Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[NoahFence]

I have stated many times that the data is mostly correct,

...specifically the parts you choose to quote-mine.

Hayden did NOT say the building was leaning.
No one at the scene said the building was leaning.
NIST did not say the building was leaning.

Yet you believe it was, based on what a firefighter 5 blocks away said.

And yet when it collapsed, it fell to the south, not straight down. Funny that.

 

[TruthersLie]

You forgot pilot lights in gas ranges. They make about as much sense regarding the 99 day 9/11 fires as wildfires and underground coal fires.

You asked for a fire that has burned for 99 days... I (and others) gave you several.

It isn't my fault that you are imprecise in what you ask for. As for what was burning at ground zero for 99 days or how and why... it is the same idea as the underground coal fire.

there was a fire, with air to burn and water wasn't getting to it. Very simple concept. Sorry you can't possibly understand it.

 

[NoahFence]

Accounts of WTC 7 Damage

1. The major concern at that time was number Seven, building number Seven, which had taken a big hit from the north tower. When it fell, it ripped steel out from between the third and sixth floors across the facade on Vesey Street. We were concerned that the fires on several floors and the missing steel would result in the building collapsing. –FDNY Chief Frank Fellini

2. At that time, other firefighters started showing up, Deputy Battalion Chief Paul Ferran of the 41 Battalion, and James Savastano of the First Division assigned to the Second Battalion showed up and we attempted to search and extinguish, at the time which was small pockets of fire in 7 World Trade Center. We were unaware of the damage in the front of 7, because we were entering from the northeast entrance. We weren't aware of the magnitude of the damage in the front of the building. – FDNY Captain Anthony Varriale http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110313.PDF

3. [Shortly after the tower collapses] I don’t know how long this was going on, but I remember standing there looking over at building 7 and realizing that a big chunk of the lower floors had been taken out on the Vesey Street side. I looked up at the building and I saw smoke in it, but I really didn't see any fire at that time. Deputy ––Chief Nick Visconti http://tinyurl.com/paqux

4. A few minutes after that a police officer came up to me and told me that the façade in front of Seven World Trade Center was gone and they thought there was an imminent collapse of Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Lieutenant William Melarango http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110045.PDF

5. I think they said they had seven to ten floors that were freestanding and they weren't going to send anyone in. –FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110055.PDF

6. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. But they had a hose line operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too.

Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandeis came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.
Firehouse Magazine: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?
Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.
Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?
Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered through there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. – Capt. Chris Boyle http://tinyurl.com/e7bzp

7. After the initial blast, Housing Authority worker Barry Jennings, 46, reported to a command center on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center. He was with Michael Hess, the city's corporation counsel, when they felt and heard another explosion [the collapse of the north tower]. First calling for help, they scrambled downstairs to the lobby, or what was left of it. "I looked around, the lobby was gone. It looked like hell," Jennings said. http://www.record-eagle.com/2001/sep/11scene.htm

8. Anyway, I was looking at WTC7 and I noticed that it wasn’t looking like it was straight. It was really weird. The closest corner to me (the SE corner) was kind of out of whack with the SW corner. It was impossible to tell whether that corner (the SW) was leaning over more or even if it was leaning the other way. With all of the smoke and the debris pile, I couldn’t exactly tell what was going on, but I sure could see the building was leaning over in a way it certainly should not be. I asked another guy looking with me and he said “That building is going to come down, we better get out of here.” So we did. –M.J., Employed at 45 Broadway, in a letter to me.

9. So we left 7 World Trade Center, back down to the street, where I ran into Chief Coloe from the 1st Division, Captain Varriale, Engine 24, and Captain Varriale told Chief Coloe and myself that 7 World Trade Center was badly damaged on the south side and definitely in danger of collapse. Chief Coloe said we were going to evacuate the collapse zone around 7 World Trade Center, which we did. – FDNY Lieutenant Rudolph Weindler http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110462.PDF

10. Just moments before the south tower collapsed and, you know, when it happened we didn't know it was the south tower. We thought it was the north tower. There was a reporter of some sort, female with blond hair and her cameraman, an oriental fellow. They were setting up outside 7 World Trade Center, just east of the pedestrian bridge. I told them it would probably be better off to be set up under the bridge. At least it was protected. I was just about to enter a dialogue with her when I heard a sound I never heard before. I looked up and saw this huge cloud. I told him run. I grabbed the female, I threw her through the revolving doors of number 7.

