are communists necessarily anti-semitic?

[Skeptic]

There is no way to take either of these articles seriously, and if this is the general standard of the articles, I cannot understand why anyone who has even the crudest of eduction would not see it as a collection of kindergarten-level essays produced for comic effect.

Haughty dismissal, the last resort of those defeated in an argument.

I would say, from experience, that Daniels is quite correct. The left's hatred of Israel is, not only antisemitic (it supports those who would genocide the Jews, such as Hamas) but also contemptous of Arabs: you never get more than a vague shrug when Arab governments do far worse than Israel does, because, after all, they're just Arabs; no use expecting civilized behavior from such savages.

By the way, if you want to see a good example how the usual communist relics and hangers-on ruin everything for those Arabs who, mirablis dictu, actually seem to want democracy and freedom as opposed to the destruction of Israel and/or Islamic theocracy, go here. It goes without saying that the moment a protest is taken over by the communists, however just its cause, any chance of anybody taking it seriously goes straight out the window.

I agree with most of what "Zombie" says in that essay except for the last part, where he decides that the original protesters were also communists. It doesn't seem likely -- although perhaps they did get their flags and paraphenalia from them. They aren't nearly hate-filled enough for that, and their posters don't mention a single one of the standard-issue Sihhboleths ("American Imperialism", "evil zionists", etc., etc.) of the communists.

 

[Skeptic]

The goals of the USSR included the destruction of the bourgeois and global revolution. Therefore America's 41-45 support for the USSR means it was also in favor of the destruction of the bourgeois and global revolution?

If Israel declared tomorrow that its goal is to put all the Arabs in the world in concentration camps and gas them, and started doing just that, I would certainly think supporting Hamas would be excusable, however awful it is, the alternative being worse. This is why the USA supported the USSR against Nazi Germany -- it was either supporting someone who *wants* global revolution and the destruction of the burgenois, or someone who *actually is* committing genocide and enslavement of millions *right now*. It was indeed a Hobson's choice, but there was, no pun intended, no choice.

But someone who supported the USSR in, say, 1965, without extreme circumstances forcing his hand, is, I would say, indeed in favor of such a revolution and the destruction of the burgenois. In fact the pro-USSR supporters in the 1960s to today keep saying just that, that they want a world revolution and hate the burgenois. Similarly, someone who today supports Hamas is someone who, it is extremely likely, agrees with its goals. At the very least it considers its goal of genocide of the Jews to not be something important enough to *not* support it, which shows how much genociding Jews matters to the Hamas supporter -- that is, not at all. "Dead Jews don't matter to me" is just about the very definition of antisemitism.

But this whole discussion is absurd. Why is it that the same people who can smell (say) homophobia or racism or chauvinism from 100 paces, in homeopathic concentrations, suddenly find it so incredibly hard to determine if supporting an orgnization of holocaust-denying would-be genociders of the Jews is REALLY antisemitic? Imagine Hamas wasn't against Jews but against Blacks, wanting to establish an all-white country somewhere while killing all Black people there, due to grievances it has against the way Blacks treated Whites in the area. Would you find it difficult to determine if someone who supports THAT organization is a racist? No? Exactly.

 

[Kotatsu]

Haughty dismissal, the last resort of those defeated in an argument.

Brave words from someone who has not even dared to respond to critics of his insular world-view throughout the thread. Did you, by the way, notice that I posted reasons for dismissing these two articles?

How about actually providing some evidence for your claims?

 

[Kotatsu]

But this whole discussion is absurd.

Well, it is a discussion on your absurd claim, so what did you expect? Did you believe that your absurd claim would somehow be less absurd because more people discussed it?

Why is it that the same people who can smell (say) homophobia or racism or chauvinism from 100 paces, in homeopathic concentrations, suddenly find it so incredibly hard to determine if supporting an orgnization of holocaust-denying would-be genociders of the Jews is REALLY antisemitic? Imagine Hamas wasn't against Jews but against Blacks, wanting to establish an all-white country somewhere while killing all Black people there, due to grievances it has against the way Blacks treated Whites in the area. Would you find it difficult to determine if someone who supports THAT organization is a racist? No? Exactly.

Let us pretend that you are correct. All anti-Israel sentiment are inherently anti-semitic. Where does that leave us? Does that imply that communism is necessarily anti-semitic? Is it an inherent characteristic of communism to be anti-semitic? Or even to be anti-Israel? If so, what is your evidence of this?

