Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Rolfe]

I think it's likely that Knox and Sollecito will be acquitted if the present judge is unbiassed and has a brain in his head. At which point it will be interesting to see the reactions.

Unfortunately Megrahi was pressurised to abandon his ongoing appeal in order to be allowed to return home, at a time when he'd been told he wouldn't live to see the appeal concluded anyway. Now that really is a conspiracy theory. But it means you lot have a much better chance than I have of seeing genuine light shine into the murkiness you have been examining.

Rolfe.

 

[platonov]

No, No - not on this thread

If the Rudy as a police informant story has any legs at all, my guess is we will see it before Monday.

Someone mentioned conspiracy theories earlier

No, No - not on this thread. Perish the thought.

I listed some of the 'conspirators' in this post.

Nobody apart from AK & RS (and were not sure about them !) aren't in on the conspiracy/lied according to the many theories put forward here.

As it happens the first cop on the scene Battistelli [1 of 2 postal police] was recently accused of planting the famous lamp in MK's room. And it goes on from there.

ps He and his colleague also lied about when they arrived at the cottage (logs were apparently altered) and the glass and what AK said etc etc but technically those lies came later.

 

[RoseMontague]

Someone mentioned conspiracy theories earlier

No, No - not on this thread. Perish the thought.

I listed some of the 'conspirators' in this post.

Nobody apart from AK & RS (and were not sure about them !) aren't in on the conspiracy/lied according to the many theories put forward here.

As it happens the first cop on the scene Battistelli [1 of 2 postal police] was recently accused of planting the famous lamp in MK's room. And it goes on from there.

So as evidence of other posters thinking it is some vast conspiracy you link to your own post where you list who you think is involved in a conspiracy?

I don't see in that other post anything about planting the infamous lamp?

 

[Rolfe]

It seems to me a lot of long term JREF members take a negative view of those of us that participate on this thread and in particular those that argue from innocence. Is there another reason for this other than what you have indicated?

Did you notice this?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212165

Says it all really. It's just trolling, although I don't claim to know why, or why so persistently single-minded though.

We have to remember that trolling is not against the MA.

Rolfe.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

It seems to me a lot of long term JREF members take a negative view of those of us that participate on this thread and in particular those that argue from innocence. Is there another reason for this other than what you have indicated?

As Rolfe said, to some extent it's just a self-serving meme put about by some of the long-term JREF crowd who ended up on the wrong side of the facts once they had shaken out. To some extent it's mates of that crowd playing along with it.

To some extent there's also an issue with territorialism amongst the kittens and recipes community. They feel they own the place, and inevitably a few people of that persuasion seep into the mod community since they're spending so much time here anyway. I think some of them feel an urge to assert that they have higher status than single-issue posters with no interest in kittens, recipes, incestuous awards threads and so on.

Lastly this thread was in the past a lot of work for the mods, some of whom were either guilters themselves or just plain had no idea whatsoever what was going on in the thread. Some of them got resentful about that, or in one particular case resorted to outright breaching the system to try to shut the thread down.

Outside those relatively small groups of malcontents I don't think the vast bulk of JREF posters care either way.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't see in that other post anything about planting the infamous lamp?

Platonov has an inexplicable habit of linking to posts by number in thread. I don't even know how he does this, as the standard "link to this post" links to the post's unique number which doesn't change. With his method, every time a post is removed and sent to AAH, his link will change. If he doesn't update links he saves, they'll be wrong.

His method also has the disadvantage of displaying the post as a single post without context. If you want context, you have to follow another link.

It's pointless and perverse, and I just ignore these links. If he wants me to read a post he links to, he can use the standard "link to this post" facility.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

As Rolfe said, to some extent it's just a self-serving meme put about by some of the long-term JREF crowd who ended up on the wrong side of the facts once they had shaken out. To some extent it's mates of that crowd playing along with it.

Except, it's been going on a lot longer than this thread, or its progenitors as far as I can tell.

Maybe I need to start that thread about Michael Stone. I feel a strange, masochistic desire to be abused by the usual suspects, who will pile in before they even figure out what he is alleged to have done.

However, back to the topic. Has anyone who still believes Knox and Sollecito killed Meredith yet explained what time they think she died at, and how they arrive at that conclusion?

If they did, I missed it.

Rolfe.

 

[lionking]

I'm sick of being misrepresented. I didn't come up with the idea of a conspiracy. People here who insist on deliberate misconduct by police and forensic scientists are the ones who are proposing a conspiracy of silence (at least), whether they like it or not. Some have been honest enough to say that two dozen would be involved in this conspiracy. I don't buy it, sorry.

 

[platonov]

So as evidence of other posters thinking it is some vast conspiracy you link to your own post where you list who you think is involved in a conspiracy?

I don't see in that other post anything about planting the infamous lamp?

Hey what happened the police informant/agent

That list is based on the many theories put forward on his thread.
Do you deny that ???

If I don't post all the links (about 500/5000) it never happened and if I do it will be ignored as your own 'police informant' was.

As to the lamp planting you were involved in that exchange.
Click on the top RHC of the post to get to thread where this nonsense went on for a couple of pages.

And you wonder why JREF'ers might have a dim view of this thread. Your response is a perfect example of why.

 

[Rolfe]

I'm sick of being misrepresented. I didn't come up with the idea of a conspiracy. People here who insist on deliberate misconduct by police and forensic scientists are the ones who are proposing a conspiracy of silence (at least), whether they like it or not. Some have been honest enough to say that two dozen would be involved in this conspiracy. I don't buy it, sorry.

Well, you need to find some people who think there was a conspiracy, and challenge them on it. Most of these miscarriages of justice, and this one is pretty boilerplate in that respect, are about confirmation bias and group-think.

On the contrary, I think you are doing the misrepresenting. You seem to be implying that everyone who inclines to the belief that Knox and Sollecito had nothing to do with the murder believe in some deliberate, conscious, grand conspiracy. That is simply not true.

What time do you think Meredith died, and how did you arrive at that conclusion?

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Click on the top RHC of the post to get to thread where this nonsense went on for a couple of pages.

Why don't you learn to link to posts properly?

Hint. There is a handy little button, right next to the "Quote" button.

Rolfe.

 

[platonov]

Give em' enough rope

Why don't you learn to link to posts properly?

Hint. There is a handy little button, right next to the "Quote" button.

Rolfe.

I know that (some posters prefer single post links) but given that the poster who responded was involved in the exchange its a moot point - but very instructive on a larger level.

This and your earlier disinclination to do the same, along with claims that you couldn't see my posts when I provided links deals with (in a timely fashion) the recent 'argument' about not answering questions quite nicely.

ps Also, it gives CT's an excuse to avoid the point being made

 

[RoseMontague]

Hey what happened the police informant/agent

That list is based on the many theories put forward on his thread.
Do you deny that ???

If I don't post all the links (about 500/5000) it never happened and if I do it will be ignored as your own 'police informant' was.

As to the lamp planting you were involved in that exchange.
Click on the top RHC of the post to get to thread where this nonsense went on for a couple of pages.

And you wonder why JREF'ers might have a dim view of this thread. Your response is a perfect example of why.

I could care less what you think of me or my posts, platonov. Your post makes no sense and quite frankly I no longer have any desire to try and figure them out.

 

[platonov]

I could care less what you think of me or my posts, platonov. Your post makes no sense and quite frankly I no longer have any desire to try and figure them out.

Ahh, the old incomprehension argument.

This ..........

Hey what happened the police informant/agent !

That list is based on the many theories put forward on his thread.
Do you deny that ???

............is obviously too abstruse and longwinded for any english speaker/reader to follow.

Again the fault is obviously mine but the comment on why JREF'ers have a dim view of this thread stands.

@ Rolfe - Could you make sense of the quoted section ?
Whether you accept the argument / Q or not is not the issue.

 

[Danceme]

I'm sick of being misrepresented. I didn't come up with the idea of a conspiracy. People here who insist on deliberate misconduct by police and forensic scientists are the ones who are proposing a conspiracy of silence (at least), whether they like it or not. Some have been honest enough to say that two dozen would be involved in this conspiracy. I don't buy it, sorry.

Yes, I agree. We have heard a gazillion times that police are scared for their jobs so support Mignini's theory, forensic scientists (from Rome even) are scared for their job so support Mignini, judges won't dare go against their fellow colleagues so support Mignini, and so on, and so on. This may not be exactly defined as a conspiracy theory but it's something resembling one.

 

[platonov]

Yes, I agree. We have heard a gazillion times that police are scared for their jobs so support Mignini's theory, forensic scientists (from Rome even) are scared for their job so support Mignini, judges won't dare go against their fellow colleagues so support Mignini, and so on, and so on. This may not be exactly defined as a conspiracy theory but it's something resembling one.

Not quite that simple Danceme (or maybe it is ?)

Everyone listed in the post of mine I linked to above [bar AK & RS and their defence teams obviously ? ] has been accused of lying or being in on the conspiracy (and not just once - over and over again)

Note Rose Montague didn't deny it.

 

[Mary_H]

Wow. That's a really nice first post. Now that you have set the level of expectation it is imperative that you do even better next time.

I agree. Thank you for your analysis, Kid Le.

 

[Mary_H]

I have been thinking about this concept and I plan to develop this some more for my upcoming GroundHog Day post. I appreciate your input on this subject.

Why wait, Rose? The 4th of July is right around the corner.

 

[Paninaro]

The Skype call

R. In the newspaper they’re writing that I was drunk and slept on the toilet. That’s crap. In that house we were smoking joints, we smoked and so did those girls, everyone did. After that I said to the guys, who are men of their word, "Listen, guys, I'm tired, I can't walk now, can I sleep over here?" So I slept on their sofa. I was only ever at their place twice.

After that, after that I met Amanda, but I didn’t talk to her any more, I just saw her one other time, at that pub with Lumamba whatever his name was –

G. Right, Lumumba –

R. – just one other time, and we talked in that pub, but after that I didn’t see her any more, I mean I'd see her in the street, but just to say “hi”.

R. The girl who was killed, I knew her. The evening before, we talked.... well, I got to know her during a rugby match.

G. Wait - the girl you’re talking about, the one you knew, who was that? This Meredith?

R. Yes, Meredith. I’m talking about her now.

G. You knew her? [talking over each other]

R. Yes. I don’t mean that we hung out together. Up to then, we just saw each other a couple of times, mainly that evening where there was the rugby match between England and South Africa, I was together with a couple of friends at this place, now I can’t remember the name…

G. Wait, I don’t get it, you saw her with her? I didn’t get it.

R. I'm telling you how I met her.

G. Oh, okay.

R. I met her in that place...

G. pub?

R. That Irish pub in the center near the Kurdish place, what’s it called?

G. Oh, the Shamrock?

R. The Shamrock. That’s where they were showing the England-South Africa match, and I was there with a couple of friends, and she was there too.

G. Oh yes?

R. She was there too and we were teasing each other, bantering.

G. Uh-huh.

R. So then...

G. So you were actually trying to…

R. No, because I already knew her, it isn't that...

R. Oh, right, right.

R. So on Halloween, I went out with the Spanish girls, these two girls who live upstairs, two Spanish girls who live upstairs from me, and on Halloween I spent some time with them. Then we went over to some friends of theirs, together, friends of these girls, and then we went to the house of some other Spanish kids, and that’s where I really talked with…

G. This was on Halloween?

R. With Meredith.

G. Right.

R. During that party.

G. Where?

R. She was disguised as a vampire. You probably saw the pictures.

G. Yep. In the newspapers.

R. Well, the next day, we had an appointment to see each other again.

G. I see.

R. I don’t know if you get me. The next day…

G. Yes.

R. Umm, she was there. And I was there. So we're seeing each other…

R. So we went in, and I think it was about eight-thirty, or eight-twenty, they're saying that she told her friends she was tired and wanted to go home. But in fact no, we were supposed to see each other, we had made an appointment the evening before during the Halloween party, at the Spanish kids' house, and I can also say, well I don't know the street but I can say where it was.