We were proceeding inside. She fell to the ground. I helped her out, I pushed her towards the direction of where we were all in the south corner and there was a little doorway behind that desk which led into the loading bays. Everybody started to run through that. Never made it to that door. The next thing that I remember was that I was covered in some glass and some debris. Everything came crashing through the front of number 7. It was totally pitch black.

Q. Were you injured?

A. Yes, I saw some stuff had fallen on me. I didn't believe that I was injured at that time. I discovered later on I was injured. I had some shards of glass impaled in my head, but once I was able to get all this debris and rubble off of me and cover my face with my jacket so that I could breathe, it was very thick dust, you couldn't see. We heard some sounds. We reached out and felt our way around. I managed to find some other people in this lower lobby. We crawled over towards the direction where we thought the door was and as we approached it the door cracked open a little, so we had the lights from the loading bay. We made our way over there. The loading bay doors were 3-fourths of the way shut when this happened, so they took a lot of dust in there, but everyone in those bays was safe and secure. We had face to face contact with Chief Maggio and Captain Nahmod. They told me – I said do whatever you need to do, get these people out of here. Go, go towards the water. –EMS Division Chief Jon Peruggia
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110160.PDF

11. You could see the damage at 7 World Trade Center, the damage into the AT&T building.
–FDNY Firefighter Vincent Palmieri http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110258.PDF

12. At this point, 7, which is right there on Vesey, the whole corner of the building was missing. I was thinking to myself we are in a bad place, because it was the corner facing us. –Fred Marsilla, FDNY
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110399.PDF

13. The way we got into the loading dock [of WTC 7] was not the way we were getting out. It was obstructed.

Q. The door was blocked?

A. Yeah, and we found our way -- we walked across the loading dock area, and we found there was another door. We went in that door, and from there we were directed to -- I really guess it was like a basement area of the building, but we were directed to an opposite door. –Dr. Michael Guttenberg , NYC Office of Medical Affairs http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110005.PDF

14. We eventually ended up meeting after the second explosion, three of us met up here, but I didn't see a lot of the people that were with me until two, three days later. I got word that they were okay. For instance, Dr. Guttenberg and Dr. Asaeda, who were at 7 World Trade Center, they got trapped in there and had to like climb in and out and get out because that building also became very damaged supposedly and they were there. We thought they were dead. I guess he was in an area where Commissioner Tierney might have been, I believe. I think she was in 7 also. –Paramedic Manuel Delgado http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110004.PDF

(After collapse of south tower)
15. The decision was either to go left or right and we ended up going right, between the two buildings, in the alleyway on the north, which turned out to be the right direction because apparently there was a lot of debris and part of 7 down already. Also, I did notice as I was making my exit the sound of the firefighters' alarms indicating that they were down. I did remember that as well but just could not see anything. –Dr. Glenn Asaeda http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/sept11_fdny_transcripts/9110062.PDF

16. I saw the firefighter. There were people screaming out of one of these two buildings over here saying they couldn't get out, and my partner took one straggler fireman, the one that we had with us, and was trying to break the door because the door obviously had shifted or something. They couldn't get the door open.

Q: That was 7 World Trade Center?

A: I believe it was 7. Maybe it was 5. It was at the back end of it because I do remember the telephone company [which is next to building 7]. So I think it was the back end of 7, I think right over here at that point, and they couldn't get out. Then I had ran down the block and I flagged a ladder company and they brought the ladder, which they had like a vestibule that you couldn't like really reach the people because the ladder wouldn't reach. So they went and got other resources, they went inside the building, and I told my partner that it wasn't safe and that we need to go because everything around us was like falling apart. –EMT Nicole Ferrell http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110304.PDF

17. The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower. – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)

18. At that point, they said that Seven World Trade had no face and it was ready to collapse. – EMT Mercedes Rivera: (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 29)

19. You see the white smoke, you see the thing leaning like this? It's definitely going. There's no way to stop it. 'Cause you have to go up in there to put it out, and it's already, the structural integrity is not there. –Unidentified firefighter in this video.

20. As far as I was concerned, we were still trapped. I was hopeful. things were looking a whole lot better now than they were just a few minutes earlier, but we were a long way from safe and sound. Five World Trade Center was fully involved, Six World Trade Center was roaring pretty good, and behind them Seven World Trade Center was teetering on collapse.
The buildings just behind him and to his left were looking like they too might collapse at any time, and there were whole chunks of concrete falling to both sides. Flames dancing everywhere. The small-arms detonations were kicking up a notch or two, and it sounded like this poor guy was being fired at, by snipers or unseen terrorists, at close range. (Last Man Down by Richard Picciotto, FDNY Battalion Commander Penguin Books, 2002. page 191)

Next: Eyewitness accounts of pull back from WTC 7 due to danger​

​

They were all schills and in on it.

