• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged nuclear power safe?

Consider this an official moderator directive to end the bickering and personal attacks. Any further such posts will be actioned. No one reads the JREF to watch the Mod Team dramatically suspend their favorite posters; please don't put us in the position of having to do so. Thanks for your anticipated cooperation.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jhunter1163
 
Thanks for the citation. We can now safely celebrate the piles of rubble and radioactive wreckage at Fukushima as representing the reliability and safety of nuclear power industry!
images

Yes. That's exactly (the opposite of) what he said.
 
Last edited:
[qimg]http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSD00Xz10VhJLOJossUH2WapC92AGwRPPDHNInhFonUdgWX6PA23Q[/qimg]
Yes. That's exactly (the opposite of) what he said.


No, it's not:

Fukushima Two, currently safely sitting in a cold shutdown state and could probably be brought back on line with minimal repairs, is proof that the "lessons of Fukushima" were already learned and applied more than thirty years ago.
 
I said that Fukushima Two was "safely sitting in a cold shutdown state" and could be "brought back on line with minimal repairs". You said "piles of rubble and radioactive wreckage".

Yes, that is the exact opposite of what I said.
 
Haven't we been through the excellent safety record of nuclear reactors, and compared it to other "accident-free" alternatives like hydro, only a few pages back?
 
Haven't we been through the excellent safety record of nuclear reactors, and compared it to other "accident-free" alternatives like hydro, only a few pages back?

Haven't we already established that comparing nuclear to other power sources is a red herring when it comes to ascertaining nuclear power's safety?


~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Molten nuclear fuel in three reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant is likely to have burned through pressure vessels, not just the cores, Japan has said in a report in which it also acknowledges it was unprepared for an accident of the severity of Fukushima.

It is the first time Japanese authorities have admitted the possibility that the fuel suffered "melt-through" – a more serious scenario than a core meltdown.

The report, which is to be submitted to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), said fuel rods in reactors No 1, 2 and 3 had probably not only melted, but also breached their inner containment vessels and accumulated in the outer steel containment vessels.
"


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/08/fukushima-nuclear-plant-melt-through?intcmp=239
 
Haven't we already established that comparing nuclear to other power sources is a red herring when it comes to ascertaining nuclear power's safety?

No, we have not.

Coal dumps thousands of tons of radioactive waste that lasts for millions of years into the air and water each year. Nuclear energy does not.

Coal causes or contributes 30,000 deaths in the US each year. No deaths due to causes unique to nuclear energy have occurred in the US since 1960.
 
Haven't we already established that comparing nuclear to other power sources is a red herring when it comes to ascertaining nuclear power's safety?
Well, obviously if safety is really your reason to oppose nuclear power, then you'll also want to avoid other energy sources that have led to far more casualties than nuclear ever will.

Nuclear has had only two serious accidents in 50 years -- Chernobyl and Fukushima. One was caused by poor design, poor maintenance and horrific neglect, the other by a 1000-years earthquake. Neither caused much in the way of casualties.

Not that it matters anyhow. Tank trucks carrying gasoline cause fatalities and fires constantly, yet no one seem to be the least bit afraid of them. Dams break and kill hundreds of thousands of people, but I don't hear anyone saying we should phase out hydroelectic power.

It's xenophobia. Wouldn't matter if nuclear really was 100% safe and clean, people would still get out on the streets and protest. Look at how many people get their panties in a twist over "deadly radiation" from cell phone towers which practically emit no radiation whatsoever.
 
Haven't we already established that comparing nuclear to other power sources is a red herring when it comes to ascertaining nuclear power's safety?


~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Molten nuclear fuel in three reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant is likely to have burned through pressure vessels, not just the cores, Japan has said in a report in which it also acknowledges it was unprepared for an accident of the severity of Fukushima.

It is the first time Japanese authorities have admitted the possibility that the fuel
suffered "melt-through" – a more serious scenario than a core meltdown.
The report, which is to be submitted to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), said fuel rods in reactors No 1, 2 and 3 had probably not only melted, but also breached their inner containment vessels and accumulated in the outer steel containment vessels.
"


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/08/fukushima-nuclear-plant-melt-through?intcmp=239

More serious still does not mean dangerous. Notice that they specifically state the the outer containment vessel has not been breached. Just as designed.
 
Long story short it's an acceptable risk. Accidents are going to happen, people are going to die, the land and air will be poisoned, absolutely. That's the price of doing business and that's nothing new.

