Materialism (championed by Darwinists) makes reason Impossible.

Joobz: Which parts of the dog/fish/spider... can you remove and still have a dog/fish/spider that sees itself as a dog/fish/spider?


Exactly.
That was my question. At what level do you think that there would be a 'self' that is conscious, like, "I am a spider". I wanted to hear your personal view, believe or not.

It is remarkable that when you are trying kill a fly, it knows exactly that you are aiming at him, nobody else. It evades your effort very skillfully. Does it know it is doing it or is it just an automaton?

A gold fish hides behind the sea plants if you stare at him. As if he knew that you were staring at him. Does he know he is a fish? Or is it just an automatism triggered by a symmetrical face which means 'looking directly at me'. In the animal kingdom this signal has the universal meaning that somebody is trying to eat me or copulate with me.
In the fish's case, somebody that size, probably eat.

Then the dog.
A dog grown with dogs probably doesn't much care. His natural tendencies serve him very well and Mom and life in the pack teach the rest there is to be known.
A dog grown with people is another thing. His natural tendencies can be a source of rejection and punishment. He probably realizes that I am not like those two-legged dogs.
He probably has a well developed self function.

Next logical thing would be to look for a structure and a function that would differentiate those with a 'Me-self' from those who just react.

What would be your educated guess what might be the area to look at.
Dogs, cats, moles, fish, all have brain, so 'brain' would not be a good answer.

Worse than the 'box' in fact.

The head chopping experiment you can run yourself if you like.
I'll Tarot you when I get back from the holidays.

(In one of America's allies people are forced to watch beheadings. The blood is squirting some twenty feet from the cut arteries. The eyes on the severed heads blink. But these allies, they have oil. They also control about 28% of the American economy. Hush-hush!)
 
Last edited:
lemurien said:
Joobz: Which parts of the dog/fish/spider... can you remove and still have a dog/fish/spider that sees itself as a dog/fish/spider?


Exactly.
That was my question. At what level do you think that there would be a 'self' that is conscious, like, "I am a spider". I wanted to hear your personal view, believe or not.
Click to expand...
I do not know if spiders are self-aware. So your point is difficult to answer.

lemurien said:
The head chopping experiment you can run yourself if you like.
I'll Tarot you when I get back from the holidays.
Click to expand...
I've answered many hypotheticals. I wonder why you are evading mine.

Where do you believe your dying consciousness would reside in my hypothetical? In the head or the body?

lemurien said:
(In one of America's allies people are forced to watch beheadings. The blood is squirting some twenty feet from the cut arteries. The eyes on the severed heads blink. But these allies, they have oil. They also control about 28% of the American economy. Hush-hush!)
Click to expand...
This is an odd, inflammatory aside.
 
lemurien said:
We look at things a bit differently.

My way of thinking...well...let's look at a computer.
You are saying that a computer is its processor running an operating system and you cannot really differentiate between the two. (this was a question)

Whereas I see that there is a processor that can run this or that operating system (Christian, Muslim, Atheist) which is one thing and that the processor actually running an operating system is another thing.

And still, you do not have a computer yet.
You have to have ports and energy sources and an interface.

In my mind, the things have a similar kind of logic.
You have a structure, in the case of the brain it is very intimately knitted together with the human flesh.

Then you have the different level processes (as you undoubtedly know) from the basic life homeostasis functions and the animal reactions we share with other primates all the way up to mathematics and philosophy and the power of introspection.

Now, then.
You have a bigger entity that is you. It consists of flesh and signaling neurons.
The signaling neurons is all you have access to subjectively but it does not change the fact that you are a mammal. An animal.

Your identity is created in your brain, OK.
What you know of yourself is in your brain, OK.
But you weigh some 80 kilos and your brain only 1.6kg.

And there is more than that.
You cannot be the real you as a numeric representation of your brain processes.
Your representations of the outside world and you yourself are created by the flesh interface.
You are in the world in a certain way because you are the biped mammal you are. A lot of wetware working there at different levels.

No computer will ever use human flesh as the interface with the external world.
There will be attempts, certainly. But just think of what kinds of physical dimensions a metallic port would need and how you could plant the electrodes to the right neurons..they are very small and they keep changing their functions.

The perfect copy of yourself would be processing differently from the original the moment it is turned on, because of the number of the degrees of freedom an infinitely complicated entity like the human consciousness has.

Every new observation, every novel connection there is leaves a mark on the construction.
Yes, the software does rewrite the hardware all the time.

The most stable thing in the process is the body maps.
All the rest is aleatory and take whatever whimsy it might come up with.
But the body maps (let's not talk about hallucinations and amputations here) remain stable.
They are the backbone against which the changes in the neural patterns are measured.

Of course, the body maps are in the brain. But hey could not be adequately created with the body.

So I say that what you know about yourself is in the brain.
But there is more.
Click to expand...

