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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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a_unique_person said:
There was a very visible attempt at self determination during the ottoman empire, it ended in an act of genocide. Other visible attempts waited till there was the possibility of surviving.
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That's more revisionism. The Armenians were looking for equality, not independence.
 
a_unique_person said:
You may as well say that because the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto went along with internment without a violent response, they agreed with it, until the end when they did fight back.
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So while we wait for evidence of your other claims, is it too much to ask that you provide evidence that the Palestinians were living in ghettos under Ottoman rule? Because if you can't, your post is going to look awfully anti-semitic.
 
Mycroft said:
Except what he's received is just your speculation. You and AUP assert there was a Palestinian nationalist movement during Ottoman times because it suits you to do so, but you haven't shown any evidence.
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no....sorry. I believe this all comes about due to the attempts to paint the Palestinians as people who are and were always content with vassalage.....Its a handy belief when that is what you have planned for them in the future.
 
The Fool said:
no....sorry. I believe this all comes about due to the attempts to paint the Palestinians as people who are and were always content with vassalage.....Its a handy belief when that is what you have planned for them in the future.
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This is a fairly poor attempt to slur those who don't hold your evidence-free "belief". I hope you realize that.
 
mortimer said:
This is a fairly poor attempt to slur those who don't hold your evidence-free "belief". I hope you realize that.
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its an "evidence free" belief is it? That Palestinians under ottoman rule were happy smiling people holding hands? Happy with ottoman rule.....ooops sorry. Don't need to provide evidence for THAT do we. Default view for Pallys is that don't mind that sort of thing eh?


The fact that throughout history people under foreign rule have yearned for independence makes no difference, Pallys must be different....they must be quite contented with that sort of thing.

As soon as forums were available (under british rule) The calls for this Independence occurred.


Now lets consider.....was this desire for independence non existent under the ottomans and suddenly materialized under the british or was it always there but suppressed under the ottomans.

but once again....the belief that Palestinians, unlike all other humans in history, couldn't care less about self determination is handy when your goal is to rationalize their continued subjugation.
 
The Fool said:
no....sorry. I believe this all comes about due to the attempts to paint the Palestinians as people who are and were always content with vassalage.....Its a handy belief when that is what you have planned for them in the future.
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Straw-man. I never made any claims about Palestinians and their feelings about being vassals. You can't even prove they considered themselves to be vassals.

Armenians were discriminated against because they were Armenians and non-Muslim. The Arabs of the Levant region didn't have that problem. If you want to make claims about how they felt or what they wanted, you gotta pony up some evidence. Your speculation and personal belief doesn't cut it.
 
mortimer said:
So while we wait for evidence of your other claims, is it too much to ask that you provide evidence that the Palestinians were living in ghettos under Ottoman rule? Because if you can't, your post is going to look awfully anti-semitic.
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It's not, unless you are feeling in a vindictive mood. People under tyranny often aquiesce, it's got nothing to do with being Jewish, or Palestinian, it's a rational response to wanting to avoid being shot by doing what you are told to do. The latent resentment to tyranny is often revealed in an explosive response, when opportunity or trigger presents itself. In the case of the Warsaw uprising, it appears to have been a case of 'on your feet or on your knees'. They were probably going to die anyway, so they made at least a token response. In the case of the Arabs in general, WWI was the trigger. In recent years in the Arab world, the fall of one dictator has released pent up resentment and anger in other nearby countries. The anger in Libya has not been non existent and only magically appeared overnight, it's been there a long time.
 
AUP, no amount of backpeddling, or peddling in various directions, is going to take away from the fact that you haven't provided one sliver of evidence to support your claim. Neither will the abundant use of historical revisionism (as Mycroft pointed out), fallacies, and deflections.
 
What revisionism? The revisionism seems to be that Arabs are a unique strain of human that have no desire for self determination, but are some sort of submissive puppets.

What backpedalling. Your accusations of backpedalling usually constitute misrepresenting what I say, then complaining when I point out you misrepresented what I said.
 
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The Ottoman Empire called for a military jihad against France, Russia and Great Britain in November 1914. How did this affect subsequent Allied campaigns in the Middle East? David Woodward charts the demise of an empire and a dramatic shift in the region's balance of power.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/middle_east_01.shtml

What happened to the call to Jihad of the puppets? We know the answer to that.
 
a_unique_person said:
What revisionism? The revisionism seems to be that Arabs are a unique strain of human that have no desire for self determination, but are some sort of submissive puppets.
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The Ottomans were just another Big Boss in a succession of Big Bosses able to impose their will.

What does self determination mean in the context of dis-unified tribes competing for dominance?
 
