Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Wow, another large bag argument. Remind me to take all of mine to Goodwill.

Are you implying that Amanda wore the same skirt the next day? After an alleged violent and bloody struggle? Was this part of the magic clean up as well?
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Here's Amanda in her white skirt, November 2, 2007....

ansa_11580548_41450.jpg


The person seen approaching the cottage in the video, November 1, 2007, is not wearing this article of clothing. (Unless, on November 1, the skirt was soaking wet as a result of a plumbing accident.)

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There isn't a single piece of evidence that proves this one way or the other. What we have is incomplete information and some apparent inconsistencies or contradictions.

What I have done to try and find the best compromise is to gather all the reports that relate to the CCTV timing and order them by the date they were made. Then I looked at this data to see when things changed and what type of evidence was behind the changes.

From looking at the collection of records I came up with a hypothesis to explain it. The hypothesis is simple: the police made an initial mistake recording the direction of the offset of the CCTV clock. Everything else falls out as a consequence of this mistake.

Now, I don't claim that this hypothesis is the absolute truth. It could be total bunk and one frame from the CCTV camera could demolish it. It's just that this is the best hypothesis I have that explains the data we can see.

Okay, this perhaps explains it! I thought this was what everyone was talking about, that it was in fact proven somewhere that the cops had made a mistake in the direction of the time differential.
 
China to L.A. is just a spin

can you show any links of them going after the innocence project? That would be an awesome display of crazy! I'm assuming its more something you'd have to piece together from posts, but if there were a straight up link that would be uber
pipelineaudio,

I don't have a link handy, but I can attest to having read things along these lines at PMF. There was even a little bit of discussion here at JREF that was probably contemporaneous.
 
Following on from what I was saying yesterday, I had a read round some of this. I'm even more baffled by the attitudes of those pushing the "guilt" line.

What is their connection to the case? Who are they to write to people's employers and try to get them silenced for expressing an opinion that differs from their own? Why are they championing this hate campaign, when the Italian criminal justice system seems to have the situation under control anyway (from their point of view)?

Do they go after everyone involved in the Innocence Project, or MOJO, to insist that nothing should ever be published suggesting someone convicted of a crime might actually have been innocent? And dammit, the people these organisations champion have actually been through the full legal process and been confirmed as convicted!

Amanda Knox is not the only accused or convicted person who has been the centre of a campaign suggesting there has been a miscarriage of justice. It's actually quite common. I never heard of anyone being threatened like this in any other case.

It's really quite bizarre.

Rolfe.

I had death threats brought against me and I asked the moderator of PMF to ban the offender and she refused, using the rationale that she had had threats brought against her. This person also made threats to charge me with crimes. She has made a big deal about being a victim of these threats herself however as far as I can tell this was someone who said people in her neighborhood should exercise their rights to bear arms (presumably in a defensive capacity). Her failure to ban someone making terroristic threats against me meant that she lost all credibility in my eyes.

I was also threatened by Harry Rag/The Machine to go to my university employer and make complaints against me and request to remove me from employment. This is not the first time this has happened to me and these threats have limited effect with me.

Pepperdine University received a barrage of emails and letters which led them to fire Steve Moore for speaking out as a forensic expert about the case. Shame on them. History willl show they were wrong, and cowards.

There are about 10 professional people who have had direct assaults on their career or family. The time has come to stand up to these cowards.
 
unlikely

So the pair was so suprised by the arrival of the Postal Police that they immediately decided to lie and say to the Postal Police that they had called the Carabinieri. Knox and Sollecito then proceeded to make this lie come true by sneeking inte a room for Sollecito to call 112? It doesn't seem very likely compared to the scenario where Sollecito already called 112.
Paninaro,

Good finds. I think that you have accurately delineated the sheer unlikeliness of Raffaele's making the call after the Postal Police arrived.
 
I had death threats brought against me and I asked the moderator of PMF to ban the offender and she refused, using the rationale that she had had threats brought against her. This person also made threats to charge me with crimes. She has made a big deal about being a victim of these threats herself however as far as I can tell this was someone who said people in her neighborhood should exercise their rights to bear arms (presumably in a defensive capacity). Her failure to ban someone making terroristic threats against me meant that she lost all credibility in my eyes.

I was also threatened by Harry Rag/The Machine to go to my university employer and make complaints against me and request to remove me from employment. This is not the first time this has happened to me and these threats have limited effect with me.

Pepperdine University received a barrage of emails and letters which led them to fire Steve Moore for speaking out as a forensic expert about the case. Shame on them. History willl show they were wrong, and cowards.