I say you boring,
 
lemurien said:
It is remarkable that when you are trying kill a fly, it knows exactly that you are aiming at him, nobody else. It evades your effort very skillfully. Does it know it is doing it or is it just an automaton?
Click to expand...

I catch flies all the time. It is easy once you understand that when there is no movement for some time, they forget the movement they saw and go about their business, cleaning legs, head etc.

So, one lands on the table, if you are sitting there move your hand slowly to within a foot are so. You will see them not doing anything, they are still and all ready to fly off. Don't move, after a little time goes by they start their cleaning routine, their memory sucks. That is when you catch them by siding your open hand across the table as fast as you can.

They don't know squat, they only see movement.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Ever hear of Django Renihardt?

lemurien said:
If a violinist loses a hand, he ceases to be a violinist.
Becoming a violinist takes thousand of hours of practice from an early age.
His brain is mapped differently, the hand getting a lot more motor cortical mass than in the rest of us. Their brains are different on MRI scans.

Somebody who has dedicated at least four hours a day to practice all his life to become a violinist probably sees himself as a violinist. His audience would be coming to listen to his play for they consider him as one, also.

After losing his hand his name or his personal history would not change.
His personality would.
He would not be Mr. So-And-So, the Violinist.
Just Mr. So-And-So.
He could become a teacher or a critic. He also might commit suicide.

A crack addict with crack is cool and without crack it he is in agony.
After detox he still is a crack addict who'd have to watch it all his life with pain killers, sedatives and anti-allergic medications.

One question: Is a dog also his brain? A fish? A spider? A mollusc?
Where in the Animal Kingdom would you draw the line?
Click to expand...
 
Paulhoff said:
I catch flies all the time. It is easy once you understand that when there is no movement for some time, they forget the movement they saw and go about their business, cleaning legs, head etc.

So, one lands on the table, if you are sitting there move your hand slowly to within a foot are so. You will see them not doing anything, they are still and all ready to fly off. Don't move, after a little time goes by they start their cleaning routine, their memory sucks. That is when you catch them by siding your open hand across the table as fast as you can.

They don't know squat, they only see movement.

Paul

:) :) :)
Click to expand...


There's nothing even remotely skillful about their evasion either. They always take off in exactly the same way by first jumping backwards and only starting the flying business when they're clear of the surface.
 
Last edited:
lemurien said:
A gold fish hides behind the sea plants if you stare at him. As if he knew that you were staring at him. Does he know he is a fish? Or is it just an automatism triggered by a symmetrical face which means 'looking directly at me'. In the animal kingdom this signal has the universal meaning that somebody is trying to eat me or copulate with me.
In the fish's case, somebody that size, probably eat.
Click to expand...


This is quite simply not true.
 
joobz said:
I do not know if spiders are self-aware. So your point is difficult to answer.
Click to expand...


I'd say it's even more difficult in the particular case of a spider which, if you chop off a leg or three simply grows new ones.

Does Incy-Wincy recognise the old legs or the new legs as part of himself?
 
lemurien said:
You cannot run an OS just with the box.
Get coherent, will you.
Click to expand...
Yes you can. You apparently know as much about computing as you do about biochemistry, neurobiology, pharmacology, physiology or any of the other subjects you pontificate about so freely.
:rolleyes:
 
The insect kingdom is actually a magnificent example of the "bootstrapping" of evolution, towards our current level of neural sophistication.

Current DARPA research is almost ready to deploy insect-level intelligence automotons onto the battlefield. They are comparable to computer programming in their, mostly instinctual, cognitive capabilities.

Yet, we are able to concieve how, as brain complexity has slowly increased, the incremental progress will & did eventually allow for our self-awareness. Why would there be a threshold along the way where "something else" is necessary?
 
jond said:
Ever hear of Django Renihardt?
Click to expand...

He didn't lose a hand. The index and middle fingers of his left hand were burned and damaged but he could use them for partial barre chords. The melody was played with the other two fingers.
 
Akhenaten said:
I'd say it's even more difficult in the particular case of a spider which, if you chop off a leg or three simply grows new ones.

Does Incy-Wincy recognise the old legs or the new legs as part of himself?
Click to expand...

What do you call a dog with no legs?
Anything you like,it still won't come to you.
 
Akhenaten said:
I'd say it's even more difficult in the particular case of a spider which, if you chop off a leg or three simply grows new ones.

Does Incy-Wincy recognise the old legs or the new legs as part of himself?
Click to expand...

Not many people know that spiders' ears are on their legs. You can prove this; normally if you make a noise, the spider will run away. If you remove their legs, they can't hear anymore and so don't move when you make a sound...
 
zooterkin said:
Not many people know that spiders' ears are on their legs. You can prove this; normally if you make a noise, the spider will run away. If you remove their legs, they can't hear anymore and so don't move when you make a sound...
Click to expand...


Now that's putting the 'E' in JREF.


dafydd said:
What do you call a dog with no legs?
Anything you like,it still won't come to you.
Click to expand...


My dog's got no nose.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom