General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[applecorped]

It seems like the biggest impediment to the Palestinians getting a State is that Hamas and other Palestinian groups are unwilling to live next to living Jewish people.

This^^^^

 

[The Fool]

This^^^^

don't agree....Hamas can veto the process only if they are given a veto. I believe its time for an externally led imposed solution as the participants are giving every indication that they may never be able to come up with a viable solution.

 

[Pardalis]

don't agree....Hamas can veto the process only if they are given a veto.

They don't need to be asked a "veto", Hamas is quite happy to forcefully apply their "veto" with terror attacks.

I believe its time for an externally led imposed solution

You mean the Arab states, or Iran? I say there has been enough outside influence as it is.

 

[HoverBoarder]

actual solutions are not difficult to put together, everyone has a solution to proclaim. Mine is not all that much different to yours.

Unless I am wrong, I thought that you were opposed to the two-State solution as the "full Apartheid solution."

I don't think that everyone has a solution to proclaim, I think that most people are interested in this problem so that they can use it for emotional or political ammunition.

If we spent a lot more time on talking about actual solutions to this problem, than we would be a lot closer to actually finding a solution.

The fact that most people who discuss this problem in any forum, chatroom, or Country are a lot more interested in casting blame on one side or another for their own purposes, rather than actually working to find a solution tells a lot about how most people are more interested in using this for their own gain than actually helping.

At the moment I am attempting to lead people away from some bizzare concept that unlike all other humans in the world Palestinians have some diminished desire for self determination.

Why? You don't seem to be convincing anyone, they don't seem to be convincing you, and this does nothing to actually help the Palestinians.

 

[JihadJane]

Unless I am wrong, I thought that you were opposed to the two-State solution as the "full Apartheid solution."

I don't think that everyone has a solution to proclaim, I think that most people are interested in this problem so that they can use it for emotional or political ammunition.

If we spent a lot more time on talking about actual solutions to this problem, than we would be a lot closer to actually finding a solution.

The fact that most people who discuss this problem in any forum, chatroom, or Country are a lot more interested in casting blame on one side or another for their own purposes, rather than actually working to find a solution tells a lot about how most people are more interested in using this for their own gain than actually helping.

Second-hand, amateur psychology strikes again!

Why? You don't seem to be convincing anyone, they don't seem to be convincing you, and this does nothing to actually help the Palestinians.

How does posting on JREF help the Palestinians?

 

[The Fool]

Why? You don't seem to be convincing anyone, they don't seem to be convincing you, and this does nothing to actually help the Palestinians.

I disagree. I believe that if left unchallenged these opinions grow to be accepted "truisms" Unfortunately one of the downsides of scepticism is the need to constantly and patiently refute faith based belief systems and prejudice.

 

[The Fool]

They don't need to be asked a "veto", Hamas is quite happy to forcefully apply their "veto" with terror attacks.

there is violence now, there will be violence during the transition to statehood, there will be violence for sometime after.....now explain to me again why you are awarding Hamas a veto?

You mean the Arab states, or Iran? I say there has been enough outside influence as it is.

No....I mostly mean the US, and the EU with Military support under the UN.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Second-hand, amateur psychology strikes again!

Oh a zinger, much better than actually adressing the point.

How does posting on JREF help the Palestinians?

Working to find realistic solutions to help this problem no matter where they are helps.

Using the death and pain of those suffering for political ammunition does not.

Everyone has a "right" and "wrong," but it takes real courage to see what the opposite side considers "right" and "wrong" and work to make real peace:



http://www.seedsofpeace.org/asel10/letters

30/3/1976. Nothing but anger that day brings to my people's mind. Youm El-Ard they call it in Arabic, or "Land Day." Nothing but memories from that sad day when a group of Israeli soldiers tried to kick the local citizens out of the village. What village was that? It was my village. "Arrabeh" they call it. But back then, people knew nothing but bloodshed, and losing those who are close to them.

As this day has come like any other year, I should fulfill my duty as an Arab and bring their memories to life. We should never forget, but we should forgive. Twenty-two years since it happened, and each time, people know nothing but madness, and violence of that day.

As for the years I saw, this anger came from the fathers to the fathers of those people. For somehow most of us don't know what happened that day. Like I said, it became a duty. And it's our job to be there when they bring their memories to life. We should never forget, but we should forgive. They will say they fought bravely. They protected their land. They died for a reason. But I think nothing is worth dying for. But sometimes it's the only way to save others. What can I say for a mother who lost her son, or a sister who lost a brother? I stand worthless to bring them back, but powerful enough to bring their memories back by not forgetting them.

