Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

No. I think Stefanoni's results are good in the sense that what she found on the knife is Meredith's DNA.
But how, when and why it got there is not clear for me.

You're sure she didn't find it in her machine or lab instead ?

As for Raffaele's "pricking" explanation, the provenly false explanation itself is the problem.
He lied again and this time he definitely was not stoned.
What is his excuse?

Exactly, I wanted to know how you reconcile it with the idea that the knife has nothing to do with the crime.

 

[bolint]

You're sure she didn't find it in her machine or lab instead

Sure, of course, I can't be, but I don't think it was lab flop.

 

[Paninaro]

Don't know yet.

But look at the list of Amanda's 8 connections allegedly made from Raffaele's house (the last one may have been on the street according to her narrative):

(Source: Massei)
(time, contact, tower, sector)
Nov 1
20:18 Lumumba Aquila S3
20:35 Lumumba Berardi S7
Nov 2
12:07 Meredith Aquila S9
12:08 Filomena Aquila S3
12:11 Meredith Aquila S3
12:11 Meredith Aquila S3
12:12 Filomena Aquila S3
12:20 Filomena Aquila S9

There is only one among them, the 20:35 SMS to Lumumba, with which it is corroborated by independent source (Popovic) that at that time she indeed was at Raffaele's place. And interestingly it is the only one that uses the best server for Raffaele's house (Berardi S7).
I find this amazing and quite unlikely to be a random communication situation.
(And I also find it rather strange that she went back to Raffaele before calling Meredith or Filomena)

What is amazing and unlikely about it? The Massei report clearly says "compatible with Sollecito’s house" for all of those calls.

Knox and Sollecito arrives back at the cottage together at approximately 12.30. At 12.35 Sollecito makes a call and Knox receives one. From that point on for all calls "the cell used is that on Piazza Lupattelli sector 7, according to Massei.

In Knox's narrative she returns to Sollecito's place at approximately 11.00 or shortly thereafter IIRC. They have lunch or late breakfast and apparently talk about the situation. At 12.07 Amanda calls Kercher's Ericsson phone from Sollecito's place at Corso Garibaldi.

What I find strange about Knox's calls is the fact that she doesn't try more frequently to get hold of Kercher. I can see how this raises some eyebrows. Personally I would have called a couple of times to be sure no-one answered. The only explanation I can come up with for that is that she feels that she has left the responsibility in the hands of Romanelli who is older and that she was not really that close to Meredith. Knox also relates the story of her phone calls to Meredith wrong in her email home, which also of course causes suspicions. But that could be an honest mistake.

E-mail:

he suggested i call one of my roommates, so i
called filomena. filomena had been at a party the night before with
her boyfriend marco (not the same marco who lives downstairs but we'll
call him marco-f as in filomena and the other can be marco-n as in
neighbor). she also told me that laura wasnt at home and hadnt been
because she was on business in rome. which meant the only one who had
spent the night at our house last night was meredith, and she was as
of yet unaccounted for. filomena seemed really worried, so i told her
id call meredith and then call her back. i called both of merediths
phones the english one first and last and the italian one between. the
first time i called the english phone is rang and then sounded as of
there was disturbance, but no one answered. i then calle the italian
phone and it just kept ringing, no answer. i called her english phone
again and this time an english voice told me her phone was out of
service. raffael and i gathered our things and went back to my house.

In reality Knox called Kercher before she called Romanelli.

The call to the Italian phone only last three seconds. It's located at the police station and is turned off. I suppose it's possible that it can still keep ringing, even though that sounds at bit strange too. But on the other hand: why would Knox lie about that?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Amanda was always with him

Well it is easy to correct it by claiming very clearly and pointedly that he did not say those words and Amanda was always with him.

Did Raffaele make such a clear claim?

Bolint,

Oggi. "La sera e la notte in cui è stata uccisa Meredith, lei e io eravamo a casa mia. Non siamo usciti."
Google Translation: "The evening and the night Meredith was killed, she and I were at my house. We are not leaving."