Exactly. As has been said many times already, it's pointless to demand that nuclear power, or anything else, must be absolutely 100% safe, because that's simply never going to happen. There's always going to be risk, some that can be foreseen and mitigated to some extent, some that we won't even think of until it happens, and some that we wouldn't be able to do anything about anyway.

What's important, as with pretty much all aspects of life, is the risk/benefit analysis. I think part of the problem with this is that most people don't seem to realise they actually do that all the time. Every time you cross the road, you're weighing up the benefit of being on the other side with the risk of getting run over. It's no different when it comes to electricity, just a different scale.

Of course, another part of the problem is that people are absolutely terrible at actually assessing risks and probabilities. Which is particularly relevant for nuclear power since a large part of the controversy over it is due to the irrational fear many people seem to have of anything involving the words "nuclear" or "radiation".

In the end, all you can do is point to the facts. Nuclear power - in 50 years less than 100 dead, and a few thousand projected deaths at most, some economic cost, virtually no environmental cost (the Chernobyl area has actually been claimed to be healthier due to the lack of humans, although those claims have been disputed). Coal power - tens of thousands directly dead, far more by indirect routes, massive environmental cost including such fun as smog, acid rain, and deadly clouds visible from space. Note that I don't even need to mention global warming, coal power would still suck even if global warming could be conclusively proven not to exist.
 
Slight correction, there are 3 dead at Fukushima. None of which were from radiation poisoning.

There were 60 dead at Chernobyl. Some 4000 to 6000 developed thyroid cancer, however thyroid cancer has a 98% cure rate.

Oh, and Three Mile Island is still producing cheap, clean, carbon free nuclear power to the residents of Harrisburg Pennsylvania and is due for liscense renewal in 2034.

To be a bit more precise on Chernobyl: there were 59 deaths at Chernobyl directly linked to radiation and accidents: 2 from explosion, 1 heart attack, 28 firemen and plant personnel [31 in 1986, 19 more through 2004]. The remaining were thyroid cancer deaths, and 3 from the helicoptor accident. There were an estimated 4000 thyroid cancers related to the leak above the normal background load; as SoT says, it was 98+% curable (the deaths from thyroid cancer are part of the 59 known). There has been no detectable "bump" of hard or soft tissue cancers detectable above normal loads. There are estimates ranging from 4000 [Chernobyl Forum] to 250,000 [Greenpeace, natch] deaths which occurred, unregistered, during the chaos of the disaster, but no one has any documentation on any of these; they are guesses, pure and simple.

Most of these numbers are from the Chernobyl Forum, a consortium of agencies from the UN, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, the US and other interested parties.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/chernobyl/health_impacts.html
 
Yes. As has been pointed out by others, there is a limited understanding on the effects of low levels of radiation on the population (and those weren't particularily high levels of exposure), so those indeed are guesses, and even the 10,000 figures I've seen are maximising the number of deaths. Greenpeace's numbers are, of course, ludicrous.
 
The Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission has released its 2010 review of the Canadian Nuclear Power industry. Canadas nuclear power plants have all met or exceeded CNSC safety standards.


As a result of the assessment of inspection findings and desktop reviews, and reviews of
events and performance indicators, CNSC staff concludes that the licensed NPPs in
Canada operated safely during 2010. This conclusion is based on the observations that:

• There were no serious process failures at any NPP.
• No members of the public received a radiation dose in excess of the regulatory
limits.
• No workers were confirmed to receive a radiation dose in excess of the regulatory
limits.
• The severity of injuries to workers was minimal.
• All environmental emissions from the stations were below regulatory limits.
• Licensees complied with their licence conditions concerning Canada’s
international obligations for the peaceful use of nuclear energy
.​

Nuclear power is safe in the great white north. How about the rest of you guys?
 
http://bit.ly/jaWPJP

An old video from right after the first explosion. What the scientist says in the short interview is pertinent.

First, he is a scientist, but he's not the right kind of scientist. There's no recorfd that I could find of him having earned a degree in nuclear engineering. There's no record of him working at any nuclear power facility or assisting in the design of reactors or reactor support systems.

Second, what he says in the interview is not pertinent. As you said, the video is old. The worst case scenario he was hoping for did not occur, therefore such speculation is not relevant. It does not help us deal with the situation now.
 

Back
Top Bottom