Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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AGAIN!?! Okee doke.

Basically, I do NOT believe that a group of men armed only with box cutters could penetrate the Pentagon's air space, and indeed damage it, "as a secondary target", without anyone knowing, or being able to stop it.

And if you told Copernicus that man would walk on the moon, you'd be viewed as...well...a moonbat.

While I am no expert on the timeline, when last I looked at it, the time it took between the first attack, us KNOWING there were other planes off course and unresponsive, and the time it takes to scramble intercept aircraft are "off"...

And the standard operating procedures of the day are......?

That our President sat there cowering with kids, rather than become the Commander in Chief, the ONLY man who could order a civilian jet be shot down, reeked of incompetence.

Cowering with kids? You got a lot to learn about the day's events. I suggest doing so with an open mind. If that's at all possible.
 
No, the fire that supposedly started the collapse had burned out over an hour earlier

If you say it like 10 more times, it'll magically be true. I swear. Try it!

Thank you for that brilliant piece of insight. However, my point is that there were only two fires at 1:30 and water was available.

I guess the real question then becomes, how come the firefighters lying under two 110 story buildings didn't get off their asses and rush to the aid of WTC 7?

Who cares how much water was available? It couldn't get to the fires. Period. Not in any way you think it could have.

Why are you still making that ridiculous statement?

OH I KNOW! Is it because, it's true?
 
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I know it sounds monday morning quarterback-ish, but when the country is under attack, you put the children's book DOWN, and tend to your military post.

The country wasn't under attack THEN - that was after one crash. At that point, all they knew was that there was a terrible accident.
 
Christopher7 said:
They talked to an "engineer" and then decided the building was unsafe.
Are you implying that a "real" engineer would have said the building was safe?

Here's the thing, C7: The damage from the debris may not have contributed to the collapse which took place that afternoon, but it is highly possible that, even if there were NO fires, there would have been some sort of catastrophic failure as a result of the damage sooner or later. The building was seen to be deflecting, which means those columns were under load and deforming slowly. If they were bending, and engineers didn't manage to get it shored, at some point that deformation would have become plastic and then the deformation would have been rapid and complete to failure. If the loads didn't transfer successfully to the surrounding structure, which certainly isn't a given, there would have been at least a partial collapse of the building in the damaged area.

Any contention that the building was safe for anyone without substantial repairs is just ignorant.
 
Why is "engineer" in scare quotes?
Because the "engineer" predicted that WTC 7 would collapse in 5 hours. The debris damage did NOT seriously weaken the building and had no significant effect on the collapse. At about 1:20, when he made that prediction, there were normal office fires on two floors. If you believe that someone could predict that WTC 7 would collapse 5 hours in advance at all, much given the actual conditions, you will believe anything you are spoon fed by the PTB, no matter how absurd.

And a good engineer would have thought the building was unsafe. Especially after it started to look like it was leaning.
The building was not leaning. :D

Hayden said there was a bulge at the SW corner between floors 10 and 13. He did NOT say the building was leaning.
 
Basically, I do NOT believe that a group of men armed only with box cutters could penetrate the Pentagon's air space, and indeed damage it, "as a secondary target", without anyone knowing, or being able to stop it.

While I am no expert on the timeline, when last I looked at it, the time it took between the first attack, us KNOWING there were other planes off course and unresponsive, and the time it takes to scramble intercept aircraft are "off"...

That our President sat there cowering with kids, rather than become the Commander in Chief, the ONLY man who could order a civilian jet be shot down, reeked of incompetence.

I think it is far more likely that we, someone, or a group of people KNEW there was going to be an attack, and that the attack was not stopped, but rather allowed to continue unencumbered.

Given the look of President Bush's face as he sat there knowing "we are under attack", he was likely out of the loop.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2702750&postcount=15
 
Because the "engineer" predicted that WTC 7 would collapse in 5 hours. The debris damage did NOT seriously weaken the building and had no significant effect on the collapse. At about 1:20, when he made that prediction, there were normal office fires on two floors. If you believe that someone could predict that WTC 7 would collapse 5 hours in advance at all, much given the actual conditions, you will believe anything you are spoon fed by the PTB, no matter how absurd.

The building was not leaning. :D

Hayden said there was a bulge at the SW corner between floors 10 and 13. He did NOT say the building was leaning.

Fact: The collapse was predicted.

Fact: Emergency personell were told not to go in because of it.

