Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[King of the Americas]

...

Still, it's a good thing you weren't on your throne on 9/11, issuing orders to shoot down any airliner that wasn't responding to radio messages. Who knows how many more victims you would have gifted to al-Qaeda? What is required of a leader in these circumstances is not knee-jerk, knob-waving shootdown orders; ...

Dave

Right...the BEST thing to do when your country is under attack, a the sitting President, is to be with a bunch of children, while reading a book about a goat.

I came here to get answers to some questions I was recently posed, and I've ignored nothing. I just choose not to dig into this matter.

The government failed its citizens, and we'll never know everything about how and why.

End of story, for me.

 

[dafydd]

Right...the BEST thing to do when your country is under attack, a the sitting President, is to be with a bunch of children, while reading a book about a goat.

I came here to get answers to some questions I was recently posed, and I've ignored nothing. I just choose not to dig into this matter.

The government failed its citizens, and we'll never know everything about how and why.

End of story, for me.

Story being the operative word.

 

[dafydd]

Then what the hell does Bush' reaction (or lack thereof) has to do with an inside job?

When will the truthers start giving us details of this 'inside job'?

 

[DGM]

Right...the BEST thing to do when your country is under attack, a the sitting President, is to be with a bunch of children, while reading a book about a goat.

I came here to get answers to some questions I was recently posed, and I've ignored nothing. I just choose not to dig into this matter.

The government failed its citizens, and we'll never know everything about how and why.

End of story, for me.

What should he have done? So far your answers to this question do not reflect any of his possible choices. Remaining calm and waiting for security to clear his departure.

 

[RedIbis]

Bush’s Booker Reaction on 9/11, a mea culpa

You know what guys, I’m going to concede defeat on this one. I realize I was wrong to think that upon hearing confirmation that the nation is now under attack, the best course of action was not to sit dumbstruck and blindly gaze into a schoolroom of children and other citizens. After all, what could he do for the 8 minutes he sat there? He’s only the Commander-in- Chief, sworn to make decisions based on the advice of his principal officers, in defense of the US and decisions of war. And I should certainly forgive the president for doing absolutely nothing. Maybe he just wanted to find out if the little girl was going to keep her pet goat. It’s not like he could have immediately been in touch with the acting Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, who unfortunately, was unavailable in a closed door tea party. It’s not like he could have calmly and politely excused himself, while the area was secured, so that the school would not become a target. (Granted, the school was probably fine, even if the Pentagon had not gotten hit yet). It's not like he could have been mobilized, or any number of possible options, all within 8 minutes. Which is after all, a very short amount of time. It’s not as if the difference between success and failure on 9/11 was based on seconds, and not minutes.

I don’t know what I was thinking. You guys got me on this one, time to break out the debunker party punch.

 

[NoahFence]

Right...the BEST thing to do when your country is under attack, a the sitting President, is to be with a bunch of children, while reading a book about a goat.

I came here to get answers to some questions I was recently posed, and I've ignored nothing. I just choose not to dig into this matter.

The government failed its citizens, and we'll never know everything about how and why.

End of story, for me.

It's very possible to not know how something happened, and at the same time being 100% sure how something didn't happen.

I have no idea how the universe was made. I am, however, 100% certain it wasn't a pack of matches.

 

[000063]

Right...the BEST thing to do when your country is under attack, a the sitting President, is to be with a bunch of children, while reading a book about a goat.

You know what guys, I’m going to concede defeat on this one. I realize I was wrong to think that upon hearing confirmation that the nation is now under attack, the best course of action was not to sit dumbstruck and blindly gaze into a schoolroom of children and other citizens.
[words, words, words]

Are any debunkers here claiming that what Bush did was the "best course of action"? I don't think so. In fact, several have actually criticized said reaction and Bush himself. Was it the "best thing to do"? No. Is it an entirely reasonable reaction, to be shocked by shocking news? Yes!

Stop arguing with straw men. In LIHOP or MIHOP, Bush's reaction indicates a lack of foreknowledge, which means it's not evidence of a CT. All this MMQBing about what he should or shouldn't have done in an ideal situation is a red herring.

 

[DGM]

It’s not as if the difference between success and failure on 9/11 was based on seconds, and not minutes.

You're finally catching on. The attack was over by the time he found out.

 

[Reheat]

I don’t know what I was thinking. You guys got me on this one, time to break out the debunker party punch.

I understand that you think this tirade is cute, but it summarizes that fact that you have NO CLUE regarding what should or what should not have been done during the attacks. Just like your previous unjustified criticism of Gen Myers you don't have a clue what can or should be have been done and by whom.

It is no longer the Civil War Era with Generals or the CIC calling shots on positioning of forces or who to attack or not when. The action is carried out by the tip of the spear, i.e. the operational folks actually doing the fighting and flying (in the case of 9/11). When Myers became aware of the attacks he did what Generals should and usually do, he talked to another General.

Bush was obviously shocked and looked like a complete moron as he sat in that classroom, however, that had absolutely no bearing on events of the day. There was absolutely nothing Bush did or did not do that influenced the outcome of the day.

Once you or truthers get that FACT through your silly head the sooner you and they might begin to understand the events of the day and stop the silly nonsense.

 

[Bell]

You know what guys, I’m going to concede defeat on this one. I realize I was wrong to think that upon hearing confirmation that the nation is now under attack, the best course of action was not to sit dumbstruck and blindly gaze into a schoolroom of children and other citizens. After all, what could he do for the 8 minutes he sat there? He’s only the Commander-in- Chief, sworn to make decisions based on the advice of his principal officers, in defense of the US and decisions of war. And I should certainly forgive the president for doing absolutely nothing. Maybe he just wanted to find out if the little girl was going to keep her pet goat. It’s not like he could have immediately been in touch with the acting Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, who unfortunately, was unavailable in a closed door tea party. It’s not like he could have calmly and politely excused himself, while the area was secured, so that the school would not become a target. (Granted, the school was probably fine, even if the Pentagon had not gotten hit yet). It's not like he could have been mobilized, or any number of possible options, all within 8 minutes. Which is after all, a very short amount of time. It’s not as if the difference between success and failure on 9/11 was based on seconds, and not minutes.

I don’t know what I was thinking. You guys got me on this one, time to break out the debunker party punch.

And this had to do with an inside job, how exactly?

 

[Mr. Skinny]

(snip)
* * * * *
I will get to the sprinklers and standpipes tomorrow.

I will anxiously await this discussion. I'm curious to see if your knowledge of sprinkler systems and standpipes is as deep as your knowledge of fire protection water supplies.

 

[Sabretooth]

Supposedly, in this forum, you're supposed to attack the argument not the arguer. Your comments tend toward a personal nature, which is not only against the rules but belies a kind of desperation.

You really need to stop crying wolf. It's gotten rather childish.

What GWB should/could of done is of little consequence. No matter what he did or didn't do at that immediate point in time would have done nothing to prepare and/or prevent the days events.

Let's not forget...when the AA11 hit WTC1, nobody...and I mean nobody...thought it was terrorism. I don't find it the least bit improper that GWB decided to finish his reading to the kids instead of blasting out of there.

The whole "GWB shoulda done somethin'" debate is stupid, IMO. Even if he knew at 08:46 that it was a terrorist attack, it wouldn't have changed the events. There was too little time to identify the scope of the problem and implement a strategy to deal with it.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Right...the BEST thing to do when your country is under attack, a the sitting President, is to be with a bunch of children, while reading a book about a goat.

Yes, I'm sure the part of my post you snipped in your reply didn't even attempt to suggest that there were other options than either looking like a moron or issuing Rambo-style shootdown orders, and I'm sure I didn't suggest anything better than sitting reading a book and looking stupid.

A quick tip for any future pieces of dishonesty: don't be quite so blatant.

Dave

 

[Dave Rogers]

You know what guys, I’m going to concede defeat on this one. I realize I was wrong to think that upon hearing confirmation that the nation is now under attack, the best course of action was not to sit dumbstruck and blindly gaze into a schoolroom of children and other citizens.

No, no, I'm sure the truthers are right on this one. Any president who wasn't part of a conspiracy would immediately have ordered every airliner in the country shot down without a second's delay, because life really is like the movies and it's a small price to lose tens of thousands of lives if it saves a few hundred other lives.

Any other pieces of blatant quote mining and strawman arguments need parodying?

Dave

 

[twinstead]

I'm confused about what GWB's reaction while at the school that morning actually has to to with whether 9-11 was an inside job.

Red can you clear this up for me?

 

[Travis]

That's as bare of a bare assertion fallacy as I've ever seen.

So what could Bush have done? He could have immediately gotten in touch with the DOD to ask what they knew........except they were as much in the dark right then too. He could have been patched in directly to NEADS....only to hear they have no idea what planes might be hijacked and which ones aren't. He could have called up the head of the FAA......and been told they were still unsure what flight had even struck WTC1 and had no idea where American Airlines 11 was. He could have then screamed into his conference phone and demanded that everyone suddenly know more....except that would have accomplished nothing but add stress to already stressed people.