 

[Chris_Halkides]

whose pants are really on fire

No. I think Stefanoni's results are good in the sense that what she found on the knife is Meredith's DNA.
But how, when and why it got there is not clear for me.

As for Raffaele's "pricking" explanation, the provenly false explanation itself is the problem.
He lied again and this time he definitely was not stoned.
What is his excuse?

Bolint,

I cannot be certain he lied (as opposed to convincing himself of something that is not true), but i am willing to assume he lied for the purposes of discussion. He was told a nonsensical forensic result, and he made up a fib to try to explain it away. It was a stupid thing to do, nothing more. How do you explain all of the lies told by ILE? There were many more of those than those told by the defendants. My comment here linked back to some earlier discussions of them. I would include the pink bathroom photo as the moral equivalent of a lie.

 

[Dan O.]

Why? Why? Why?



It's a myth.
There is no such a thing as idle connection to a tower.
If your handset is not active (but of course switched on), it always measures the signals of up to 6 towers available and maintains a best quality candidate.
When it is paged either for talk or for SMS it answers it by connecting to that best candidate.
So at 20:15 when Lumumba's SMS arrived Amanda's phone connected to the server that was best candidate based on measurements of the last few minutes before that.

I'm going to assume that someone else told you this pack of lies and you are just repeating it because you haven't had the opportunity to verify it.

To continually reregister with the cell network every time the best reception changes to another tower would be an incredible waist of limited battery power and pollute the already congested airwaves. Cell phones are so conscious of conserving energy that that they schedule in advance when the towers can call them and then turn their receiver off except for the fraction of a second at the scheduled time to check if there is an incoming call or message. As long as they are still hearing the tower that they last registered with, they will not go through the overhead of activating their transmitter to change towers.

When the cell network has an SMS message to send to a phone, it simply sends it through the last tower that the phone was registered with. If the phone replies that it received the message, that's all there is to it.

Your description of tracking the best tower is what the phone does when there is an active call. The phone may then need to hand off the connection to another tower and needs to be prepared so there is no interruption. The latest generation of phones will even split the data stream between multiple towers to reduce data loss due to path interruptions. But SMS doesn't need any of this.

 

[Chris C]

What I find strange about Knox's calls is the fact that she doesn't try more frequently to get hold of Kercher. I can see how this raises some eyebrows. Personally I would have called a couple of times to be sure no-one answered. The only explanation I can come up with for that is that she feels that she has left the responsibility in the hands of Romanelli who is older and that she was not really that close to Meredith. Knox also relates the story of her phone calls to Meredith wrong in her email home, which also of course causes suspicions. But that could be an honest mistake.

How many times did Filomena call Meredith?

 

[RoseMontague]

Might I ask what happened after you reported this to your local police department and the FBI? These are very serious crimes (federal and state...depending on where you are) and I'm certain that after you filed charges these persons are now facing prison time if convicted. I hope you saved all the evidence to turn over to the prosecuting attorney.

Folks, no matter what side we are on this case, death threats and false accusations of crimes is wrong! Even if spartacus decides to remain anonymous during his/her upcoming long legal battle (understandable) let's support his/her struggle against these criminals.

Spartacus, considering the seriousness of the charges you make (threatening murder) I don't think it will be hard for your lawyer to convince a judge to get a warrent for the IP addresses of those who threatend to kill you.

I agree. I will follow Spartacus' legal case with great interest.

I guess I don't understand the logic. Is the fact that someone who is has been threatened choses to take no action make the threatening behavior somehow OK?

 

[RoseMontague]

Yes to both.
Amanda has alibi at 20:40, after that until about noon next day she has no alibi, except Raffaele's groggy claims.
He was found lying, evaluating his own earlier alibi statements as crap.

So what should I think about Amanda's alibi?

Actually Raffaele referred to his statement contradicting earlier alibi statements as crap.

