• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Did Marsi mention when Raffaele said that they were waiting for the Carabinieri? Was it right when Marsi arrived?

Surely an important detail. It looks very possible that it was right when Marsi arrived, since Massei mention this in connection with the truthfulness of Sollecitos statement that he called 112 before the police arrived. Are there trial transcipts of Marsis testimony available to the public?

Mairanse said:
It would be interesting to know if there were any fingerprints or DNA evidence on the phone if they were tested.

I have read somewhere the tests were negative. Maybe it's in the Massei report? Should be.
 
lane99:
"To me, the case against Knox and the boyfriend seems to rely to a suspicious extent on this kind of circular logic.

The figure in the video is Knox, not because the figure is recognizable as her, but because "who else could it be?" Knox is the murderer, after all."


I, for one, don't use circular logic.
But i do think that there must be an explanation who that figure is.

There is an explanation. It's Meredith.
 
Thanks for the detailed response John. I agree it seems more likely someone was fumbling around with a phone they hadn't used before considering the number dialed happened to be the first number in the address book.

It would be interesting to know if there were any fingerprints or DNA evidence on the phone if they were tested.


You're welcome :)

There were press reports in the week after the murder (almost certainly based on leaks from the police or prosecutors) that the police had found usable fingerprints on Meredith's phones:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article426558.ece


But there's an intriguing Times report from 6th November, which mainly deals with the arrests of Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba. However, it contains a final paragraph which is of much more interest:

Police had been thought to be closing in on the killer after examining Ms Kercher’s diary and finding fingerprints on her mobile phones, one Italian and one English. The same fingerprints were reportedly also found in her bloodstained bedroom and on the front-door handle of the student house that she shared with three female friends.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2816366.ece


This information (again, almost certainly based on police/prosecutor leaks, since the only other possibility is complete fabrication by the reporter) seems to suggest that the police had matched the fingerprints found on the phones with prints in Meredith's room and on the front door handle.

Now, we know that fingerprint evidence from the phones was never presented in court by the prosecution. So what can this mean? Well, if the paragraph above is true, then surely the only person who would not be implicated by having their prints found both on Meredith's phone(s) and in her room would be Meredith herself. And since one has to assume that the police had taken Meredith's reference prints from her body, it's hard to understand why they wouldn't have looked to compare prints found on her phones and within her room with her own prints, as pretty much a first step.

So, the first possibility is that these prints all belonged to Meredith. But I'd argue that if this were the case, the police would have known this before they started briefing the press about it. Therefore, the police would have deliberately been leaking information to the media which they knew to be of no value to the case, but which they presumably thought would demonstrate their expertise in "solving the crime".

The second possibility is that the prints belonged to one of Knox, Sollecito or Guede. But since we know that the police found none of Knox's or Sollecito's prints in Meredith's room, we know that Guede would be the only one of the three that could possibly have his prints on the phone(s) and in Meredith's room. However, since no evidence of Guede's prints on the phone(s) was ever introduced into his trials, I discount this possibility too.

The third possibility is that the prints all belonged to some other, as-yet-unidentified individual. If so, this would clearly be massively important evidence which was withheld from the courts.

The fourth possibility is that there were indeed prints on the phone(s), but they actually belonged to either the people who found the phones in the garden (and presumably picked them up) or to the police who might have handled the phones when they were handed in. In the latter case, there's an intriguing possibility that one of the two postal police officers not only left his prints on the phone(s) when returning them to the cottage, but also inadvertently left his prints somewhere in Meredith's room (and remember that the police testified that they only fleetingly entered Meredith's room, and that they essentially touched nothing).

My guess is that the second and third possibilities listed above can be ruled out. I think the truth is either the first possibility (the prints were all Meredith's), or the fourth possibility (the prints all belonged to the same postal police officer - probably Batistelli*). Or there's another possibility: that there never were usable prints on the phones at all, and the police were "economical with the truth" when briefing the media.


* If they were all Batistelli's prints, it's probably little wonder that this whole issue of prints on the phones was swept under the carpet by the time of the trial: it would tend to directly contradict Batistelli's testimony if it were shown that his prints were also found in Meredith's room.
 
Last edited:
But I didn't think that Batistelli actually had the phones in his possession when he went to the cottage.
 
But I didn't think that Batistelli actually had the phones in his possession when he went to the cottage.


I believe that the Postal Police officers who came to the cottage that morning may have had Filomena's phone (which Meredith used as her Italian phone) in their possession, but not Meredith's UK phone. But even if that wasn't the case, there's a strong possibility that they handled Filomena's phone in the police station before leaving for the cottage. The UK phone was only handed in to the police station after the two postals had already left for the cottage, so it's far less likely that either of them ever directly handled it.
 