Or, you know, he could have just demanded the nuclear football, said "well **** it we got to look like we're doing something" and then launches ICBM's at Russia.

So maybe I was wrong. There were things he could have done. It's just none of them were useful or appropriate.

Right...the BEST thing to do when your country is under attack, a the sitting President, is to be with a bunch of children, while reading a book about a goat.

I came here to get answers to some questions I was recently posed, and I've ignored nothing. I just choose not to dig into this matter.

The government failed its citizens, and we'll never know everything about how and why.

End of story, for me.

We'll never know everything about Al Capone either. Does that mean he was really a robot from the future?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Are any debunkers here claiming that what Bush did was the "best course of action"? I don't think so. In fact, several have actually criticized said reaction and Bush himself. Was it the "best thing to do"? No. Is it an entirely reasonable reaction, to be shocked by shocking news? Yes!

Stop arguing with straw men. In LIHOP or MIHOP, Bush's reaction indicates a lack of foreknowledge, which means it's not evidence of a CT. All this MMQBing about what he should or shouldn't have done in an ideal situation is a red herring.

That's rich.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/schoolvideo.html

But far more telling than Bush's reaction is that of Card himself who, as can be seen in the above clip, steps in to inform Bush of the second impact (without mentioning the fact that more hijacked planes were in the air), then immediately steps back without waiting for a reply. Bush's job is to make decisions. How does Card know that Bush will not make one then and there?

What damns the Bush administration is not what is in this video, but what SHOULD be in the video and is not. Ostensibly, Bush and Card are reacting to a surprise attack, but Card acts like he is delivering a progress report to which he knows there will be no immediate response rather than unexpected news, and Bush does not act surprised.

That's really rich.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911short.htm

 

[NoahFence]

No, no, I'm sure the truthers are right on this one. Any president who wasn't part of a conspiracy would immediately have ordered every airliner in the country shot down without a second's delay, because life really is like the movies and it's a small price to lose tens of thousands of lives if it saves a few hundred other lives.

Any other pieces of blatant quote mining and strawman arguments need parodying?

Dave

Respectfully, wouldn't the President be shuttled to Air Force One, use it to catch up to a hijacked plane, attach to it with a zipline, forcibly enter the plane then cockpit and choke the terrorist to death, landing the plane harmlessly in a municipal airport somewhere?

 

[000063]

That's rich.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/schoolvideo.html

That's really rich.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911short.htm

There seems to be dissention in the ranks. Clay is arguing that Bush's reaction was not surprise (indicating foreknowledge), and both Red and Chris7 are arguing that it was surprise (indicating ignorance/incompetence). I'd really appreciate it if you worked out what your side's actual position on the matter is, or if you agree to disagree with each other.

As for WRH;

You may have heard the strange story of how George Bush claimed to have seen the first plane hit the World Trade Tower on a television in Booker Elementary School before going into a classroom to hear some children read. This is a strange story because there were no live broadcasts of this impact.

The reader may have heard from who? An official news source, or one of the many, many rumors that were swirling around?

Bush simply went on with the school visit and listened to children reading about a pet goat. For twenty minutes.

We've already established that it was more like 10.

(without mentioning the fact that more hijacked planes were in the air)

I've noticed that WRH assumes that Card actually knew other hijacked planes were in the air, without providing any evidence to support the assertion, other than the fact that there are airports nearby. (I'd like to point out that none of the 3 planes that hit actually flew out of the nearest airfield to their targets.) Who knew about the other hijacked planes at that point? What would telling Bush about the extra planes prove?

Bush's job is to make decisions. How does Card know that Bush will not make one then and there?

Ah, yes, the classic Truther rhetoical trick of implying things without actually stating them. If Bush needs to make a decision, he'll make his excuses and leave. Making a critical decision without being able to talk to his advisors would be extremely stupid. If he were to make an on-the-spot decision, he can just beckon Card over and talk to him.

Bush does not act surprised.

Subjective. I note that WRH gives no description of what "acting surprised" would actually entail, just that Bush isn't doing it. Standard Truther non-falsifiability.

 

[Sunstealer]

Is all that Bush did. Absolutely no point in doing anything else. Funny how truthers criticize, but don't actually say exactly what he should have been doing. Far better to finish up with the children and then move on.

I suspect truthers expected him to stand up, remove his suit to reveal a super-hero costume with under-pants on the outside and fly out the window to the rescue of everyone.