I would say that the prosecution has to disprove the alibi, not just show that Amanda is not able to prove where she was at each point that evening. They have attempted to do so with the knife (that you don't believe is the murder weapon) and the drug dealing heroin addict park bench bum who sees invisible buses. Hmmmm.

 

[Rolfe]

Why is is still necessary for Amanda to prove what she was doing at any given time? What is the evidence that suggests she might have been present at the crime?

If there's none, you might as well be asking me to show what I was doing at that time.

Rolfe.

 

[Paninaro]

How many times did Filomena call Meredith?

Remember I think they are innocent, so I'm still on the side with the angels.

Well, it's my understanding that they decided that Knox was the one who was going to call Kercher and Romanelli's English was not top notch anyway, to say the least.

I'm not saying it's decisive as a sing of guilt or anything, but I would have called again as soon as I got to voicemail, if I really, really wanted to get hold of someone. I can see how this maybe could add to suspicions already held by the police. My interpretation is that Knox and Sollecito at this point had begun to realize something was very much amiss with Kercher. They had discussed what Knox had seen over their meal. But if they were innocent, which I think they were, they didn't yet think of murder. I think you don't jump to that conclusion easily, because the mind halts at thinking the worst.

What about the turned off phone that rang? Is that possible or is Knox's recollection wrong?

 

[Dan O.]

If the call transfers straight to voicemail, what's the point of calling again? it's not like the phone was just ringing and the person didn't hear it. Either the phone is off or the person is in the middle of a call. In the later case, they will get a notice that they missed the call and will be calling right back. If you sit there redialing the number, you will only make it more difficult for them to reach you.

 

[Chris C]

Remember I think they are innocent, so I'm still on the side with the angels.

Well, it's my understanding that they decided that Knox was the one who was going to call Kercher and Romanelli's English was not top notch anyway, to say the least.

I'm not saying it's decisive as a sing of guilt or anything, but I would have called again as soon as I got to voicemail, if I really, really wanted to get hold of someone. I can see how this maybe could add to suspicions already held by the police. My interpretation is that Knox and Sollecito at this point had begun to realize something was very much amiss with Kercher. They had discussed what Knox had seen over their meal. But if they were innocent, which I think they were, they didn't yet think of murder. I think you don't jump to that conclusion easily, because the mind halts at thinking the worst.

What about the turned off phone that rang? Is that possible or is Knox's recollection wrong?

The problem with anyone saying they would do it different IMO has no real bearing on guilt. How would they know they would do it different in Knox's situation. Why would knox need to keep calling Meredith over and over? Other than signs of a break in was Knox running under the assumption that Meredith was dead or just wanted to know where she was? How many times do you call someone that you barely know to ask them where they are at?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The problem with anyone saying they would do it different IMO has no real bearing on guilt. How would they know they would do it different in Knox's situation. Why would knox need to keep calling Meredith over and over? Other than signs of a break in was Knox running under the assumption that Meredith was dead or just wanted to know where she was? How many times do you call someone that you barely know to ask them where they are at?

Just a couple of points, obviously Filomena's actions are irrelevant in the context of Raffaele and Amanda’s current appeal. In addition, which one is it Meredith and Amanda got on really well and were good friends as many of Raffaele and Amanda’s supporters’ state or to quote you “How many times do you call someone that you barely know to ask them where they are at?”

If I were concerned for a friend and had seen what Amanda had described that morning, I would continue to call and each time my friend didn’t respond I would become more concerned, but that’s how I am, different strokes for different folks I guess!

 

[Kestrel]

Just a couple of points, obviously Filomena's actions are irrelevant in the context of Raffaele and Amanda’s current appeal. In addition, which one is it Meredith and Amanda got on really well and were good friends as many of Raffaele and Amanda’s supporters’ state or to quote you “How many times do you call someone that you barely know to ask them where they are at?”

If I were concerned for a friend and had seen what Amanda had described that morning, I would continue to call and each time my friend didn’t respond I would become more concerned, but that’s how I am, different strokes for different folks I guess!