 

[Travis]

You're off on the timeline. When Card tells Bush about the attack, it's the second tower he's telling him about. He heard about the first one on the way to the school. Everyone and their mother knew we were under attack at the second hit.

Ah yes. But, nonetheless, there was not much Bush could do right there. There was not much he could do later either.

You forgot pilot lights in gas ranges. They make about as much sense regarding the 99 day 9/11 fires as wildfires and underground coal fires.

An apt comparison since there were natural gas lines in the vicinity that would have contributed to the underground fires.

So, considering the enormous amount of stuff to burn, the intense heat and low oxygen environment how long do you think the fires should have burned for?

The building did NOT collapse due to any condition existing at 1:20 p.m.
No one could have predicted the building would collapse due tho thermal expansion at the east end of the building 5 hours later.

Did anyone actually predict that?

But why should they have not thought that thermal expansion would bring the building down when, some years earlier, LA firefighters almost stopped fighting a fire in a skyscraper because they were worried about the same exact thing?

 

[000063]

Basically, I do NOT believe that a group of men armed only with box cutters could penetrate the Pentagon's air space, and indeed damage it, "as a secondary target", without anyone knowing, or being able to stop it.

Why not? There's an airport a stone's throw away from the Pentagon with a flight path directly over it. Assuming there were any missile batteries, then they wouldn't be programmed to shoot down commercial airliners.

Also, 77 was tailed by another plane, a transport, IIRC. You should really stop Just Asking Questions and start looking for answers.

While I am no expert on the timeline, when last I looked at it, the time it took between the first attack, us KNOWING there were other planes off course and unresponsive, and the time it takes to scramble intercept aircraft are "off"...

Based on what? Your expert opinion of America's air defense systems and their response time? You know the 19 turned off their transponders, meaning they were unlabelled blips in a sea of thousands of other blips, right? What was the chain of command in this situation? Who has to call who to scramble what? How long did the last plane intercept in the preceding decade take? I can think a picture looks crooked, but I'm still going to get a leveller.

That our President sat there cowering with kids, rather than become the Commander in Chief, the ONLY man who could order a civilian jet be shot down, reeked of incompetence.

IIRC, there was no real precendent for this sort of thing, no plans. It was a sucker punch, metaphorically speaking. The President stayed put until the Service could secure transport. Would you rather he ran from the room screaming?

I think it is far more likely that we, someone, or a group of people KNEW there was going to be an attack, and that the attack was not stopped, but rather allowed to continue unencumbered.

Oh, good, you're not a skeptic, you're a LIHOP truther.

Given the look of President Bush's face as he sat there knowing "we are under attack", he was likely out of the loop.

This is just as bad as the people who take the Apollo 11 astronauts' exhausted faces at the post-mission press conference as evidence of guilt from a hoax.

 

[000063]

I know it sounds monday morning quarterback-ish, but when the country is under attack, you put the children's book DOWN, and tend to your military post.

Sitting in a room surrounded by children with your tail between your legs is NOT what the Commander in Chief SHOULD do. And this isn't what 'I' would do in that situation.

You are not, and I suspect never will be, the President of the United States of America.

 

[000063]

No! This is a ridiculous claim that y'all keep making based on what a firefighter 5 blocks away said. Hayden was right there and he did NOT say the building was leaning.

Furthermore, there is no mention of the building leaning in any NIST report.

Chris, the FDNY actually put a surveyor's transit on the building, and measured its increasing lean throughout the day. This wasn't just one guy's opinion, but objective measurement.

 

[triforcharity]

The building did NOT collapse due to any condition existing at 1:20 p.m.

Incorrect. The fire was already buring.

No one could have predicted the building would collapse due tho thermal expansion at the east end of the building 5 hours later.

Nobody did. Strawman argument.

The engineer and Chief Hayden said "the building will collapse". Did they say exactly WHY it would collapse? No. Does it MATTER? No.

I will predict that the Red Sox will win another game before the end of the week.

Does it make it an incorrect prediction if I don't predict the score or the opponet? How about the number of hits?