If the Palestinians were so afraid to show nationalism due to the Armenian massacres, fearing the same fate, how come Jews at the time did how their nationalism in the ottoman empire by emigrating to Palestine? How come the Arabs in general, as opposed to Palestinian nationality in particular, showed their nationaliy in fighhting the ottomans in wwi? I say the claim the Palestinian nationality exited and it's just fear that made them not show it for 30 years sounds like an excuse made up on the spot to explain the lack of Palestinian nationalism at the time
 
a_unique_person said:
It's not, unless you are feeling in a vindictive mood. People under tyranny often aquiesce, it's got nothing to do with being Jewish, or Palestinian, it's a rational response to wanting to avoid being shot by doing what you are told to do. The latent resentment to tyranny is often revealed in an explosive response, when opportunity or trigger presents itself. In the case of the Warsaw uprising, it appears to have been a case of 'on your feet or on your knees'. They were probably going to die anyway, so they made at least a token response. In the case of the Arabs in general, WWI was the trigger. In recent years in the Arab world, the fall of one dictator has released pent up resentment and anger in other nearby countries. The anger in Libya has not been non existent and only magically appeared overnight, it's been there a long time.
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So you don't have any evidence that the Palestinians under Ottoman rule were living in ghettos like Warsaw. Check.

And later it sure seemed like they weren't all that interested in self-determination since they turned down the partition plan.
 
a_unique_person said:
What revisionism? The revisionism seems to be that Arabs are a unique strain of human that have no desire for self determination, but are some sort of submissive puppets.

What backpedalling. Your accusations of backpedalling usually constitute misrepresenting what I say, then complaining when I point out you misrepresented what I said.
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Ta. No evidence. That one's done and dusted as there was no call for self-determination under the Ottoman empire by the Palestinian Arabs or any caliphate.

As for revisionism, reply to Mycroft's post, oh wait, conveniently he's on ignore. It was in reference to the fallacious Armenian example.
 
The Fool said:
...Default view for Pallys is that don't mind that sort of thing eh?..
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I got a better idea. Let's start with the assumption that there is no default position and that if you want to make assertions of any kind, you need to provide evidence for it.

That way we cut out this nonsense where you make bald-faced assertions and when called on your BS, instead of providing evidence you just assign the exact opposite position to someone and mock them for it.
 
mortimer said:
So you don't have any evidence that the Palestinians under Ottoman rule were living in ghettos like Warsaw. Check.
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They were living under the rule of a totalitarian state, they were part of a centrally managed, non democratic empire. The call to jihad didn't work, did it? The call to jihad was ignored and they fought back against their oppressors. Unlike the unfortunate Jews in the Warsaw ghetto, they did have chance at success, now that the British were fighting against the Ottoman empire, after initially being in support of it as a means of keeping the Russian empire in check. The comparison between the Warsaw ghetto and the Palestinians under the rule of the Ottoman empire was not that they were equivalent, but that they demonstrated that people will submit to coercive force even when it is not in their best interests just so they can stay alive.

Once again, the point I make is ignored, misrepresented, deliberately or through stupidity, I don't know why, I clarify the point, then out come accusations of 'backpeddalling'.
And later it sure seemed like they weren't all that interested in self-determination since they turned down the partition plan.
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:confused: They turned down the partition plan precisely because it interfered with their right to self determination. The partition took away half of what they wanted for their state.
 
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a_unique_person said:
They were living under the rule of a totalitarian state, they were part of a centrally managed, non democratic empire. The call to jihad didn't work, did it? The call to jihad was ignored and they fought back against their oppressors. Unlike the unfortunate Jews in the Warsaw ghetto, they did have chance at success, now that the British were fighting against the Ottoman empire, after initially being in support of it as a means of keeping the Russian empire in check. The comparison between the Warsaw ghetto and the Palestinians under the rule of the Ottoman empire was not that they were equivalent, but that they demonstrated that people will submit to coercive force even when it is not in their best interests just so they can stay alive.
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But you've provided zero evidence that the Palestinians were living under "coercive force", or anything you claim that followed. Provide evidence, please.

a_unique_person said:
Once again, the point I make is ignored, misrepresented, deliberately or through stupidity, I don't know why, I clarify the point, then out come accusations of 'backpeddalling'.
:confused:
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The point you continue to attempt to make has yet to be backed up with any evidence. Until you do so, your position will continue to be questioned.

And calling those who question your position because of lack of evidence "stupid" is really a breach of the MA, though I won't report it this time.

a_unique_person said:
They turned down the partition plan precisely because it interfered with their right to self determination. The partition took away half of what they wanted for their state.
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How does the size of the state interfere with their "right to self determination"? Are you suggesting they should have got everything they asked for in the name of "self determination"? No compromise? Where would you have sent the Jews?
 
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