• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Chiropractors are real doctors

Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
828
OK, I'm actually considering going to a chiropractor to seek relief for lower back pain. This guy offers a "Spinal Decompression" therapy which looks promising. However, looking round his website, I found this:

http://coolchiro.com/wellness_topics/c_46_chiro_myths__facts.html

Some of those claims seem exaggerated, like this one "... In fact, chiropractors have more hours of classroom education than their medical counterparts". My BS meter went off the charts.
 
If it's supposed to mean they have more schooling than a masseuse, maybe.

Becoming a medical doctor takes at least 10 years. The highest requirement I can find for a chiropractic license is a Bachelor of Science degree in human biology. I could get that in 3 or 4 years
 
OK, I'm actually considering going to a chiropractor to seek relief for lower back pain. This guy offers a "Spinal Decompression" therapy which looks promising. However, looking round his website, I found this:

http://coolchiro.com/wellness_topics/c_46_chiro_myths__facts.html

Some of those claims seem exaggerated, like this one "... In fact, chiropractors have more hours of classroom education than their medical counterparts". My BS meter went off the charts.

Well, they may indeed sit on their duffs in a classroom more. Med students start doing clinical work after their second year of med school. In the US, both med schools and chiropractic schools are generally 4 years.

As to lower back pain, you'll do just as well with PT.

SBM is a good source of info:

The research which has been done into the effectiveness of manipulative therapy can best be summarized as suggesting a role for spinal manipulation in the symptomatic treatment of uncomplicated low back pain, provided adequate medical screening is performed. This includes manipulation by some chiropractors, or by physical therapists, physiatrists and others. Manipulation is no more effective, and is often more expensive than, other forms of treatment – such as best medical management or simple physical therapy with good home back care.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/chiropractic-a-brief-overview-part-ii/

Lots of other articles about chiropractic at the site.

Quackwatch author has an entire site devoted to chiropractic:
http://www.chirobase.org/

As to spinal decompression therapy:

All the claims listed above are false. Ads like this are promoting a machine that promises nonsurgical spinal decompression (the DRX 9000 or a related device). These machines are not a breakthrough of any kind; they’re just a fancy technological gimmick for providing old-fashioned traction. The same traction that has been rejected by mainstream medicine because it does nothing to change the outcome and seldom even does anything to temporarily relieve symptoms. The FDA approval is a “grandfathered” 510(k) clearance that only says the new device is equivalent to older traction devices so it doesn’t require separate approval. The “doctors” are almost always chiropractors, and not identifying themselves as chiropractors is a direct violation of their own published ethics guidelines. Claims for effectiveness are based on junk science: case reports and uncontrolled, poor quality pilot studies usually funded by the manufacturer. There is NO acceptable evidence that these machines are effective, and a recent review article in the chiropractors’ own literature says as much. These treatments DO have side effects; they sometimes aggravate symptoms and can harm patients. They cannot “correct” ruptured discs and the FTC does not allow them to claim that they can.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/misleading-ads-for-back-pain-treatment/
 
Last edited:
It's quite surprising how many people think "chrio=back doctor", as in MD. It's gonna take a lot of education and awareness to change that.
 
Speaking as someone with lower back pain who has actually undergone spinal decompression therapy (off and on for the past 2.5-3 years or so, in fact), I found it to be the only effective treatment to deal with my pain issues. I suffered from fairly constant low-level pain that would spike if I overdid something because I thought there wasn't anything I could do to mitigate the issue; physical therapy didn't do much, if anything. I started to see my chiropractor at the recommendation of a physical trainer I was working with at the gym, and I don't regret it for a single instant. Spinal decompression, if done correctly, does work; the trick is to find a doctor who isn't using it in drastic fashions. My chiro actually pioneered the protocols for the treatment in the area I'm in currently, such as placing an upper limit on the "pull" the machine does (he doesn't go above 75 pounds of pull; some people were arguing that it could go up to half your body weight, so in a 200 pound person, that's 100 pounds of pull!). My recommendation, if you do decide to go through with it, carefully ask the doctor about the protocols he/she follows, ask if you can observe how the machine actually works, and ask what else the chiro will do to help ease the pain. My doctor combines electrostimulation with some deep tissue work and the spinal decompression; he rarely adjusts me, and then only when it's fairly clear something's out of alignment.

Long and the short of my response; be careful, ask questions, but don't brush off a potential pain-relieving therapy. It really does depend on the how the chiropractor implements the therapy, in my opinion, as to whether it works or not.
 
To second this, chiroprators don't help themselves with the quackery they come out with. but for lower back problems they can be excellent (though it has to be combined with a PT course of exercises to build muscle strength to maintain the gains. I've known two individuals whose lives were gretly helped by this (one prolapsed lumbar disc, the other a twisted pelvis causing hip pain). Both were effectively cured (at the time) by a dual course of treatment by the chiro to provide immediate(ish) relief and PT to provide the exercises to deal with the underlying problem.
 
Speaking as someone with lower back pain who has actually undergone spinal decompression therapy (off and on for the past 2.5-3 years or so, in fact), I found it to be the only effective treatment to deal with my pain issues. I suffered from fairly constant low-level pain that would spike if I overdid something because I thought there wasn't anything I could do to mitigate the issue; physical therapy didn't do much, if anything. I started to see my chiropractor at the recommendation of a physical trainer I was working with at the gym, and I don't regret it for a single instant. Spinal decompression, if done correctly, does work; the trick is to find a doctor who isn't using it in drastic fashions. My chiro actually pioneered the protocols for the treatment in the area I'm in currently, such as placing an upper limit on the "pull" the machine does (he doesn't go above 75 pounds of pull; some people were arguing that it could go up to half your body weight, so in a 200 pound person, that's 100 pounds of pull!). My recommendation, if you do decide to go through with it, carefully ask the doctor about the protocols he/she follows, ask if you can observe how the machine actually works, and ask what else the chiro will do to help ease the pain. My doctor combines electrostimulation with some deep tissue work and the spinal decompression; he rarely adjusts me, and then only when it's fairly clear something's out of alignment.

Long and the short of my response; be careful, ask questions, but don't brush off a potential pain-relieving therapy. It really does depend on the how the chiropractor implements the therapy, in my opinion, as to whether it works or not.
Sabrina,

Hopefully there will be quality studies that support your doctor's protocol as safe and effective. "It worked for me" may be perfectly true. IMO, whether it is the first treatment to try or the last desperate attempt depends upon what the science says. I'm glad you found some relief.

CT
 
For something that I "know" is due to nerve irritation, such as sciatica (which I experienced as a red-hot rubber band from my Sacral area to my Achilles tendon at my heel), I might give it a try (once I had a bad, persistent case, and a co-worker had me lay on my side on the floor, and he put one hand on my hip and one on my shoulder and when he could feel I was relaxed enough, pushed one while pulling the other; there was a satisfying "pop" and I had immediate, total relief: He said a chiropractor-relative had taught him.), but for the MYRIAD other things they claim to "adjust" for - not so much.

I have heard anecdotes of "cures" for crossed eyes, kidney disease, cancer, bad mood, psychosis, etc., but I don't believe it at all. They seem to want to "hook" clients into regular adjustments, and what they can't give immediate relief for, they claim that continued visits will "Real Soon Now" provide the cure.

I think some people get positive feedback just because "something is being done, and he's such a ^nice^ man", plus the gratification of the attention being on them and the "gentle, caring, touching" they get.

Just my $0.02 there.:D

Cheers,

Dave
 
Chirotalk: The Skeptical Chiropractic Discussion Forum

What I remember from that forum was a lot of current and former chiros complaining about how crappy their business really is. "Wanna buy my practice?" And stuff like that.

Jon Stewart interviewed a former SEAL with a book out recently. Dude talked about getting ptsd, going through the dark night of the soul, and then a woo-loving princess helped him to wellness so he could become... a chiropractor. God love a duck. First time I've ever given a pass to someone calling themselves that :p

Yeah there's probably some value, somewhere, I dunno

I like to hang from a bar, spinal decompression, feels good anyway :)
 
Last edited:
One other thing I would say about my doctor, is that he is very willing to avoid adjustments, and indeed gives a free consultation visit (which can take up to an hour or more to conduct; he doesn't skimp) to anyone to determine if his therapies will help them or not. I'll say it again; that first consultation is TOTALLY 100% FREE. He isn't the type of chiro who manufactures problems in a person in order to gain their attendance in his office; he actually cares about his patients and wants to help them feel better. He has access to people who can supplement his therapies (like a physical therapist I saw briefly to help strengthen the muscles in my back) as well. I know I lucked into finding him; all the horror stories I've read about with chiropractic medicine would be enough to make me never want to see one again, if I hadn't met Dr. Verma.

So what I would say to someone considering chiropractic treatment is to very very carefully research the doctor you are considering going to; try to get in touch with some of his/her other patients and ask them for their opinions, seek out reviews online (although those can be skewed badly IMO), get specifics on the exact treatments offered, and above all, don't be afraid to ask questions or refuse a treatment if it makes you uncomfortable. Also be aware that people respond differently to different treatments; what works for someone like me may not work for others. I'm well aware of that. :) My particular problem resulted from an injury to the site rather than simple degeneration as I aged, which may have affected the efficacy of the treatment; someone with simple degeneration may not respond as well as I did.
 