No, of course not.

Post 7116 awaits you.

 

[triforcharity]

Chris, the FDNY actually put a surveyor's transit on the building, and measured its increasing lean throughout the day. This wasn't just one guy's opinion, but objective measurement.

[nitpick]
The lean wasn't indicated in the transit. The bulge was.[/nitpick]

 

[Bell]

Why the **** would they waste time and manpower to fight a fire in an empty building when there was wreckage of two others that weren't empty right next to it?

Are you talking about the wreckage that held more than 300 of their brothers?

 

[000063]

[nitpick]
The lean wasn't indicated in the transit. The bulge was.[/nitpick]

Thank you. I stand corrected.

 

[sylvan8798]

I'm saying that the building was not in any danger of collapsing at 1:30 p.m. and no one could predict a collapse 5 hours in advance.

Here's the thing, C7: The damage from the debris may not have contributed to the collapse which took place that afternoon, but it is highly possible that, even if there were NO fires, there would have been some sort of catastrophic failure as a result of the damage sooner or later. The building was seen to be deflecting, which means those columns were under load and deforming slowly.

No! This is a ridiculous claim that y'all keep making based on what a firefighter 5 blocks away said. Hayden was right there and he did NOT say the building was leaning.

Furthermore, there is no mention of the building leaning in any NIST report.

Yes, actually, yes. Notice that I did not say "leaning" in my post above, I said deflecting, which numerous people observed to be the case. I stand by what I wrote.

You, OTOH, have not indicated where you are going with this line of argument anyways...

 

[Christopher7]

Accounts of WTC 7 Damage

I have read those accounts and so did NIST. They determined that the debris damage did NOT lead to further collapses because of the moment frames and it did NOT start the collapse or play a significant role in the collapse.

 

[DGM]

I have read those accounts and so did NIST. They determined that the debris damage did NOT lead to further collapses because of the moment frames and it did NOT start the collapse or play a significant role in the collapse.

This is not right.

A "significant role" would be that the damage compromised the fire containment abilities of the building (allowed for it to spread easyily).

Do you disagree? I don't recall NIST arguing against this.

 

[Christopher7]

The building did NOT collapse due to any condition existing at 1:20 p.m.

Incorrect. The fire was already buring.

The fire was not a threat to the building collapsing then or at any time. It had burned out and did not cause the collapse as NIST claims.

No one could have predicted the building would collapse due tho thermal expansion at the east end of the building 5 hours later.

Nobody did. Strawman argument.

Word games. No one could predict a building collapse 5 hours in advance period.

And we had a discussion with one particular engineer there, and we asked him, if we allowed it to burn could we anticipate a collapse, and if so, how soon?” The engineer apparently predicts correctly that WTC 7 will collapse and also the time it will take before it comes down. As Hayden will continue: “And it turned out that he was pretty much right on the money, that he said, ‘In its current state, you have about five hours.’” Hayden will not reveal the name of this engineer. [BBC, 7/6/2008]

The engineer and Chief Hayden said "the building will collapse". Did they say exactly WHY it would collapse? No. Does it MATTER? No.

WRONG! They predicted the collapse based on the conditions at the time. It is idiotic to think that someone could predict that a building will collapse 5 hours before it does and your willingness to believe it just proves you will believe anything.

 

[Christopher7]

This is not right.

A "significant role" would be that the damage compromised the fire containment abilities of the building (allowed for it to spread easyily).

Do you disagree? I don't recall NIST arguing against this.

Word games. The damage itself played no role in the collapse initiation and had very little effect on the collapse.

 

[Christopher7]

Chris, the FDNY actually put a surveyor's transit on the building, and measured its increasing lean throughout the day. This wasn't just one guy's opinion, but objective measurement.

That is a bald faced lie. Hayden said there was a bulge. He did NOT say it was leaning.

 

[brazenlilraisin]

The fire was not a threat to the building collapsing then or at any time. It had burned out and did not cause the collapse as NIST claims.

There sure were a lot of smoke bombs going off in the hours leading up to the pull.

 

[Justin39640]

And what would you have done?

Fudged his undies... like most of America did that day.

 

[DGM]

Word games. The damage itself played no role in the collapse initiation and had very little effect on the collapse.

100% wrong. If it wasn't I wouldn't have to "fire-block" the buildings I build (to stop fire from spreading). Wait you're a builder like me. you should know this. Remember, I believe the fires were the cause of the collapse (like NIST)