In the days before answering machines, voice mail and caller ID you had to keep calling. Unless someone heard the ring and answered the phone, there was no way to know who was trying to call.

Young people who grew up with modern cell phones never learned to repeat a call. They understand that the other person's cell phone will inform them that a call was missed and provide the phone number, time and the name of the person calling,

 

[Chris C]

Just a couple of points, obviously Filomena's actions are irrelevant in the context of Raffaele and Amanda’s current appeal. In addition, which one is it Meredith and Amanda got on really well and were good friends as many of Raffaele and Amanda’s supporters’ state or to quote you “How many times do you call someone that you barely know to ask them where they are at?”

If I were concerned for a friend and had seen what Amanda had described that morning, I would continue to call and each time my friend didn’t respond I would become more concerned, but that’s how I am, different strokes for different folks I guess!

Knox did barely know Meredith. How long had they been roommates? You can say they where good friends all you want, but good friends don't murder each other over this load of crap the prosecution used as motive.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

In the days before answering machines, voice mail and caller ID you had to keep calling. Unless someone heard the ring and answered the phone, there was no way to know who was trying to call.

Young people who grew up with modern cell phones never learned to repeat a call. They understand that the other person's cell phone will inform them that a call was missed and provide the phone number, time and the name of the person calling,

A fair point; however, Amanda was concerned with what she had discovered that morning in the cottage and she also knew that her other housemates Filomena, Laura not to mention that the boys downstairs were also away for the holiday, so taking into consideration the numerous assertions or descriptions by Raffaele and Amanda’s supporters of the friendship that existed between Meredith and Amanda, it is not unreasonable to conclude that Amanda would have experienced a growing concern for her friend who Amanda knew would be alone at home. I am not suggesting that this makes her guilty just that Chris C comment seems inconsistent.

All I can say is that in those circumstances my number would have been all over Meredith’s UK and Italian phones, her voice mail inbox would have been full with messages from me, but like I said we’re all different, aren’t we?

PS
Chris C it is Raffaele and Amanda’ supporters who assert they were good friends.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Knox did barely know Meredith. How long had they been roommates? You can say they where good friends all you want, but good friends don't murder each other over this load of crap the prosecution used as motive.

I agree they barely knew each other and as such they weren’t friends.

 

[Draca]

All the contemporaneous Italian articles have the CCTV time reading as 20:43. I don't think they are adjusting back or forward at this early point 11-12 November 2007 articles. Any clue as to this picture:

http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/gallerie/cronaca/immagini-tv-perugia/2.html[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_383964e046a4b20413.jpg[/qimg]

http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/gallerie/cronaca/immagini-tv-perugia/2.html

http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11/se...iudice/professore-dal-giudice.html?ref=search

http://translate.google.com/transla...p://www.teatrodelmediterraneo.org/Giovani.htm

http://translate.google.com/transla...zioni/cronache/200711articoli/27519girata.asp

http://translate.google.com/transla...iudice/professore-dal-giudice.html?ref=search

Rose,

That photo is from the Nov 2 postal police / carabinieri arrival video

I found articles from Nov 2007 saying both 8:41 and 8:43

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

KevinLowe, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they also wrote to your employer; at least they threatened to. (ETA: Or whom they thought to be your employer.)

I can't confirm or deny that they made any attempts to contact anyone who might or might not have been my employer.

However they did make a determined effort to ascertain my identity, and I think it's naive to think that the PMF/TJMK crowd do that without the intent to do something about it once they ascertain it. Jackie/Treehorn/etc also made at least one statement indicative of a desire to inflict physical harm to my person, but I suspect that was empty bravado born of the safety of distance.

As I have commented before, the guilters are not just a group of people who are wrong in the face of the facts - homeopaths, Bigfooters, crystal healers and whatnot are all equally wrong but they aren't nearly as nasty about it. The guilters as a group harbour a hard core with the pathological viciousness and total lack of a functioning moral compass which you normally only see in worst-case cults like Scientology or hate groups like Stormfront.