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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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a_unique_person said:
The aboriginals killed immigrants. The American indians killed immigrants. There are numerous examples of indigineous people killing or attacking those who considered themselves immigrants. It's not an unusual event in history. They were attacked because those immigrants were seen by the indigineous as being invaders. Once again, hardly an unknown event in history. Nothing at all to do with being Jewish or not, but self determination.
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Your examples have nothing to do with Jews immigrating to Palestine and exchanging money for land.

Your examples have everything to do with immigrants forcing the indigenous off their land at gun point and taking the land by force.
 
stokes234 said:
Well, that's what I get for jumping in halfway through a discussion.
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Settlements are a mixed issue. Some of them are built on legally purchased lands, others were illegally built on government owned lands and later recognized (or not), and then there is the issue some settlements had security perimeters which were on confiscated Palestinian lands, but later the settlement expanded into those security perimeters.

The anti-Israel narrative wants to portray all settlements as having been built on stolen Palestinian lands, which is not true. At the same time, it's not true that all of the lands are legally purchased, some of the land is indeed "stolen" by any reasonable definition.

The real issues are complex. You have Israel having appropriated lands from absentee landowners, you have Arabs having ethnically cleansed Jews from lands they captured during Israel's war of independence, and you even have Palestinians-Muslims appropriating lands of Palestinian-Christians because...well, because they can.

Basically the anti-Israel types put the issue forward as a way to justify continued Palestinian violence. My opinion, and I think the opinion of reasonable people who really do want peace for both these peoples, is that the issues can't be straightened out until there is peace, then it will be possible to sort out who deserves what compensation for what loss.
 
a_unique_person said:
As I already pointed out, the Armenians tried that, and paid the price. The desire was quite plain when the British turned up in WWI.
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Again, where were the calls by Palestinian Arabs for self-determination under the Ottoman period?

Provide evidence or retract.
 
stokes234 said:
Is this really what is happening in israel/palestine? I thought the settlements were often against the wishes of people living there.
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And somehow what happened between 1948-1967 in Judea-Samaria/WB between Israel, Jordan and the Arab league is somehow completely forgotten...
 
bigjelmapro said:
Again, where were the calls by Palestinian Arabs for self-determination under the Ottoman period?

Provide evidence or retract.
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My guess is they would have published articles in their free press or possibly their representatives in the Ottoman government would have given speeches in the Ottoman parliament.

Or possibly Palestine residents would have blogged about it on the internet.

My guess is that there was no desire whatsoever to do anything other than live as vassals of the ottomans forever....its what palestinians are like....no desire for self determination as long as they have some Jews to hate.....sounds reasonable to me.
 
"Self-determination" doesn't even make sense for a disparate collection of feuding tribes jockeying for dominance.
 
a_unique_person said:
If they had, they would have faced genocide from the Ottomans. When the war started, Arabs in general, including Palestinians took the chance to get rid of them.
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I've asked for this evidence over a dozen times now. We'll (as in the others that have requested the same) just have to accept the fact that no such evidence exists and you're simply speculating.

Moving on....
 
bigjelmapro said:
I've asked for this evidence over a dozen times now. We'll (as in the others that have requested the same) just have to accept the fact that no such evidence exists and you're simply speculating.

Moving on....
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and you have recieved it. As soon as a forum was available the proposition was there. How do you imagine the call for self determination would have been visible under the ottomans?
 
The Fool said:
and you have recieved it. As soon as a forum was available the proposition was there. How do you imagine the call for self determination would have been visible under the ottomans?
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Except what he's received is just your speculation. You and AUP assert there was a Palestinian nationalist movement during Ottoman times because it suits you to do so, but you haven't shown any evidence.
 
bigjelmapro said:
I've asked for this evidence over a dozen times now. We'll (as in the others that have requested the same) just have to accept the fact that no such evidence exists and you're simply speculating.

Moving on....
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You may as well say that because the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto went along with internment without a violent response, they agreed with it, until the end when they did fight back.
 
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