Eight months ago I went to this camp. It was nice: Jewish people, Arabs from some countries, some Americans too. During those 40 days I spent there, those people became my friends—not for what they are, but who they are. I didn't see them as Israelis, or Jordanians, but as Sa’ad, and Ned, and Tim. They became my friends and a heart is where you keep them. For 40 days I learnt who those soldiers were who tried to kick us out, and I learnt who these people were that I lived with for 40 days.

Now I know who my friends are. In a few years from now they will become soldiers. They will go to the army to protect their families. But will they stay the same? Will they be the same Edi or Tzakhi that I knew? Will they be the same? What will happen if they become like those soldiers? And duty will call them for what they call "protection"—what then? Will they be the same? That's an answer that only time can answer. But until then, they will be the same for me.

The same people I lived with for 40 days. The same people I played with. The same people I shared my thoughts and feelings with, and so they did too. What I learnt in camp was priceless; we were all the same, so nothing else matters. But what I learnt in camp only showed up here eight months later: today on Youm El-Ard. Today I will know what Seeds of Peace really gave me. I will know what to do when someone will call my friends "killers" or "murderers." No friend of mine is a killer, and I'm not a friend of one either.

Today I will be asked to choose between what they call "protecting and remembering" and between what they call "forgiving." I will be asked to choose. And I will.

Will my choice be the right choice, be the right thing to do, or will it be the wrong thing to do? Well a friend of mine once said: "Out beyond ideas of right-doing and wrong-doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there." And I will be there, and I will see you when you get there. For the thoughts that are around me and the feelings that guard me, I won't forget a friend's words, and I will remember his words, by making others remember mine.

I will go on. I will make this planet a better place to live and I will go on. For all the souls who only saw pain and sorrow in their eyes; for the souls who will never see a pain of another soul, I promise you I will go on. Until we meet in the field, my friend, take care.

 

[Virus]

Then why did the Jews revolt against Roman Rule? Self determination had not been invented yet by Europeans.

The American constitution claims not to invent human rights, but merely to list them.

I said nationalism, not self-determination.

 

[Mycroft]

no...I am questioning your null hypotheses.....

Gawd this is tedious!

I'm not the one putting forth a hypothesis. You are. Present evidence for it, please.

The Queen of Australia is the Queen of Australia. Did you not know this? who do you think is the queen of australia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II

Because not every part of the British Empire wanted independence.

 

[The Fool]

Gawd this is tedious!

I'm not the one putting forth a hypothesis. You are. Present evidence for it, please.

ok...I'm only going to say this one more time..

The desire for self determination is inherrant in populations of stateless people under foreign control....always has been. However the people that seek to delegitamize palestinians want to point to one single period in their history and demand that evidence be produced that indicates that this desire existed during the is one particular period......Requests for what sort of evidence they would expect to see is met with stoney silence.....How would the palestinians have expressed this view? Maybe their representatives in the Ottoman government would have spoken up? Maybe they would have posted blogs on the internet come on guys.....what sort of stuff do you want????

They certainly expressed this view as soon as a forum was available....but no, this apparently is no evidence that the view existed before....apparently the desire for self determination just sprung into reality when the british arrived....they must have really loved the ottomans eh?



I certainly hope you draw some comfort from this pointless carry on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II

Because not every part of the British Empire wanted independence.

they all got it, can you list the ones that didn't want it (presumably it was forced on them?)

 

[Mycroft]

ok...I'm only going to say this one more time..

The desire for self determination is inherrant in populations of stateless people under foreign control....always has been.

Alright, prove that. How badly do the citizens of Guam want independence? Puerto Rico? Alaska? Hawaii? California? How strong is the independence movement of aboriginal Australians?

You of all people should know this. When do Australians celebrate their Independence day? Oh wait, they don't. Your own desire for independence from the British Empire was so strong that you waited until 1986, and don't even commemorate the day. Your big national holiday, Anzac Day, celebrates your going off to fight for the British Empire. Not a peep about your yearning to be free from them.

You are so full of dooky. This is why the rule is the one who makes the assertions provides the evidence for them. To prevent people from talking out their arse, just like you are here and now.

 

[Skeptic]

A few notes.

1). When asked to give evidence of Palestinian nationalism during the Ottoman times, the answer of one poster here is that he has no such evidence but that there just HAD to be such nationalism because of, in effect, the eternal human fight for freedom. By the same logic, there simply HAD to be a large movement in 1984 in Wisconsin to secede from the union, because they just HAD to feel opressed by the evil federal government, and doesn't everybody want freedom? Clearly It is just that for some people the myth of the "poor opressed Palestinians who lived there forever" is so strong that facts -- the lack of Palestinian nationalism in the Ottoman times -- means nothing, and must be explained away with excuses made up on the spot. Palestinian nationalism simply HAD to exist in the Ottoman times, lest this worldview be proven wrong; therefore, it did.