Postals did bring one of the phones with them to the cottage.


There seems to be conflicting evidence on whether Marzi and Battistelli actually had Filomena's handset in their possession when they travelled to the cottage that lunchtime. Some sources say they did, some say not, and neither Massei nor court reports make it clear either way. So I don't think it's possible to say with any degree of certainty that this was the case. However, as I mentioned in my previous post, in any case it's highly possible that one or both of the postal officers could have handled Filomena's handset in the police station - after it was handed in and before they set off for the cottage.
 
Paninaro:
"You mean Massei is just repeating the defence argument without stating his own interpretation?"

Yes.


"But doesn't this also inevitably leads to the conclusion that Massei doesn't draw; that the Postal Police are avoiding the truth in theit testimony?"

In Massei's report "so they seemed to think" or something like that.

"They should very well know that Sollecitos telling the truth because they have had him under observation the whole time at the cottage and they know he hadn't made any call."

This is not true. They withdrew in Amanda's room at some point (see Paola Grande testimony).
But anyway, I also think that at the trial they at least guessed that there was a problem with the timing.

'"Despite that, they testify that they arrive before the call were made"

They did not testify that they arrived before the call was made.
It is a conclusion from the time they gave.

"Were the Postal Police ever questioned about this apparent inconsistency in their testimony? They know they didn't arrive when they say they did."

Now they surely know.

"Massei doesn't resolve this paradox in his report, which is supposed to be a 400 pages long logical narrative of the events surrounding the crime."

He doesn't use it and in general he doesn't have to refute the prosecution's therories. He simply does not use them if he does not like them.
 
There seems to be conflicting evidence on whether Marzi and Battistelli actually had Filomena's handset in their possession when they travelled to the cottage that lunchtime. Some sources say they did, some say not, and neither Massei nor court reports make it clear either way. So I don't think it's possible to say with any degree of certainty that this was the case. However, as I mentioned in my previous post, in any case it's highly possible that one or both of the postal officers could have handled Filomena's handset in the police station - after it was handed in and before they set off for the cottage.

Agreed.

The issue of how many phones Battistelli had with him was brought up in court. It was important for the Carabinieri phone call argument. Luca Altieri saw two phones on the table in the cottage - Battistelli argued he brought only one of those.
 
"There is an explanation. It's Meredith."

It's only one of the possible explanations with its problems: skirt and time.
 
This is not true. They withdrew in Amanda's room at some point (see Paola Grande testimony).

That was later, after all the others arrived. Postals didn't testify about any such thing.

Do you think Raffaele called Carabinieri after Postals had arrived? I don't think it's worth arguing about yet another time.
 
"There is an explanation. It's Meredith."

It's only one of the possible explanations with its problems: skirt and time.

Given that we don't know the time ( or do you have the video with timestamps ) and it's impossible to see anything clear ( or do you have a better video? In that one from youtube I see trousers ) I can't see how it can be of any value to the guilt side.
 
"That was later, after all the others arrived."

No.
Paola Grande testified that when they arrived they were in the room.
 
"Do you think Raffaele called Carabinieri after Postals had arrived?"

No, I dont think so.

"I don't think it's worth arguing about yet another time."

I don't think it, either.
I simply corrected some of your mistakes.
 
"Given that we don't know the time"

I think I know.

"or do you have the video with timestamps"

From the available information it is quite simple to deduce.

"and it's impossible to see anything clear ( or do you have a better video? In that one from youtube I see trousers"

I have the same video.
I see a skirt.

"I can't see how it can be of any value to the guilt side. "

I think you see it very well. :D
 
Thus I agree with you and Bolint, that timestamp probably did read ~8:53, when the real time was actually 9:03-9:05!


Kaosium, Dan O. and Bolint.

I have posted mulitiple news reports. First from Nov 12, 2007 where news reports say the image is seen at 8:41-8:43 pm. Then again several reports in March 13, 2009 where the police testify the image was 8:41 p.m.

Please post evidence to back up your claim that the police moved the time to 8:41 p.m. because they thought the clock was fast.
 
"Given that we don't know the time"

I think I know.

"or do you have the video with timestamps"

From the available information it is quite simple to deduce.
One way or the other.


"and it's impossible to see anything clear ( or do you have a better video? In that one from youtube I see trousers"

I have the same video.
I see a skirt.

"I can't see how it can be of any value to the guilt side. "

I think you see it very well. :D
I don't think I remember Massei arguing it's Amanda in the video. Can you correct me again?
 
"I don't think I remember Massei arguing it's Amanda in the video. Can you correct me again? "

No, it is not argued.
Because the prosecution did not push it, as they pursued their wrong timing theory.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom