Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[lionking]

You are the guys who put the need for a conspiracy on the table not me. And the last two posts are attacking the arguer, but I will ignore it at this stage.

 

[PhantomWolf]

You made a "point" that you're unable to defend. How many more times are you going to repeat it?

I wonder if there is a name for a tactic of "bore the opponents to death by monotonous repeating of the same nonsense". Time to check RationalWiki again

I think that is the PRATT part, it's a case of make a claim, when challenged on the claim run for the protection of PRATT or just evade and dodge because any counter example to the claim "isn't on topic."

It's an extremely bankrupt way of being in a debate, and doesn't do the debater any justice.

The fact that those arguing for guilt have to resort to this sort of behaviour and only focus on the "lies" of AK and RS is also extremely telling. If there was real evidence that AK and RS took part in the murder those claiming guilt would be waving that and shouting it from the rooftops. The fact that they aren't proves pretty conclusively they don't actually have anything that can put the pair in the room with knives on their hands (not surprising since even the prosecution doesn't have that!) Thus instead they are left waving their hands and going "But they lied, so they must be the killers" and avoiding anything that challenges their ideas.

 

[PhantomWolf]

You are the guys who put the need for a conspiracy on the table not me. And the last two posts are attacking the arguer, but I will ignore it at this stage.

Yes, having your position pointed out and challenged is clearly just attacking you, quick call the martyr brigade.

I have never claimed "the need for a conspiracy" and I have never seen anyone else, apart from those arguing for guilt, claim there had to be a conspiracy. You are the one that keeps bringing it up currently.

Why do you attribute everything to the need to have a conspiracy and totally ignore a mixture of incompetence and confirmation bias leading to individuals "pushing" their results or misrepresenting the facts to get a better case?

An example again is the planted bullet casing in the Arthur Allen Thomas case, it was done by one cop who didn't tell amyone else. It was illegal, but it certainly wasn't the result of a conspiracy.

How do you explain the actions of the Polizia Scientifica? How do you explain the proven lies of the Police both to the press and the Courts?

 

[Katody Matrass]

You are the guys who put the need for a conspiracy on the table not me. And the last two posts are attacking the arguer, but I will ignore it at this stage.

I don't agree there is need for conspiracy neither did I "put it on the table".

So far you're the only person talking vast overarching conspiracies here. Many posters have repeatedly shown that it's nonsensical and unnecessary. You're unwilling to defend your position or engage in rational discussion. Pointing it out is not attacking the arguer. Your argument has been refuted and disposed. No amount of playing victim can change it.

 

[Fine]

Correction

_________________________

Kaosium,

And this from Peter Quennell a couple days ago:


"Readership of PMF and TJMK have been creeping up and up and both have been in the top 100,000 most read in the world of 50 million websites.
The conspiracy sites have never remotely equaled that.On TJMk in the recent period maybe 1000 a day are new readers and their initial stay there is a long one. Surely it is the same on PMF."


Errm,... according to HypeStat, the principal "conspiracy site"--Bruce Fisher's site---receives more unique daily visitors than either PMF or TJMF. And TJMK---Peter's site---don't get "maybe 1000 a day new readers." His TOTAL unique readers per day---new and repeat---is about 156. See: Independent Statistics

PMF = Perugiamurderfile.org
TJMK = Truejustice.org
Bruce's site = Injusticeinperugia.org

///

___________________________

Correction.

Apparently, HypeStat is not a reliable source of traffic information. Several hours ago this was the number of daily unique visitors for the websites:

Perugiamurderfile.org: 163
Truejustice.org: 156
Injusticeinperugia.org: 196

But now HypeStat is providing grossly different data for all three sites.

Please ignore my earlier post. My apologies to Peter Quennell. He may have provided accurate traffic information to these sites.

///

 

[lionking]

As much as the innocentisti would like it otherwise, this thread allows different opinions. I have an opinion that for the innocentisti narrative to play out would necessarily require a very unlikely conspiracy. That some here don't agree with this opinion causes me no discomfort at all. If some of you don't like me expressing an opinion, put me on ignore.

 

[Kaosium]

As much as the innocentisti would like it otherwise, this thread allows different opinions. I have an opinion that for the innocentisti narrative to play out would necessarily require a very unlikely conspiracy. That some here don't agree with this opinion causes me no discomfort at all. If some of you don't like me expressing an opinion, put me on ignore.

Lionking, the reason this event has garnered so much attention is quite possibly because something very unusual occurred. You call it a "very unlikely conspiracy" which if you think on it, would be the sort of thing to cause such an incredible debate. Think of it on those terms.

At one level it is very simple: The police arrested three people mistakenly, found the real perpetrator two weeks later, but instead of letting the three innocents go, just swapped one out for another and still pretended their original bizarre theory of the crime was possible. All the 'evidence' they'd arrested the three innocents on was mistakes or coincidence, none of it would be introduced into court. All the evidence gathered after the two innocents were not freed was also bogus, which you ought to know in your heart is true because no one will dare argue it anymore on a board with rationals.

Only one person committed this crime, everything suggests that, common sense, logic, and science too. The fact the police had to screw it up really badly to 'achieve' that result is not the fault of the poor college kids caged unjustly. It's bad enough they get persecuted for something they had no part of, but you even condemn them for being screwed over so badly you can barely even imagine it possible!

There's no way they can win with you, is there? They're doomed!

 

[Mary_H]

Maybe we should ask what is NOT her job based on what she didn't do.

It was not her job:
To take the body temperature.
To collect Meredith Kercher's clothing
To collect the Purse with blood near the zipper
To collect the rock
To do a confirming blood test in the lab on the luminol prints
To collect footprints from all the roommates
To test the inside of the knife


On the other hand, her job includes:
Gift wrapping a mop
Creating new forensic testing techniques while in the moment
Explaining to Judge Hellmann why she shouldn't need to turn over requested documents.