It's funny how the things we believe in aren't woo, just the things those other folks say 'worked for me'
 
OK, I'm actually considering going to a chiropractor to seek relief for lower back pain. This guy offers a "Spinal Decompression" therapy which looks promising. However, looking round his website, I found this:

http://coolchiro.com/wellness_topics/c_46_chiro_myths__facts.html

Some of those claims seem exaggerated, like this one "... In fact, chiropractors have more hours of classroom education than their medical counterparts". My BS meter went off the charts.[/QUOTE)

The only sense in which they are real doctors is US law says they are - essentially the same reason homeopathic crap and related can be sold to gullible/frightened incompetants as medicine as long as claims are carefully worded.
I do not intend belittling here of people who buy/use homeopathy due to having a fatal condition that is untreatable and being afraid of dying - I use incompetant not as a perjorative but purely as meaning the fear reponse makes them act in a not competant way. As to the gullible, that is not the case.
 
Chirotalk: The Skeptical Chiropractic Discussion Forum

What I remember from that forum was a lot of current and former chiros complaining about how crappy their business really is. "Wanna buy my practice?" And stuff like that.

This is the real concern I would want to bring to the attention of anybody considering a career in chiropractic.

The student loan default rate is very high, and the reason seems to be that it's an intensely competitive profession - too many chiropractors for this mature market.

1993 figures summarized: http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/loan.html

You can do your own current estimate via: http://www.defaulteddocs.dhhs.gov/
 
OK, I'm actually considering going to a chiropractor to seek relief for lower back pain. This guy offers a "Spinal Decompression" therapy which looks promising. However, looking round his website, I found this:

http://coolchiro.com/wellness_topics/c_46_chiro_myths__facts.html

Some of those claims seem exaggerated, like this one "... In fact, chiropractors have more hours of classroom education than their medical counterparts". My BS meter went off the charts.
In case it hasn't been pointed out yet, I would suggest that the number of hours you study is not quite as important as what you are studying. Or, as the old saying goes, you can send an ass to university but he won't come back a horse.
 
This is the real concern I would want to bring to the attention of anybody considering a career in chiropractic.

The student loan default rate is very high, and the reason seems to be that it's an intensely competitive profession - too many chiropractors for this mature market.

In a different forum, someone once asked, "Why is it that chiropractors are all slick salesmen?"

I answered, it's because chiropractors who AREN'T slick salesmen don't last long as chiropractors.
 
So what I would say to someone considering chiropractic treatment is to very very carefully research the doctor you are considering going to; try to get in touch with some of his/her other patients and ask them for their opinions, seek out reviews online.....


I would say that's exactly how not to do it.
 
Chiropractors are real doctors
No, they are not. They are quacks. A few of them have educated themselves in the field of physical therapy. Of those, the ones who reject the entire basis for their practice, that of "subluxation", may, according to some studies, equal placebo care for back pain. And since scientific evidence based medicine doesn't have enough to offer some sufferers of chronic back pain, there are some in the skeptic community that accept some chiropractic care. I am not one of them. Dr Barrett of Quackwatch is, with reservations, though he has backed off on his approval over the years. We had an email debate over it years ago.

Chiropractic history WP

Division within the profession has been intense, with "mixers" combining spinal adjustments with other treatments, and "straights" relying solely on spinal adjustments. A conference sponsored by the National Institutes of Health in 1975 spurred the development of chiropractic research. The American Medical Association called chiropractic an "unscientific cult" and boycotted it until losing a 1987 antitrust case. For most of its existence, chiropractic has battled with mainstream medicine, sustained by antiscientific and pseudoscientific ideas such as subluxation. By the mid 1990s there was a growing scholarly interest in chiropractic, which helped efforts to improve service quality and establish clinical guidelines such as recommending manual therapies for acute low back pain....

...Serious research to test chiropractic theories did not begin until the 1970s, and is continuing to be hampered by antiscientific and pseudoscientific ideas that sustained the profession in its long battle with organized medicine.[12
Those pseudoscientific ideas evolve around the initial failed hypothesis that ALL disease stems from an unaligned spine. It's absurd. Watching subluxations under fluoroscope shows subluxation does nothing, nerves are not impinged in the first place. And I have yet to find a blinded study demonstrating chiropractors can consistently tell an adjusted spine from an unadjusted spine. Why hasn't this most simple of studies been done? Because chiropractors are frauds, of course.
 

Back
Top Bottom