab states, or Iran? I say there has been enough outside influence as it is.

No....I mostly mean the US, and the EU with Military support under the UN.

Wow, this is going to be taken well in the Arab world...

possibly.....has this concerned you before?

Well I did ask if you had any solutions to this...

The problem is that it would not just be the Arab world who would object to that plan, the Israelis would object, a lot of the UN, China, Russia, the EU, the US, and pretty much a large portion of the world would object, some maybe even violently.

That would be taking a bad situation and making it much worse.

 

[HoverBoarder]

I know discrimination and a disparity exists between the groups of people residing in Israel (and only in Israel, we're not talking about the needed separation between the Palestinian Arabs and the Jews and Arabs holding Israeli citizenship/permanent residency status in the disputed territories) and that there should be a solution to close this gap.

And to tell you the truth regarding gaps in all the aforementioned talking points, in Israel's 60+ years existing as a modern democratic state, it has made greater strides compared to other more developed states/countries/republics/etc. classified as 'more free' under Freedomhouse and other organizations.

As for the article mentioning the '20+ laws', you have to take into account the fact that this is an NGO with a political platform and, as stated in my previous reply, has tried, and failed in many regards, to attribute these laws as government sponsored discrimination, ie land-ownership, education, civil service, laws/rights regarding religious freedoms, etc. This is the point that I've been getting at. If you cannot see the vital difference, then perhaps its still not time to move on....

Well I do definitely agree that Israel has a lot of strides as one of the most just and fair Democratic semi-Theocracies in the region, and it does have a lot of freedoms and protections compared to other States/Republics/Countries/etc around the world as well.

Also, while there are laws in Israel that result in more discrimination compared to if they were not implemented, some of them do valid reasons for existing.

I do however think that some of the laws are unsustainable, and that a larger solution that addresses more long term solutions with the Israeli Arabs as well as the Palestinians would be advantageous for Israel.

 

[Virus]

A theocracy is a state ruled by clerics. Rabbis do not rule Israel.

 

[a_unique_person]

Radio broadcast on "Voice of Free Arabism" by the Nazi-linked Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in 1947:



http://www.chroniclecareers.com/article/Hate-Radio-Nazi-Propaganda-in/49199/

He called the British Barbaric? I didn't know he hated whites.

 

[a_unique_person]

OMFG, you're actually using a story of an incident from over 2,000 years ago as evidence of something today...

I'm trying to establish some basic concepts about what it means to be human and human rights. The concept I was illustrating was that nationalism and self determination can be demonstrated to have existed long before Europeans turned up, as claimed by Virus. I guess this is what BJM would call backpedalling, completely missing the point is more like it.

 

[JihadJane]

Oh a zinger, much better than actually addressing the point.

I have already addressed your catch-all shame theory in another thread. You didn't respond. You were, apparently, more interested in calling me a terrorist sympathizer or some such comforting blame label.

 

[Virus]

I'm trying to establish some basic concepts about what it means to be human and human rights. The concept I was illustrating was that nationalism and self determination can be demonstrated to have existed long before Europeans turned up, as claimed by Virus. I guess this is what BJM would call backpedalling, completely missing the point is more like it.

Can you name a great Arab nationalist leader prior to the colonial period?

 

[a_unique_person]

Can you name a great Arab nationalist leader prior to the colonial period?

Do I have to?

 

[IDB87]

So it wasn't about them determining for themselves about the right to follow their own religion? It was and still is, for religious Jews, an important part of defining themselves.

Self-determination, the way you were using it, had nothing to do with the first Jewish Revolt.

You should explain why you think it does.