Fact: It DID collapse - due to damage sustained.

Fact: If you were running the show, many, many more firefighters would have died.
 
I know it sounds monday morning quarterback-ish, but when the country is under attack, you put the children's book DOWN, and tend to your military post.

Sitting in a room surrounded by children with your tail between your legs is NOT what the Commander in Chief SHOULD do. And this isn't what 'I' would do in that situation.

So he should have immediately started micromanaging a military response to what was then suspected to only be an accidental aircraft collision?

Because the "engineer" predicted that WTC 7 would collapse in 5 hours. The debris damage did NOT seriously weaken the building and had no significant effect on the collapse. At about 1:20, when he made that prediction, there were normal office fires on two floors. If you believe that someone could predict that WTC 7 would collapse 5 hours in advance at all, much given the actual conditions, you will believe anything you are spoon fed by the PTB, no matter how absurd.

The building was not leaning. :D

Hayden said there was a bulge at the SW corner between floors 10 and 13. He did NOT say the building was leaning.

If the engineer really predicted five hours then it just turns out he was right through a rough estimation. I once correctly predicted my travel time on a long car ride down to the minute. My friends were in awe of this but I knew I was just pulling out a guess and happened to be right.

What is important is that the engineer correctly knew that ordinary office fires will destroy a building if left unfought and that the amount of time it would take to get materials in place to fight the fire would have allowed the situation to be too unsafe to make it worth the effort. That the debris damage didn't turn out to have much effect is not important.
 
Are you implying that a "real" engineer would have said the building was safe?
I'm saying that the building was not in any danger of collapsing at 1:30 p.m. and no one could predict a collapse 5 hours in advance.

Here's the thing, C7: The damage from the debris may not have contributed to the collapse which took place that afternoon, but it is highly possible that, even if there were NO fires, there would have been some sort of catastrophic failure as a result of the damage sooner or later. The building was seen to be deflecting, which means those columns were under load and deforming slowly.
No! This is a ridiculous claim that y'all keep making based on what a firefighter 5 blocks away said. Hayden was right there and he did NOT say the building was leaning.

Furthermore, there is no mention of the building leaning in any NIST report.
 
So he should have immediately started micromanaging a military response to what was then suspected to only be an accidental aircraft collision?

You're off on the timeline. When Card tells Bush about the attack, it's the second tower he's telling him about. He heard about the first one on the way to the school. Everyone and their mother knew we were under attack at the second hit.
 
wow... I"m going to have serious bruising from all the
<facepalm>

Have you ever heard of a coal seam fire? Look them up and tell me how long they have burned...

You forgot pilot lights in gas ranges. They make about as much sense regarding the 99 day 9/11 fires as wildfires and underground coal fires.
 
I said the PTB and only a naive fool would think that they couldn't.
Real men don't take orders that get their own men killed or interfere with their duties. Try hanging out with a few sometime and see how they react when you suggest that some shadow government agency can just say "BOO" and make them back down.

They talked to an "engineer" and then decided the building was unsafe.
It ddn't look safe to the field commanders or hose draggers, so they brought their own engineer to look at it. (Big city fire deparetments have their own engineers on staff, you know. Or is that beyond your obviously limited knowledge of fire science?) The fire department engineer would not be looking at whether the building is salvagable or not, but whether or not there was any suggestion that it would be unsafe to enter. It creaks, it's dangerous. That simple. There was nobody inside to rescue. Bugger that. There were sites at which every available body was needed.

Rescue is the FIRST priority always, everywhere. They usually wind up putting the fire out first because it is an obvious impediment to the rescue attempt. The fires burning inside WTC 7 were less a hinderance to the rescue attempts than were the fires in the pile and in the pistol range and ammo and evidence lockers in WTC 6. Anything blowing up inside WTC 7, like computer monitors and fire extinguishers, would probably be contained inside the building. Most debris would just fall more or less straight down. The smoke was not a great deal more toxic than normal.

There were all manner of explosive substances in WTC 6. Some of it was highlly likely to have been meth-producing chemicals which are known to be toxic . God only knows what other chemicals and in what quantities were in the chem lab.

Ammunition can cook off one round at a time or it can detonated in a hellacious BOOM. Then you have fire and frag flying everywhere. No way in hell am I sending a crew in to work near that without also trying to secure the ammo.

Now, unless you have the figures as to how much water was needed to cover the other fires in the area, it does not make a damned bit of difference how much water you say was on the site. You still wind up only proving that you talk out the wrong end of your torso.

No, the fire that supposedly started the collapse had burned out over an hour earlier

No. There were fire still burning in there when the last piece of rubble stopped bouncing.
 
I'm saying that the building was not in any danger of collapsing at 1:30 p.m. and no one could predict a collapse 5 hours in advance.

Yes it was. 9 More times though, and your version will be true!

Furthermore, there is no mention of the building leaning in any NIST report.

Hang on a sec - I thought NIST was all stupid and stuff. I guess this proves it. Because they didn't say it was leaning, yet it was. So they were wrong.

you never did get around to telling the class why you keep referring to the NIST report, and yet constantly rail against it.
 
You forgot pilot lights in gas ranges. They make about as much sense regarding the 99 day 9/11 fires as wildfires and underground coal fires.

Listen kiddo - YOU said fires can't last 99 days. You've been shown numerous occasions where they DO.

Can't you just admit you were wrong and move on?
 
Fact: The collapse was predicted.
The building did NOT collapse due to any condition existing at 1:20 p.m.
No one could have predicted the building would collapse due tho thermal expansion at the east end of the building 5 hours later.

Fact: Emergency personell were told not to go in because of it.
Correct.

Fact: It DID collapse - due to damage sustained.
False.
It supposedly collapsed due to a fire that had burned out over an hour before the collapse.
 
The building did NOT collapse due to any condition existing at 1:20 p.m.
No one could have predicted the building would collapse due tho thermal expansion at the east end of the building 5 hours later.

What's the big deal about 1:20 again? Just how long do you think the firefighters would be expected to spend in that building fighting a fire in an empty building? 4 Hours? 6 Hours? 3 Days? So we send 'em in at 1:20 - they all die when it collapses. You fail, again.*

False.
It supposedly collapsed due to a fire that had burned out over an hour before the collapse.

8 more! The fire didn't burn out. It was still burning when it collapsed. Photos and video prove this. Fire caused the building to collapse. Period.

I'll ask you the same thing I ask FEMR and probably get ignored again -

How is your version of events proof of a controlled demolition?


* I can just imagine that conversation
Fire Chief - "Don't go in there. It's going to collapse. FEMA told me"
Fireman - "But it's not down yet - we can still save it!"

Engineer - "Well, It's ok with me so long as they know it's coming down in 5 hours"

Then they all run in the building to get killed because some ignorant troll on the internet said they should.
 
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Basically, I do NOT believe that a group of men armed only with box cutters could penetrate the Pentagon's air space, and indeed damage it, "as a secondary target", without anyone knowing, or being able to stop it.

Ok.
So you have incredulity that a grolp of men armed with only box cutters were a threat?

Have you ever seen what box cutters will do in a fight? How can a pilot who is strapped into a seat stop someone from cutting his throat from behind?

As for the part about being unknown... but it wasn't unknown. They knew that flight 77 was hijacked when they heard it.

Being able to stop it... you might want to see how many jet fighters were on alert in the US on 9/11... and where they were located.

Unless you think that the pentagon has air defenses like missle launchers or anti aircraft batteries? You should look into that.

While I am no expert on the timeline, when last I looked at it, the time it took between the first attack, us KNOWING there were other planes off course and unresponsive, and the time it takes to scramble intercept aircraft are "off"...

You might want to look at that. It is all a time and distance problem to intercept the aircraft. Look up where the 14 jets which were on alert were located and then look at the window they had to intercept.

That our President sat there cowering with kids, rather than become the Commander in Chief, the ONLY man who could order a civilian jet be shot down, reeked of incompetence.

Ah more incredulity... got it. P.s. He did order that any jet still flying be shot down.

I think it is far more likely that we, someone, or a group of people KNEW there was going to be an attack, and that the attack was not stopped, but rather allowed to continue unencumbered.
Then by all means produce some evidence of it. It is rather easy to do.
 
Hang on a sec - I thought NIST was all stupid and stuff.
I have stated many times that the data is mostly correct, it's their computer model and their conclusions that are fatally flawed.

I guess this proves it. Because they didn't say it was leaning, yet it was.
Hayden did NOT say the building was leaning.
No one at the scene said the building was leaning.
NIST did not say the building was leaning.

Yet you believe it was, based on what a firefighter 5 blocks away said.
 