G. What street was it?

R. If I were in Perugia I could say where that house is, and anyway those kids can confirm that I was at that party.

G. Okay.

R. And then, we saw each other at Meredith's house and we started talking...we started talking, and I, well, I tried, I mean I tried and she was willing. But in the end we didn't do anything because...she didn't have any condoms and neither did I.

G. Like...in the newspapers it says that...well, you did something if...

R. Yes but in fact, I'm just telling you we did...oral stuff. No, no penetration, because I didn't have a condom, we didn't do anything. And so it's all crap according to me that they said they found my...sperm...male sperm. Then I, that... it's not mine because we didn't do anything.

R. When we got there, I don't know what happened, but she said "damn" - the money's gone!

G. - something about money you were saying?

R. The money is gone, she said, when's Amanda coming back - I have to talk to her. Because they had quarrelled in the evening, because of problems that...Amanda smokes, she smokes...a lot and they quarrelled.

G. So you think that, like, she took her money for...

R. - no, wait, let me get there, after...

G. - sorry -

R. Let me get you to understand better, well, it's been said...well, okay, so something that hasn't come out yet, it hasn't come out that...Amanda hasn't talked about umm...money, Raffaele hasn't talked about the money. So only I know this, that she told me her money was missing, that was hidden in the drawer where she kept her underwear.

G. I see.

R. She told me this. And after that I went to the bathroom. I really had to go take a ****. And I heard the doorbell. For me, that must have been one of the girls who lived with her. So, I was calmly in the bathroom, like that. And at a certain point -

G. - So you thought it was someone from upstairs?

R. Yes, no, I thought that, well clearly someone rang the doorbell, they rang and she went and opened it -

G. Okay

R. so for me it was...it could have been anyone for me, see?

G. Sure, sure.

R. It could have been Amanda, it could have been... anyone.

G. So you were calmly taking a ****, I get it.

R. I was in the bathroom, so for me, well, I didn't worry about it, because anyway in the end we were going to be seeing each other and...

R. I was in the bathroom, in the bathroom maybe five minutes. So, I really had to take this ****, but then I heard a scream, but let me tell you, a really loud scream, so loud that according to me, if anyone was passing by, nearby, they would have heard this scream, because she screamed so loud...and then, then, I got a bit worried and I got out of the bathroom right away, without even putting my pants back on, they were practically falling down, I was wearing just my underwear and my pants were falling around my...

G. But if I understand, I mean like where was this...I mean, what time do you think this happened, I don't know...

R. Around nine, nine twenty or so, because in the meantime we had gotten to talking about all that stuff.

G. I see.

R. I think nine-twenty, nine-thirty, around then, and then, when I heard the scream, let me tell you she screamed so loud that you could hear it even in the street, Giacomo, she screamed really loud. When I came out, it was in semi-darkness, I came out and I saw him -

G. But who?

R. His back was turned, and I said to myself what the hell is going on?

G. Masked? What the hell was this guy like?

R. Well, firstly this person wasn't bigger than me, I mean taller, physically, in height, he wasn't taller than me. His back was turned, and I saw there...Meredith...I saw Meredith who was bleeding already, she had a slash in her throat, and this guy took a knife and I've got wounds on my hands because I grabbed his hand, he tried to stab me and I still have the wounds on my hands, the signs, that are healing now, but I still have them on my hand...

R. ...I was trying to help her, Giacomo, it's not that...my blood, no, I don't know if there is any or not, because I didn't bleed, I didn't actually bleed, my wounds that I had, the guy just wounded me lightly, it didn't bleed, now I can't tell you...

G. OK, but anyway, I mean, the point is that in my opinion you should [missing word] them, maybe if you have to find some...

R. I tried to help her, and if my prints are in the house, it's obviously because I touched everything, Giacomo.

G. Sure, I believe it if you were there, but listen, this guy, you can't manage to say anything about what the hell he was like? That could be important.

R. Yes but that guy, well, it was almost dark, I didn't see his face, but I say he was Italian because he, we...we insulted each other. I insulted him. And he insulted me and he didn't have a foreign accent, and he wasn't any taller than me, I don't know how tall this Stefano or whoever is, but he certainly wasn't taller than me.

G. So was he, like, blond? What the hell was he like, didn't you manage to see anything?

R. I can't tell you, I think...brown-haired, more brown, not blond because, well you can really see when someone is blond...

G. All right, so not exactly blond, hell do I know, say chestnut?

R. Yes, brown, like brown between...between blond and brown.

G. It's called chestnut.

R. But not light.

G. It's called chestnut, but...

R. In the room it was dark, it was intimate, it was dark.

G. I get it.

R. And it was like my pants were falling down, because I hurried out of the bathroom, I hurried out of the bathroom, so I fell on the ground, and then the guy ran away, he escaped, he went out the door, see? And then I got up, and I tried to help, to staunch the wounds, I took a towel in the bathroom, I tried to...to...

G. Staunch the wound?

R. ...to put it into the wound, see, I was trying, and she was clinging to me hard, very hard. So before anything, I know...it's not that I ran away, but I was scared, I don't know why I didn't call the ambulance, it's because...I was alone there right then, alone, and it was a huge mess of blood, and I was scared that they would blame only me.

R. Listen, Meredith's clothes got put in the washing machine. When the police came to the house it was still full, the girl's clothes were soaked, so if that really did happen, Amanda or Raffaele did it. That must have been them, if it really happened.

G. Why would they have done that?

R. Because when I left she was dressed, see?

G. Meredith? The girl who died?

R. But Meredith was dressed.

G. So they killed her dressed?

R. Yes, but it says here that they were washed in the washing machine, but it's not true, she was dressed, she had a pair of jeans on and a white shirt and a woollen thing. She was dressed.

G. All right, and that...

R. It's obvious that they washed them, Giacomo. I went out, and he'll have gone out of the house, and...

G. But what the hell did Amanda go wash the clothes for?

R. How the hell do I know?

G. But if she's not involved, sorry - I'm reasoning like you would, if I were...

R. Yes but then, after, though, from what I've read, someone else came, because when I left, the window wasn't broken, Giacomo, the window of the house, that window out front, it wasn't broken.

G. And you think it's important about the window and the money that wasn't there
any more?

R. Sure, it means someone broke it, and I wasn't there.

In my opinion, the way Rudy Guede lies is classic. He knows the police will find out he was at the scene of the crime. So he pulls out the oldest excuse in the book: I was there, but it was not me, it was a stranger I've never seen before /I didn't get a good look at. Every criminals last line of defence. The unknown man, totally made up, doing exactly what we can suppose Rudy Guede did in real life.

He mentions the things he know the police will blame him for. The missing money (someone else stole them; maybe Amanda), the broken window (wasn't me, wasn't there), the scream (that he heard from the bathroom), the wounds on his hands (from when he confronted the unknown intruder) and so on and so forth.

Guede broke the window, stole the money, got the wounds while Meredith was fighting back, no-one else was there, he heard the scream from a very close range because Meredith screamed when he attacked her and subsequently killed her, probably panicking.

Notice how this unknown man makes his return in his story to Alessi.

 

[Amazer]

It seems to me a lot of long term JREF members take a negative view of those of us that participate on this thread and in particular those that argue from innocence. Is there another reason for this other than what you have indicated?

Personally I'd say the negative view (of those who hold AK and RS innocent) was a result of the inability to properly refute the then available evidence in the very first thread and the apparent willingness to embrace any and all (strange) theories as long as it supported innocence.

Take for example the title of the original thread. Clearly AK wasn't judged guilty just because of a cartwheel but this idea was rigorously defended by a couple of posters.