As I have said, I detest the murderers in Hamas and similar organisations. I disagree entirely with people I know who support the Hamas. I unreservedly support the existence of the state of Israel, and agree that at least in most cases, Israel is fully justified in its policies against Hamas, Hizbullah and similar guilds of assassins. I fully support the present location of Israel, as well as whatever borders they claim. I have nothing against Jews, and treat them like I would any other person: like humans.

Still, I call myself communist, and this label is accepted by friends of mine on the left even if they know about my stance in the Israel-Palestine question. It has never happened that any of them has claimed that I cannot call myself a communist, because I support Israel. Or because I don't hate Jews. Or because I don't support Hamas.

So clearly one of us is wrong, here.

Either you are right, and a communist has to be an anti-semite, because that is part of what being a communist means. In that case, I am wrong to call myself a communist and will have to find something else to self-identify as.

Or, I am right in calling myself a communist even though I do not hate Jews and support Israel, because there is nothing in being a communist that forces me to have any given opinion -- or indeed any opinion -- on the Israel-Palestine situation at all. In that case, you are wrong in claiming that anti-semitism is an inherent part of communism.

Again, I do not deny that there may be genuine anti-semites on the political left, and I do not deny that some leftists may support Hamas because they are anti-semites, and I do not deny that Hamas is anti-semite. I do ask you to show that whatever stance any communist group takes on the Israel-Palestine issue, that stance is an inherent part of them being communists. I ask you to prove your implied claim that even if the state of Israel was not in any conflict with any of its neighbours or any other state or group, communists would still be anti-Israel and anti-semitic because that is an inherent feature in communism as such. I ask you to prove your implied claim that even if there were no state of Israel, communists would still hate Jews because that is an inherent part of being communist.

But so far, you prefer to run away.

 

[Skeptic]

How about actually providing some evidence for your claims?

Well, Theodore Dalrymple (the pen name of Dr. Antony Daniels) has been a physician in a British poor neighborhood for about 40 years, and travelled extensively in numerous parts of the world -- especially in those "liberated" by "socialist revolutions". Your glib dismissal of his views show you know nothing about his experience or his reputation as one of the most important essayists of our time.

I, on the other hand, read a lot of his work; four or five books, in fact. But let me guess: now that it turns out that I know the person you criticized so glibly very well, my reading of him just shows I am stupid for taking such a "fool" seriously, right?

 

[bikerdruid]

I don't see where you get "Judaism is anti-working class" from anything he said. Care to back that up a bit?
............................
I don't see how any of that can be extrapolated from anything Skeptic said either.
.........................
I don't see any of that in evidence either.

you are very obviously not reading skeptic's posts, or are choosing to be obtuse.

 

[Kaylee]

I've read that 6% of the Israeli GNP is attributable to kibbutzim. I couldn't find out what percentage were attributable to moshavim. 6% isn't a huge number, but doesn't it prove that they are paying their way?

Which to my knowledge is not based on the past Kibbutz model. The GNP share is due to the industries based within Kibbutz limits. The several kibbutzim that I've resided in in the past also have industrial and commercial components, but the profits are individual ones and don't trickle back into the community itself as profit margins increase, ie Shamir Optical Industry as traded on NASDAQ follows a free-market model.

Well, that's confusing. If they are no longer a kibbutz, why are they calling themselves a kibbutz? That's a rhetorical question, I don't expect you to answer it. I would suppose that the only ones that could answer the question would be the people running the kibbutzim that aren't in fact kibbutzim.

Well, does a kibbutz cease to be a kibbutz if it doesn't strictly adhere to the socialist model of communal living, etc. that it started off with?

Personally, I would still call it a kibbutz even if there are residents there that have personal income outside of the kibbutz and have a mix of communal standards and free-market practices...

Bigjelmapro, since you have lived on 7 kibbutzim, perhaps you would be able to describe how the current kibbutz model defers from the past?

My understanding is that one definition of communism is that all property is publicly owned and that people work according to their abilities and are paid according to their needs.

Since the kibbutzim are within the boundaries of Israel, a parliamentary democracy, and its members are citizens of Israel -- to whatever extent that kibbutzim were and are communist has to be due to how they were managed internally.

If you have the info, I'd like to hear more about what the typical model is now (if in fact the 270 or so kibbutzim are similar enough to have a typical model) before I give my opinion as to whether they could still be considered a communist economic model for their members at least as far as their internal affairs.

I'm particularly interested in what the typical model is for an "urban kibbutz". Per this Wiki article there are about a 100 of them. But I've not been able to find out how a typical urban model is set up and managed. Do they have to have a means of bringing in income by owning a factory or a store for example? Or do some of them just share expenses?

According to this Wiki article:

During the 1980s, following the peak of the kibbutzim crisis, many people started leaving their kibbutzim, and there was considerable tension due to the economic situation. In order to cope with the situation, some kibbutzim began to change in various ways.

The changes which occurred could be divided into three main types:
Extensive privatization of the kibbutz services - in fact, such privatization had been introduced over the past two decades in many kibbutzim. Most of these privatization processes, however, were made in matters which were considered relatively minor. Currently, many kibbutzim which have privatized (some of them with subsidies) have also privatized the education and health systems, which were once considered untouchable.[citation needed]
"Differential wage" - one famous characteristic of the kibbutzim was that each kibbutz member received an equal budget according to his or her needs, regardless of what job they held. In many kibbutzim, members are now paid differentially based on the work they do.
"Association of properties" - refers to the transfer of some of the properties which belong to the kibbutz, in its capacity as a cooperative commonality, to the ownership of individual kibbutz members. This is actually true privatization (unlike the services privatization). These assets include the homes where the members live and a sort of a "stock" in the manufacturing component of the kibbutz. This change allows kibbutz members to sell and bequeath both types of properties, within certain limitations.

Since the mid 1990s, the number of kibbutzim making significant changes in their lifestyle continued to grow, while the resistance to these changes gradually decreased, with only a few dozen kibbutzim still functioning under more traditional models. It is important to note, however, that each kibbutz has undergone different processes of change. There are many people, outside and inside the kibbutzim, who claim these changes bring to an end the kibbutz concept. Among the communities which had recently ceased being kibbutzim (officially): are Megiddo in the Jezreel Valley, HaGoshrim in the Upper Galilee, Beit Nir in the Negev, etc.[citation needed]

These processes have created the "renewing kibbutz" (הקיבוץ המתחדש ) – a kibbutz settlement pattern which isn't fully based on the original values of the kibbutz. Kibbutzim continuing under the original kibbutz values are associated with the "collaborative model" (הזרם השיתופי).
New compensation models

There are now three kibbutz compensation models. 1) The traditional collective kibbutz/kibbutz shitufi, in which members are compensated equally, regardless of what work each member does; 2) the mixed model kibbutz/kibbutz meshulav, in which each member is given a small percentage of his salary along with a basic component given equally to all kibbutz members; and 3) the renewing kibbutz/kibbutz mithadesh, in which a member’s income consists solely of his individual income from his work and sometimes includes income from other kibbutz sources.[14]

According to a survey conducted by the University of Haifa 188 of all kibbutzim (72%) are now converted to the "renewing kibbutz" model, which could be described as capitalist kibbutz. Dr. Shlomo Getz, head of the Institute for the Research of the Kibbutz and the Cooperative Idea believes that by the end of 2012, there will be more kibbutzim switching to some alternative model.

Capitalist kibbutz? Isn't that an oxymoron? If the Wiki article is accurate I would say that at least 72% of the kibbutzim no longer fit the communist model.

 

[bikerdruid]

I would say that those against all kinds of Judaism are anti-semitic.

wow....really.....
that is pretty much a self-fullfilling statement.
of course those that oppose all forms of judaqism are anti-semetic.
however, that in no way is relevant to this topic.
communists do no oppose judaism, any more than they oppose christianity, or islam.

again....s...l...o...w...l...y...

the vast majority of people that oppose israel and it's treatment of its neighbours, and palestinians, don't care what religion you are.
we care about israel's abominable domestic and foreign policies.
opposing injustice is not anti-semitic, but rather pro-humanity.

 

[bikerdruid]

A psychiatrists perspective on the Israel haters. The great Anthony Daniels (aka Theodore Dalrymple);



http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_2_4_03td.html

Edit: Just came across another of his articles: "The British Left Goes Anti-Semitic. Socialism and anti-Semitism are closely related worldviews."



http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_7_23_02td.html

that's it?
that is your evidence that commies hate jews?
wow....just wow...

 

[bikerdruid]

Well, Theodore Dalrymple (the pen name of Dr. Antony Daniels) has been a physician in a British poor neighborhood for about 40 years, and travelled extensively in numerous parts of the world -- especially in those "liberated" by "socialist revolutions". Your glib dismissal of his views show you know nothing about his experience or his reputation as one of the most important essayists of our time.

I, on the other hand, read a lot of his work; four or five books, in fact. But let me guess: now that it turns out that I know the person you criticized so glibly very well, my reading of him just shows I am stupid for taking such a "fool" seriously, right?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7301252&postcount=149

 

[Skeptic]

Capitalist kibbutz? Isn't that an oxymoron? If the Wiki article is accurate I would say that at least 72% of the kibbutzim no longer fit the communist model.

Let me say, as an Israeli: True, they don't. They are now no longer communist. But the idea is that it tries to keep the "spirit" of the place alive: e.g., small rural communities, more communal involvement between the members than in regular villages / towns, a communal dining room, etc., etc.

 

[Skeptic]

the vast majority of people that oppose israel and it's treatment of its neighbours, and palestinians, don't care what religion you are.

Oh, they most definitely DO care (again, I am not talking about those who criticize Israel on certain things: I am talking about those who, like you, "oppose Israel" and consider it itself illegitimate; or, as you succintly put it, showing such deep undestanding of the middle east, "zionism sucks".)

They are constantly demanding the destruction of Israel, but seem to be completely oblivious to far worse abuses by other countries. There is one -- and ONLY one -- country they demand obey their (suicidal) dictates or else they consider it illegitimate (or rather, they use those dictates as an excuse for their preconceived belief that it is illegitimate): the Jewish state.

Certainly the communists among them are like that: they celebrate, for instance, Cuba, which is a one-party dictatorship with a freedom index worse than Hamas' Gaza, as a "success story"; they are totally quiet as Assad, for instance, buthers thousands of his own citizens; yet when Israel dares to fight Hamas, or stop a planned invasion of its borders, it is "committing war crimes".

The homosexual Israel-bashers are especially odd: they create groups like "Queers for Palestine" -- that wish to destroy the country with the only "Gay Pride" parade in the entire middle east, and instead prefer to side with those who stone and kill homosexuals. So, yes, I think the fact that Israel is now the Jewish state has quite a bit to do with it. Certainly looking at the monstrous double standard shows this.

 

[bikerdruid]

Oh, they most definitely DO care (again, I am not talking about those who criticize Israel on certain things: I am talking about those who, like you, "oppose Israel" and consider it itself illegitimate; or, as you succintly put it, showing such deep undestanding of the middle east, "zionism sucks".)

They are constantly demanding the destruction of Israel, but seem to be completely oblivious to far worse abuses by other countries. There is one -- and ONLY one -- country they demand obey their (suicidal) dictates or else they consider it illegitimate (or rather, they use those dictates as an excuse for their preconceived belief that it is illegitimate): the Jewish state.

Certainly the communists among them are like that: they celebrate, for instance, Cuba, which is a one-party dictatorship with a freedom index worse than Hamas' Gaza, as a "success story"; they are totally quiet as Assad, for instance, buthers thousands of his own citizens; yet when Israel dares to fight Hamas, or stop a planned invasion of its borders, it is "committing war crimes".

The homosexual Israel-bashers are especially odd: they create groups like "Queers for Palestine" -- that wish to destroy the country with the only "Gay Pride" parade in the entire middle east, and instead prefer to side with those who stone and kill homosexuals. So, yes, I think the fact that Israel is now the Jewish state has quite a bit to do with it. Certainly looking at the monstrous double standard shows this.

so you keep saying.
are you ever going to give some hard, reasonable evidence, or do we just assume that you are just ranting?

 

[Pardalis]

so you keep saying.
are you ever going to give some hard, reasonable evidence, or do we just assume that you are just ranting?

Why is it that you only care to support Palestinians? Aren't there other peoples out there in the world that are in urgent need?

There's a Syrian refugee crisis looming for instance.

Isn't it that supporting the deadlock Palestinian cause gives you a free pass to bash Jews?

 

[WildCat]

Nothing to see here, there's no anti-semitism on the left...