Because the "engineer" predicted that WTC 7 would collapse in 5 hours. The debris damage did NOT seriously weaken the building and had no significant effect on the collapse. At about 1:20, when he made that prediction, there were normal office fires on two floors. If you believe that someone could predict that WTC 7 would collapse 5 hours in advance at all, much given the actual conditions, you will believe anything you are spoon fed by the PTB, no matter how absurd.

The building was not leaning. :D

Hayden said there was a bulge at the SW corner between floors 10 and 13. He did NOT say the building was leaning.

Accounts of WTC 7 Damage



1. The major concern at that time was number Seven, building number Seven, which had taken a big hit from the north tower. When it fell, it ripped steel out from between the third and sixth floors across the facade on Vesey Street. We were concerned that the fires on several floors and the missing steel would result in the building collapsing. –FDNY Chief Frank Fellini

2. At that time, other firefighters started showing up, Deputy Battalion Chief Paul Ferran of the 41 Battalion, and James Savastano of the First Division assigned to the Second Battalion showed up and we attempted to search and extinguish, at the time which was small pockets of fire in 7 World Trade Center. We were unaware of the damage in the front of 7, because we were entering from the northeast entrance. We weren't aware of the magnitude of the damage in the front of the building. – FDNY Captain Anthony Varriale http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110313.PDF

3. [Shortly after the tower collapses] I don’t know how long this was going on, but I remember standing there looking over at building 7 and realizing that a big chunk of the lower floors had been taken out on the Vesey Street side. I looked up at the building and I saw smoke in it, but I really didn't see any fire at that time. Deputy ––Chief Nick Visconti http://tinyurl.com/paqux

4. A few minutes after that a police officer came up to me and told me that the façade in front of Seven World Trade Center was gone and they thought there was an imminent collapse of Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Lieutenant William Melarango http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110045.PDF

5. I think they said they had seven to ten floors that were freestanding and they weren't going to send anyone in. –FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110055.PDF

6. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. But they had a hose line operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too.

Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandeis came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.
Firehouse Magazine: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?
Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.
Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?
Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered through there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. – Capt. Chris Boyle http://tinyurl.com/e7bzp

7. After the initial blast, Housing Authority worker Barry Jennings, 46, reported to a command center on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center. He was with Michael Hess, the city's corporation counsel, when they felt and heard another explosion [the collapse of the north tower]. First calling for help, they scrambled downstairs to the lobby, or what was left of it. "I looked around, the lobby was gone. It looked like hell," Jennings said. http://www.record-eagle.com/2001/sep/11scene.htm

8. Anyway, I was looking at WTC7 and I noticed that it wasn’t looking like it was straight. It was really weird. The closest corner to me (the SE corner) was kind of out of whack with the SW corner. It was impossible to tell whether that corner (the SW) was leaning over more or even if it was leaning the other way. With all of the smoke and the debris pile, I couldn’t exactly tell what was going on, but I sure could see the building was leaning over in a way it certainly should not be. I asked another guy looking with me and he said “That building is going to come down, we better get out of here.” So we did. –M.J., Employed at 45 Broadway, in a letter to me.

9. So we left 7 World Trade Center, back down to the street, where I ran into Chief Coloe from the 1st Division, Captain Varriale, Engine 24, and Captain Varriale told Chief Coloe and myself that 7 World Trade Center was badly damaged on the south side and definitely in danger of collapse. Chief Coloe said we were going to evacuate the collapse zone around 7 World Trade Center, which we did. – FDNY Lieutenant Rudolph Weindler http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110462.PDF

10. Just moments before the south tower collapsed and, you know, when it happened we didn't know it was the south tower. We thought it was the north tower. There was a reporter of some sort, female with blond hair and her cameraman, an oriental fellow. They were setting up outside 7 World Trade Center, just east of the pedestrian bridge. I told them it would probably be better off to be set up under the bridge. At least it was protected. I was just about to enter a dialogue with her when I heard a sound I never heard before. I looked up and saw this huge cloud. I told him run. I grabbed the female, I threw her through the revolving doors of number 7.

We were proceeding inside. She fell to the ground. I helped her out, I pushed her towards the direction of where we were all in the south corner and there was a little doorway behind that desk which led into the loading bays. Everybody started to run through that. Never made it to that door. The next thing that I remember was that I was covered in some glass and some debris. Everything came crashing through the front of number 7. It was totally pitch black.