There are about 10 professional people who have had direct assaults on their career or family. The time has come to stand up to these cowards.

Well, if someone chooses to go after the owner of TrueJustice, it looks like he'll have to find a lawyer...... being that it's obvious now he doesn't have one.;)
 
grab bag

Wow, another large bag argument. Remind me to take all of mine to Goodwill.

Are you implying that Amanda wore the same skirt the next day? After an alleged violent and bloody struggle? Was this part of the magic clean up as well?
RoseMontague,

I will grab my bags and be right behind you, and I will fill mine with my Harry Potter books and films. They have a Satanic influence.
 
I had death threats brought against me and I asked the moderator of PMF to ban the offender and she refused, using the rationale that she had had threats brought against her. This person also made threats to charge me with crimes.

Might I ask what happened after you reported this to your local police department and the FBI? These are very serious crimes (federal and state...depending on where you are) and I'm certain that after you filed charges these persons are now facing prison time if convicted. I hope you saved all the evidence to turn over to the prosecuting attorney.

Folks, no matter what side we are on this case, death threats and false accusations of crimes is wrong! Even if spartacus decides to remain anonymous during his/her upcoming long legal battle (understandable) let's support his/her struggle against these criminals.

Spartacus, considering the seriousness of the charges you make (threatening murder) I don't think it will be hard for your lawyer to convince a judge to get a warrent for the IP addresses of those who threatend to kill you.
 
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There are about 10 professional people who have had direct assaults on their career or family. The time has come to stand up to these cowards.

Missed this part of your post. What are these professional folks going to do?
 
Following on from what I was saying yesterday, I had a read round some of this. I'm even more baffled by the attitudes of those pushing the "guilt" line.

What is their connection to the case? Who are they to write to people's employers and try to get them silenced for expressing an opinion that differs from their own? Why are they championing this hate campaign, when the Italian criminal justice system seems to have the situation under control anyway (from their point of view)?

Do they go after everyone involved in the Innocence Project, or MOJO, to insist that nothing should ever be published suggesting someone convicted of a crime might actually have been innocent? And dammit, the people these organisations champion have actually been through the full legal process and been confirmed as convicted!

Amanda Knox is not the only accused or convicted person who has been the centre of a campaign suggesting there has been a miscarriage of justice. It's actually quite common. I never heard of anyone being threatened like this in any other case.

It's really quite bizarre.

Rolfe.

It has moved some to wonder, indeed.

One possibility is that we're just dealing with a couple of people who are unhinged, and a cadre of followers who haven't quite realised it yet. For example after a long time where the guilters ran with a meme that anyone who was pro-innocence was almost certainly a fat, pathetic, ageing virgin who fantasised about having sex with Amanda Knox, it turned out that prominent guilter Peter Quennell who runs the somewhat creepy "True Justice For Meredith Kercher" site also had at least one equally creepy shrine to another teenage girl with identical layout. Bruce Fisher also documented a case of Peter Quennell harassing another young woman, and although it may not be strictly relevant Quennell fit the physical description of the pro-innocence stereotype he helped promote to a remarkable degree.

So it might be that the core of the movement is more about the psychological oddities of a handful of people who took up the case, than it is about anything intrinsic to the case. If it wasn't Knox, it would be some other attractive young woman that there is a socially-validated excuse to whip themselves into a frenzy of hate about.

Another is that millions of dollars may hang on the outcome of the case, since the Kercher family and their lawyer, Maresca, will be in a position to make a move on Raffaele Sollecito's seven-figure fortune if his conviction is upheld. While I'm not accusing anyone of being a paid astroturfer or hiring astroturfers, it is certainly true that people have done far worse for far less.

Or a final one might just be that while it hasn't been formally identified as a scientifically identified psychological bias, it might just be the case that some humans have an extremely strong aversion to revising guilt-judgements. I could vaguely see how this might be adaptive in our evolutionary environment - once you've beaten a tribe member up or killed them for doing something wrong, revising the decision might not be be adaptive from a group survival point of view regardless of whether it turned out you had the wrong target. This might account for some of the Lockerbie diehards too.

As always when skeptics get to the question of why people believe weird things in the face of the evidence, there are lots of good hypotheses and relatively little evidence as to whether or how much any one factor is responsible.
 
Might I ask what happened after you reported this to your local police department and the FBI? These are very serious crimes (federal and state...depending on where you are) and I'm certain that after you filed charges these persons are now facing prison time if convicted. I hope you saved all the evidence to turn over to the prosecuting attorney.

Folks, no matter what side we are on this case, death threats and false accusations of crimes is wrong! Even if spartacus decides to remain anonymous during his/her upcoming long legal battle (understandable) let's support his/her struggle against these criminals.

Spartacus, considering the seriousness of the charges you make (threatening murder) I don't think it will be hard for your lawyer to convince a judge to get a warrent for the IP addresses of those who threatend to kill you.

I agree. I will follow Spartacus' legal case with great interest.
 
It appears that just which questions will be asked of Rudy on June 27th, and which questions---if any--- he will be free to ignore is left to the discretion of the court. This, according to Rudy's own attorneys. HERE.

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It appears that just which questions will be asked of Rudy on June 27th, and which questions---if any--- he will be free to ignore is left to the discretion of the court. This, according to Rudy's own attorneys. HERE.

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Thank you for finding that, Fine!

That is indeed interesting information, as is the reference to the denial already made, which suggests to he'll say Alessi and the two other lied.

This is the wild card of the appeal I think, I dunno just how much stock anyone would put in his testimony, but it's something that could go either way. I do suspect that the best argument for Raffaele and Amanda's involvement may rest on the shoulders of Rudy Guede, and we all know what he did...



(Adnkronos) - Lawyers for Rudy, lawyers Walter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile said Rudy '"confident about the appointment on Monday' next to Perugia" when will sit 'back in front of Amanda and Raffaele.

"We expect that the judges tell us in what capacity should testify if Rudy (ie if 'will be able' to use the right 'not to respond as ordered in a related trial or whether we should' answer as a simple witness, ed), then we will see, but he has already 'spoken to the issue of alleged am familiar with Mario Alessi, and had denied all in good time. "
 
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It appears that just which questions will be asked of Rudy on June 27th, and which questions---if any--- he will be free to ignore is left to the discretion of the court. This, according to Rudy's own attorneys. HERE.

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Thanks, ///, for that info.

Didn't Hellmann's court get Curatolo to admit that he was high on heroin the night Miss Kercher was brutally stabbed to her death? Wasn't this something the other court did not coax outta him?

I wonder what Hellmann's court can get Guede to admit to?

I also wonder if Meredith's Father will be in court to witness this. Won't this be the 1st time that all 3 of the people convicted of murdering his daughter are together in court? I know that I would have to be there, as hard as that may be. Sympathies to the Kercher family...

R.I.P. Meredith Kercher
 
Katody Matrass:
"Basing, I presume, on the clear CCTV still showing her."

Based on their partially false claims about how they spent the night of the murder.

'"Did she take the kitchen knife with her?"

I don't think so. But the knife is not that important point for me.
I don't see it proven that it was the murder weapon.
Raffaele's "pricking" explanation, however, does suggest that it might have some connection with the cottage.
 
"... except he's using the ten minute time differential.

Is that right everyone, dismissing the two minutes from the 8:41-8:43 thing and making the 10 minutes 12 just for the ease of comprehension?

Partly because the exact difference is not known.
For example:
The carabinieri car enters the driveway to the gate at 13:22:50 timestamp.
The corresponding phone conversation ends at 12:33:58 (it began at 12:29:00 and it was 298 sec long).
Identifying these two events yields a 11 minute difference.
But these two events are not necessarily simultaneous. The call may have finished before the car entered the gate or may have continued after that (of course not with those in the car but with the carabiniere center).

Also, the 20:41-20:43 discrepancy may come from the reports mixing it with the similar time of the supposed Rudy recording at 19:41.
 
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Katody Matrass:
"Basing, I presume, on the clear CCTV still showing her."

Based on their partially false claims about how they spent the night of the murder.
Which claims indicate that Amanda was not with Raffaele when he was starting a movie at 21:26? Do those claims tell what time did she leave his place?

'"Did she take the kitchen knife with her?"

I don't think so. But the knife is not that important point for me.
I don't see it proven that it was the murder weapon.
Raffaele's "pricking" explanation, however, does suggest that it might have some connection with the cottage.
Hmmm. Amanda didn't bring the knife to the cottage yet it still have some connection. What kind of connection do you have on mind?


Those are just side questions, don't feel discouraged - I'd love to see the rest of the reconstruction. What we have so far: it is about 21:30, RS is at his place watching a cartoon, AK at the cottage with Meredith, but without the kitchen knife. Meredith has at most 30 minutes to live left. What's happening there?
 
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