She also collected the toilet paper.

 

[PhantomWolf]

As much as the innocentisti would like it otherwise, this thread allows different opinions.

Hogwash, there is no debate without different opinions, but the issue that there is also no debate without facts either, and what people in this thread really want is you to back up your opinions with facts rather than you just making unsupported claims.

I have an opinion that for the innocentisti narrative to play out would necessarily require a very unlikely conspiracy.

Yeah we got that, even though you tried to blame everyone else for it. What we don't get is WHY. Why do you believe that "for the innocentisti narrative to play out would necessarily require a very unlikely conspiracy"? Why do you believe it has to be conspiracy over any other option?

That some here don't agree with this opinion causes me no discomfort at all.

That you have a different opinion is fine, but how about being willing to try backing it up with that little thing call evidence. This is a skeptics board after all, do you really think that you can get away with repeatedly expressing claims base solely on your opinion and not be called to produce the evidence backing it up? What evidence leads you to believe that "for the innocentisti narrative to play out would necessarily require a very unlikely conspiracy", and why is it more likely than a narrative based on incomptence and confirmation bias?

If some of you don't like me expressing an opinion, put me on ignore.

It has nothing to do with not liking you "expressing an opinion", it has to do with you repeatedly making claims and refusing to back them up. This is JREF, not ATS or GLP, unsupported claims are going to be challenged.

 

[lionking]

doomed![/i]

It doesn't matter if they win with me does it? I don't see how the prosecution case has been destroyed by the appeal. We'll soon find out.

 

[Chris C]

As much as the innocentisti would like it otherwise, this thread allows different opinions. I have an opinion that for the innocentisti narrative to play out would necessarily require a very unlikely conspiracy. That some here don't agree with this opinion causes me no discomfort at all. If some of you don't like me expressing an opinion, put me on ignore.

You still haven't explained why you think its some bogus innocentisti theory that Stefanoni hid tmb results and that its all part of an innocentisti conspiracy theory. So since Stefanoni did hide information from the defense or withhold information. Is that part of a conspiracy on Stefanoni's part? or Is that just someone trying to hide their BS results by withholding information that disproves the results generated and testified to by Stefanoni?

 

[PhantomWolf]

It doesn't matter if they win with me does it? I don't see how the prosecution case has been destroyed by the appeal. We'll soon find out.

You mean other than having their star witness who placed RS and AK outside the cottage totally discredited, seemingly having the only DNA evidence linking the pair to the murder discredited, likely having the ToDs given by the prosecution and Massei discredited, and likely having an electronic alibi for RS entered? What else do they have left?

 

[Katody Matrass]

That you have a different opinion is fine, but how about being willing to try backing it up with that little thing call evidence. This is a skeptics board after all, do you really think that you can get away with repeatedly expressing claims base solely on your opinion and not be called to produce the evidence backing it up?

lionking hasn't said his opinion is based on evidence or rational reasoning.

 

[Chris C]

It doesn't matter if they win with me does it? I don't see how the prosecution case has been destroyed by the appeal. We'll soon find out.

No eyewitness to break the Alibi.
No murder weapon that places Knox in the room.

I think the murder weapon (aka the knife) is what allowed the first jury to go down the bazaar path the prosecution presented. After all, if they kept the murder weapon, then they must be guilty. Even I would agree with that. Yet its plain as day, that the knife is not the murder weapon. Therefore, the defense basicly destroys the prosecutions case. There is no longer an eyewitness that puts them outside the house and no longer a murder weapon that puts them in the home on the night of the murder. All thats left is rudy trying to blame someone else for all his dna all over the house.

 

[lionking]

You mean other than having their star witness who placed RS and AK outside the cottage totally discredited, seemingly having the only DNA evidence linking the pair to the murder discredited, likely having the ToDs given by the prosecution and Massei discredited, and likely having an electronic alibi for RS entered? What else do they have left?

Well the appeal should be a slam dunk then. Let's see.

 

[Chris C]

Well the appeal should be a slam dunk then. Let's see.

I like your strawman. Whats it made out of? Perhaps you could generate some evidence that suggests that Knox/Sollecito took part in the murder. As of late the main arguments of the guilters are hands over their ears and claiming Knox/Sollecito wont win their appeals and/or Arguing how the legal system in Italy is designed to screw Knox/Sollecito on their appeal. Those seem to be the main arguments of guilt as of late.

 

[Kaosium]

It doesn't matter if they win with me does it?

I'm just saying, given the vote as a juror you'd take away their useful lives and cause them to be forever reviled because you can't imagine how the police could have messed up that badly. Is that your argument?

I don't see how the prosecution case has been destroyed by the appeal. We'll soon find out.

If you can't produce of a shred of evidence against them you'd dare argue, yet you still think them guilty, what does it matter? How much more can a case be destroyed?

What else could be done to convince a juror than that?

 

[lionking]

I like your strawman. Whats it made out of? Perhaps you could generate some evidence that suggests that Knox/Sollecito took part in the murder.

"Generate" evidence? Like you guys have "generated" evidence? I needed a laugh today.

 

[Chris C]

"Generate" evidence? Like you guys have "generated" evidence? I needed a laugh today.

Still avoiding evidence. Keep up that strawman. Surely after 20,000+ posts you realise that all your doing is actually avoiding attacking the evidence head on. Instead you just laugh, and put your hands over your eyes.

 

[lionking]

Still avoiding evidence. Keep up that strawman.

So what evidence have you personally generated Chris?