Q. Were you injured?

A. Yes, I saw some stuff had fallen on me. I didn't believe that I was injured at that time. I discovered later on I was injured. I had some shards of glass impaled in my head, but once I was able to get all this debris and rubble off of me and cover my face with my jacket so that I could breathe, it was very thick dust, you couldn't see. We heard some sounds. We reached out and felt our way around. I managed to find some other people in this lower lobby. We crawled over towards the direction where we thought the door was and as we approached it the door cracked open a little, so we had the lights from the loading bay. We made our way over there. The loading bay doors were 3-fourths of the way shut when this happened, so they took a lot of dust in there, but everyone in those bays was safe and secure. We had face to face contact with Chief Maggio and Captain Nahmod. They told me – I said do whatever you need to do, get these people out of here. Go, go towards the water. –EMS Division Chief Jon Peruggia
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110160.PDF

11. You could see the damage at 7 World Trade Center, the damage into the AT&T building.
–FDNY Firefighter Vincent Palmieri http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110258.PDF

12. At this point, 7, which is right there on Vesey, the whole corner of the building was missing. I was thinking to myself we are in a bad place, because it was the corner facing us. –Fred Marsilla, FDNY
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110399.PDF

13. The way we got into the loading dock [of WTC 7] was not the way we were getting out. It was obstructed.

Q. The door was blocked?

A. Yeah, and we found our way -- we walked across the loading dock area, and we found there was another door. We went in that door, and from there we were directed to -- I really guess it was like a basement area of the building, but we were directed to an opposite door. –Dr. Michael Guttenberg , NYC Office of Medical Affairs http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110005.PDF

14. We eventually ended up meeting after the second explosion, three of us met up here, but I didn't see a lot of the people that were with me until two, three days later. I got word that they were okay. For instance, Dr. Guttenberg and Dr. Asaeda, who were at 7 World Trade Center, they got trapped in there and had to like climb in and out and get out because that building also became very damaged supposedly and they were there. We thought they were dead. I guess he was in an area where Commissioner Tierney might have been, I believe. I think she was in 7 also. –Paramedic Manuel Delgado http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110004.PDF

(After collapse of south tower)
15. The decision was either to go left or right and we ended up going right, between the two buildings, in the alleyway on the north, which turned out to be the right direction because apparently there was a lot of debris and part of 7 down already. Also, I did notice as I was making my exit the sound of the firefighters' alarms indicating that they were down. I did remember that as well but just could not see anything. –Dr. Glenn Asaeda http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/sept11_fdny_transcripts/9110062.PDF

16. I saw the firefighter. There were people screaming out of one of these two buildings over here saying they couldn't get out, and my partner took one straggler fireman, the one that we had with us, and was trying to break the door because the door obviously had shifted or something. They couldn't get the door open.

Q: That was 7 World Trade Center?

A: I believe it was 7. Maybe it was 5. It was at the back end of it because I do remember the telephone company [which is next to building 7]. So I think it was the back end of 7, I think right over here at that point, and they couldn't get out. Then I had ran down the block and I flagged a ladder company and they brought the ladder, which they had like a vestibule that you couldn't like really reach the people because the ladder wouldn't reach. So they went and got other resources, they went inside the building, and I told my partner that it wasn't safe and that we need to go because everything around us was like falling apart. –EMT Nicole Ferrell http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110304.PDF

17. The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower. – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)

18. At that point, they said that Seven World Trade had no face and it was ready to collapse. – EMT Mercedes Rivera: (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 29)

19. You see the white smoke, you see the thing leaning like this? It's definitely going. There's no way to stop it. 'Cause you have to go up in there to put it out, and it's already, the structural integrity is not there. –Unidentified firefighter in this video.

20. As far as I was concerned, we were still trapped. I was hopeful. things were looking a whole lot better now than they were just a few minutes earlier, but we were a long way from safe and sound. Five World Trade Center was fully involved, Six World Trade Center was roaring pretty good, and behind them Seven World Trade Center was teetering on collapse.
The buildings just behind him and to his left were looking like they too might collapse at any time, and there were whole chunks of concrete falling to both sides. Flames dancing everywhere. The small-arms detonations were kicking up a notch or two, and it sounded like this poor guy was being fired at, by snipers or unseen terrorists, at close range. (Last Man Down by Richard Picciotto, FDNY Battalion Commander Penguin Books, 2002. page 191)



 
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