2). Another claim was that "Black September" -- 100 years after the Ottoman period -- was a "protest against losing transjordan". In reality it was an attempt by the Jordanians to fight back against constant terrorist attacks by the PLO and its head terrorist, Yasser "Peace for us means the elimination of Israel" Arafat. Again, reality -- and obvios reality at that -- is ignored in favor of the pleasing myth.

3). HoverBoarder and I disagree on some details, but the main disagreement is my pessimism over his optimism. He thinks people meeting each other and living together will eventually result in de facto peace, much like (I presume) Catholics and Protestants live together in England today without anybody caring too much. Perhaps, perhaps... but while I agree that if *anything* will work this will, I am more pressimistic about the chances of it working is small, alas.

4). Why do so many left-wingers hate Israel? David Mamet recently raised an intriguing possiblity. Feeling self-satisfied in the safe, rich west is great if you have a group of people who suffer for you to observe, much like some Church fathers declared part of the joys of heaven is seeing others suffer in hell. But it has to come with a price: first, one must ignore reality and pretend the Palestinians are suffering intolerably, when the reality is very different; and one must find some bogeyman to blame -- the evil Israel -- so as to make one's pleasure at one's unjustified luck of being born in a rich, stable society feel morally acceptable. Well, it's a theory, anyway.

5). Some posters here constantly complain that they are NOT bigots against the Jews and/or Israel, they are just constantly "misundertood". Perhaps. But when everybody keeps "misunderstanding" you want Israel destroyed, perhaps it's not a misundesrtanding -- perhaps you simply cannot admit to yourself that's what you want.

 

[Virus]

I think peace is impossible because Arabs hate Jews so much they can't think straight. They can't even get along with each other, let alone with Jews. They tried many times to kill all the Jews but they failed.

 

[a_unique_person]

Black September was not a protest for losing the Transjordan. It was a reaction to the terrorist organization, the PLO and Fatah mainly, extorting, murdering, and kidnapping of both Palestinian refugees and Jordanians alike, the attempt of Arafat to create a state within a state in the Hashemite kingdom, sending of fedayeen into Israel to commit terrorist acts, and who can forget, the assassination attempts on King Abdullah by the Palestinian terrorist organizations.

What sort of a "King" was he? Not much, it was just a convenient invention from a few years ago when the British and other colonial powers made a complete mess of inventing new national boundaries that completelely ignored existing ethnic boundaries. You say that it's all just about hating Jews, but when Palestinians try to unite with others in Jordan, it's just a criminal act. The "King" was not a Jew, it is not all about Jews, despite the fiction that is being created here.

 

[Virus]

The PLO tried to overthrow the Jordanian government and got forcefully evicted.

They've only got their stupid selves to blame.

 

[a_unique_person]

The PLO tried to overthrow the Jordanian government and got forcefully evicted.

They've only got their stupid selves to blame.

IIRC, that's what happened to the Jews when they tried to take on the Romans. They similary didn't want to take on the whole government, just take back what they thought was theirs. I don't think they were stupid.

 

[a_unique_person]

I think peace is impossible because Arabs hate Jews so much they can't think straight. They can't even get along with each other, let alone with Jews. They tried many times to kill all the Jews but they failed.

I have never doubted the humanity of Jews. You seem to have a propblem with the humanity of Arabs.

 

[a_unique_person]

Whatever happened to talking about actual solutions to this problem?

If you think the treatment of the Palestinians are bad, and if others think that the stated goal of Hamas and other Palestinians to destroy Israel is bad, than what should be done to improve this situation?

I think that setting up a Palestinian State that is supported by Jordan, while Israel keeps some settlements in the WB and the Golan Heights, is maybe the best option. What do you think is the best option?

It seems like the biggest impediment to the Palestinians getting a State is that Hamas and other Palestinian groups are unwilling to live next to living Jewish people.

Do you think there is anything that can be done or should be done to address this problem?

That is certainly the narrative that is being created, such as

I think peace is impossible because Arabs hate Jews so much they can't think straight. They can't even get along with each other, let alone with Jews. They tried many times to kill all the Jews but they failed.

Palestinians never wanted self determination. They only live to hate Jews. They bring all their woes on themselves. When Arafat was alive, it was all his fault. Now that he's dead, there is always another Palestinian to blame. Can there be a 'should' with these preconditions.

 

[IDB87]

The desire for self determination is inherrant in populations of stateless people under foreign control....always has been.

This is not evidence of any sort of Nationalist movement or self-determination.

Try again.