Now, though, the party is facing yet another challenge. For years, the Left Party -- a partial outgrowth of the East German communists -- has been criticized for harboring anti-Semitism and being overtly critical of Israel. Just recently, Left Party floor leader Gregor Gysi pushed a resolution through the party's parliamentary faction stating: "In the future, the representatives of the Left Party faction will take action against any form of anti-Semitism in society."

The party, the resolution read, will no longer participate in boycotts of Israeli products, will refrain from demanding a single-state solution to the Middle East conflict and will not take part in this year's Gaza flotilla.

That resolution, however, did not sit well with the party's left wing. The group protested against being "muzzled," complaining that Gysi's declaration was "undemocratic" and "dangerous," as Left Party parliamentarian Annette Groth complained. And Gysi, formerly head of the party, gave in. This week, he plans to compose a further resolution on anti-Semitism.

...Several recent incidents bear witness to the problem. In April, the website of the district chapter of the Left Party in the western city of Duisburg featured a swastika entangled with a Star of David. The symbol linked to a pamphlet which called Israel a "rogue nation" and called for a boycott of Israeli products. The Duisburg Left Party chapter distanced itself from the pamphlet and claimed that the site had been illegally manipulated -- but the head of the Duisburg Left Party has long supported a boycott of Israeli products.

In May, Inge Höger, a member of the Bundestag from the western state of North Rhine-Westphalia, appeared at a Palestinians in Europe conference attended by numerous Hamas sympathizers. She was wearing a scarf printed with a map of the Middle East that did not include Israel. Höger claimed that she was handed the scarf and didn't want to be impolite.

...The recent incidents are of a kind with several similar transgressions in the past. In May 2010, three Left Party parliamentarians took part in the Gaza flotilla which sought to break the Israeli embargo on the Gaza Strip. Also that year, three parliamentarians remained seated following Israeli President Shimon Peres' address in the Bundestag. In 2009, nine Left Party parliamentarians were at a demonstration at which "death to Israel" was chanted. In 2008, 11 Left Party members of the Bundestag refused to support a resolution against anti-Semitism.

The party has frequently defended itself against criticism by saying that it should be possible to find fault with Israel without being accused of anti-Semitism. But Andrej Hermlin, a well-known pianist and Left Party member, finds the defense disingenuous. He calls it the "cowardly strategy of leftist anti-Semitism" and says the debate in recent weeks has been "repellent and nauseating."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,769487,00.html#ref=rss

At least some neo-communists realize they have a problem with anti-semitism in their ranks.

 

[Virus]

Cindy Sheehan, who's son was killed in Iraq said her son "died for Israel". Many on the far-left claimed Iraq was invaded at the behest of Israel. Palestine and Israel were prominent features at most anti-war demos even though they had nothing to do with the counter-insurgency in Iraq or Afghanistan. Then there's all this "Zionist lobby" stuff that they write.

I reckon that's pretty antisemitic. Seems to be just a rehashing of the "world Jewry" conspiracies that used to do the rounds in certain intellectual circles.

 

[Virus]

communists do no oppose judaism, any more than they oppose christianity, or islam.

Communists carried out widespread persecution of religion, including all the above three. Religion was outright banned under Enver Hoxha.

the vast majority of people that oppose israel and it's treatment of its neighbours, and palestinians, don't care what religion you are.
we care about israel's abominable domestic and foreign policies.
opposing injustice is not anti-semitic, but rather pro-humanity.

Yet you support Communism, which persecuted anything that moved.

Even if all the lies spread by the anti-Israel leftists were true, their policies would still be benign compared to all the Arab states and all Communist states.

 

[Skeptic]

Nothing to see here, there's no anti-semitism on the left...


http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,769487,00.html#ref=rss

At least some neo-communists realize they have a problem with anti-semitism in their ranks.

But but but... it's just "opposition to Israeli policies"... nothing to do with antisemitism...

 

[Skeptic]

Even if all the lies spread by the anti-Israel leftists were true, their policies would still be benign compared to all the Arab states and all Communist states.

If everything he says about Israel were true, Israel would have been -- more or less -- the ideal communist state: building a new man and an ideal society (according to the speeches of older socialist zionist leaders) at a cheap, cheap price of some genocide and expulsions. Big deal! That's the standard communist practice.

 

[Virus]

Maybe they hate Israel because it's a successful market economy, US allied and pro-West in outlook. Communists hate market economies, the US and the West. They also like underdogs and Israel kicks ass when push comes to shove.