Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Wroclaw]

put it into percentages.. are you saying 90% didnt really support the party? 50%?

The last free election held in Nazi Germany took place in March 1933, and the Nazis didn't even win a majority in that election, which was held after Hitler had become Chancellor. Assume that his popularity went up until the war started, and it might even have gone up until the invasion of Russia, given how well the war went for them to that point. Once they started losing, however, you can count on the Nazis having lost their popularity swiftly.

So figure that for some period between March 1933 and December 1941, there was probably a majority of people that supported the Nazi party. However, their support for the party came from a variety of reasons: patriotism, support for the military, anti-Semitism for some certainly, and most of all economic recovery. Germany was in terrible shape economically in January 1933, and the Nazis offered a return to full employment. That did wonders for their popularity. It tends to in any population.

You have to temper that support, however, with two things. First, you have to consider that there was also a considerable number of people in Germany who voted for center-left (SPD) or far left-wing (KPD) political parties in Germany, and they were almost as many in number as people who voted for the Nazis. People voting for those parties, particularly for the KPD, were extremely unlikely to have eventually shifted their support to the Nazis.

The other factor you have to consider is military: The officers in the Germany military were largely non-political and, in particular, they despised the SS, almost to a man. The Germany military had been dominated for decades by Prussians, who tended to come from landed gentry in northern Germany and were Protestants. Hitler was an Austrian Catholic whose father was a mid-level civil servant and Hitler had retired from the military as a lance corporal. The military, therefore, disliked him for several reasons, and they found the Nazi party to be thuggish and crude.

Listen, you are clearly out of your depth here and you should really read some history before you go making massive, sweeping generalizations.

 

[Wroclaw]

its seems that the soldiers of Nazi Germany that died during WW2 are now viewed as victims of manipulative and oppressive leaders rather than being considered self conscious individuals that died defending ideals they believed in.

Oh, Jesus H. Christ.

Do you believe every soldiers who died in Vietnam supported the war there?

Be careful before you answer. Then answer honestly. If your answer is no, then you'll need to explain why a different standard applies to Germans.

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

Germans are automatons, clearly.

 

[Tolls]

put it into percentages.. are you saying 90% didnt really support the party? 50%?

Considering the last free election in 1933 yielded less than 50% of votes for the Nazi party, and that was against of background of voter intimidation and violence by the Nazis...
The prior election in November 1932 yielded a more realistic 33%.

ETA: I see Wroclaw got there before me...

 

[dvictr]

i think that by 1939.. the "approval ratings"/ support was higher than 60%

 

[Wroclaw]

i think that by 1939.. the "approval ratings"/ support was higher than 60%

Well, clearly you have some source to cite on this point.

Right?

 

[Tolls]

Well, clearly you have some source to cite on this point.

Right?

**crickets**

 

[dvictr]

**crickets**

well the economy was booming, unemployment down, consumer confidence high, home sales up.. ipads flying off the self..

Hitler had higher approval ratings up until the invasion of Russia than Obama does now

 

[Wroclaw]

Hitler had higher approval ratings up until the invasion of Russia than Obama does now

You're aware that Obama's ratings are very low right now, aren't you?

{slaps forehead}

So, again, you have some source to cite, right?

Listen: You don't get into an historical debate without having some sources to back you up. What are you, twelve?

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

[citation needed] in perpetuity throughout the universe.

 

[dvictr]

You're aware that Obama's ratings are very low right now, aren't you?

{slaps forehead}

So, again, you have some source to cite, right?

Listen: You don't get into an historical debate without having some sources to back you up. What are you, twelve?

actually Obama's approval rating is about 50% right now
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20070207-503544.html

can you confirm that Germany went through an economic recovery during the 30s or at least improved since the 1932 election?

im saying 50-60% support/approval rating would not be at all far fetched for Hitler..

 

[Tolls]

actually Obama's approval rating is about 50% right now
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20070207-503544.html

can you confirm that Germany went through an economic recovery during the 30s or at least improved since the 1932 election?

im saying 50-60% support/approval rating would not be at all far fetched for Hitler..

So.
You're pulling figures from your posterior then?

 

[Wroclaw]

actually Obama's approval rating is about 50% right now http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20070207-503544.html

Fine. It's 50%. It's been significantly lower.

can you confirm that Germany went through an economic recovery during the 30s or at least improved since the 1932 election?

See, now this is absolute proof that you don't know what you're talking about. Any person who's read a single book on the Third Reich knows this. It's so commonly known that it's practically a given.

Why don't you do this: Get a copy of Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. For purposes of this particular question, he has a whole chapter on economics in Nazi Germany and the recovery.

im saying 50-60% support/approval rating would not be at all far fetched for Hitler..

No, it wouldn't be, but you're not taking into account several factors I've already mentioned. Again, approving of Hitler wouldn't mean being a supporter of Nazi ideology. Further, if you got a draft notice, you'd be far less likely to approve of your country's leadership.

Finally, don't forget that Germany was subjected to bombing almost immediately after the war began. That tends to cut into the approval ratings of most leaders.

But we're getting off-point. You said Wehrmacht soldiers fought because they believed in Nazi ideology. Now you say Hitler had an approval rating of only 60%.

Are you just winging this?

 

[Wroclaw]

Germans are automatons, clearly.

Vee haff vays of making you dahnse.

 

[Tolls]

See, now this is absolute proof that you don't know what you're talking about. Any person who's read a single book on the Third Reich knows this. It's so commonly known that it's practically a given.

Though that improvement hit a turning point in 1936. That's when they started to take control of the economy. Wages were constrained. All the stuff that generally gets a workforce slightly annoyed.

Oh, and disputes over pay could get you sent to a camp.

 

[Wroclaw]

Though that improvement hit a turning point in 1936. That's when they started to take control of the economy. Wages were constrained. All the stuff that generally gets a workforce slightly annoyed.

Oh, and disputes over pay could get you sent to a camp.

Well, sure, and Shirer writes that the average German worker was only making at $7 per day, which was, I think, about 18 RM. But that's a big deal when you've been begging for the four years before that.

 

[MG1962]

Though that improvement hit a turning point in 1936. That's when they started to take control of the economy. Wages were constrained. All the stuff that generally gets a workforce slightly annoyed.

Oh, and disputes over pay could get you sent to a camp.

The miracle that was the German economy through that era is a paper tiger. Before Hitler went after the Jews or even the communists he flogged the trade unions out of exisitence.

When the autobahns were constructed nearly a 1000 construction and transport businesses went bankrupt. The Nazis told them after the fact what the pay rate would be for their work. If the companies refused to continue, the government would simply confiscate their trucks and equipment. Virtually none of the manual labour got paid - they got 'told' they were donating their efforts to the glory of Germany

 

[MG1962]

Well, sure, and Shirer writes that the average German worker was only making at $7 per day, which was, I think, about 18 RM. But that's a big deal when you've been begging for the four years before that.

As much as I enjoyed Shirer, compared to other works I have read about that era of German history, he really pulled his punches. Things were way way worse than even he discussed.

 

[MG1962]

http://www.clashmusic.com/files/imagecache/big_node_view/files/images/kraftwerk.jpg

Vee haff vays of making you dahnse.

After 80 pages and 1000's of posts. I think you just wont the thread - nominated by the way

 

[Wroclaw]

After 80 pages and 1000's of posts. I think you just wont the thread - nominated by the way

While I'm flattered, I can't take the credit for that one. I assumed it was a very old joke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps6wRHFdKdA&feature=related