Materialism (championed by Darwinists) makes reason Impossible.

[Malerin]

believe it or not, I bet if you tweak a part of the brain, you can make someone love their couch more than their family. Love doesn't actually measure value at all, since love is a particular summation of efforts within the brain. If you could feasibly manipulate these efforts you could make someone love a couch, or a doorknob provided you knew how.

Your family and children get the benefit of particular chemicals flowing through the brain to stimulate the response of love (oxytocin)

There's no actual in-between here Malerin, though it seems you're willing to construct one (for the life of me I cannot imagine why)

You love people because your brain, through the process of evolution and through biochemistry, is able to make you feel love. Again, all in the brain, no need to consider something else.

EDIT:



Not so much brain damage, just a stimulus honed by association to give you a feeling of resentment. All in the brain though. I really hope you're not actually avoiding the many finding of neuroscience...

Oh, but it has to be brain damage. If you = brain then what damages your brain damages you, and vice-versa. Libel and slander clearly damage a person, so libel and slander must also damage a person's brain.

So what's the physical explanation behind how libel and slander result in brain damage?

You're false trichotomy (if you will) is only a product of your lack of understanding, willingly or otherwise.

So then you know how consciousness arises from neurons? How, exactly, does it happen? How many neurons does it take? What else can it arise from? What makes neurons special?

 

[yy2bggggs]

Oh, but it has to be brain damage. If you = brain then what damages your brain damages you, and vice-versa. Libel and slander clearly damage a person, so libel and slander must also damage a person's brain.

So what's the physical explanation behind how libel and slander result in brain damage?

This is a blatant equivocation.

If you really need this to be explained to you though, consider that adware doesn't damage your computer.

 

[Lowpro]

Oh, but it has to be brain damage. If you = brain then what damages your brain damages you, and vice-versa. Libel and slander clearly damage a person, so libel and slander must also damage a person's brain.

So what's the physical explanation behind how libel and slander result in brain damage?



So then you know how consciousness arises from neurons? How, exactly, does it happen? How many neurons does it take? What else can it arise from? What makes neurons special?

The first bolding is a completely stupid and beneath you unless you have a particular logic that you're not letting in on here -.- Libel and slander don't damage anyone (sticks and stones and all that) but it definitely makes someone feel bad. And guess what, through the miracle of fMRI there are MANY studies on where exactly the feelings of jealousy and anguish are localized in the brain

This is very telling because (1) it means it's actually IN the brain and (2) it means our brains develop similarly; these areas of emotion are localized in the same area through most all of humans and this is because of evolution.

To address your second post: Neurons are special in that they use electricity produced via concentration gradients to and transmit this voltage down an axon into a terminal. This "signal" actually stimulates a neurotransmitter response, and those NeuroT's actually cross a synapse to stimulate another neuron, which replicates the procedure. The neurotransmitters vary, each causing different effects depending on which area of the brain they are used (and indeed different areas of your body)

THAT'S why they're so special, they do this and other cells don't. How does consciousness arise? Well a page back or so I had to actually ask what particular definition of consciousness we are using. Sadly many people have "youtube" degrees in psychology; aka they don't know wtf they're talking about (and I have to believe you fit in here Malerin)

If you actually want to know more about the question you're asking, I suggest "The Quest for Consciousness: A Neurobiological Approach" by Christoph Koch (I had linked it earlier)

I'm sure you've already read this since you're SO educated to the study of neuroscience and consciousness -.-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_correlates_of_consciousness

 

[Malerin]

This is a blatant equivocation.

If you really need this to be explained to you though, consider that adware doesn't damage your computer.

What does adware damage?

 

[yy2bggggs]

What does adware damage?

Your computer, in the same sense that libel damages the person.

But your physical computer won't emit blue smoke if laden with adware.

 

[Malerin]

The first bolding is a completely stupid and beneath you unless you have a particular logic that you're not letting in on here -.- Libel and slander don't damage anyone (sticks and stones and all that) but it definitely makes someone feel bad. And guess what, through the miracle of fMRI there are MANY studies on where exactly the feelings of jealousy and anguish are localized in the brain

This is very telling because (1) it means it's actually IN the brain and (2) it means our brains develop similarly; these areas of emotion are localized in the same area through most all of humans and this is because of evolution.

To address your second post: Neurons are special in that they use electricity produced via concentration gradients to and transmit this voltage down an axon into a terminal. This "signal" actually stimulates a neurotransmitter response, and those NeuroT's actually cross a synapse to stimulate another neuron, which replicates the procedure. The neurotransmitters vary, each causing different effects depending on which area of the brain they are used (and indeed different areas of your body)

THAT'S why they're so special, they do this and other cells don't. How does consciousness arise? Well a page back or so I had to actually ask what particular definition of consciousness we are using. Sadly many people have "youtube" degrees in psychology; aka they don't know wtf they're talking about (and I have to believe you fit in here Malerin)

If you actually want to know more about the question you're asking, I suggest "The Quest for Consciousness: A Neurobiological Approach" by Christoph Koch (I had linked it earlier)

I'm sure you've already read this since you're SO educated to the study of neuroscience and consciousness -.-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_correlates_of_consciousness

Wow.

 

[Malerin]

What does adware damage?

Your computer, in the same sense that libel damages the person.

But your physical computer won't emit blue smoke if laden with adware.

What is Adware?

There are two basic kinds of adware…harmless and malicious. The harmless variety is called adware. The malicious variety is called spyware. The terms adware and spyware tend to be used interchangeably. However, they are not the same thing. Adware is usually a marketing tool. Spyware’s primary intent is getting your personal information such as passwords, credit card and bank account numbers, street and email addresses.
http://www.pcpowerguide.com/pc-security/adware/how-to-stop-and-remove-adware/

Try a different analogy.

 

[Dancing David]

Oh, but it has to be brain damage. If you = brain then what damages your brain damages you, and vice-versa. Libel and slander clearly damage a person, so libel and slander must also damage a person's brain.

So what's the physical explanation behind how libel and slander result in brain damage?

Fallacy of construction, physical damage causes pain. Slandera nd libel will have various responses.

Take a more concrete example with a less ambiguous response, grief at the loss of a loved one.

Would happiness mean that a person has something extra in their brain?

No , it is a representational interpretation of sensations, memories and conditioning. Is there a little place where flowers grow in the brain, when you are happy. No.

When we feel grief, there is no brain damage, taht is foolish and a fallacy of construction.

The brain creates representations of reality called perception, does watching someone get shot create a visual perception, yes. Does watching someone get shot create emotions, yes.

But it is all representational and mostly learned.

So where is it that Joobz exactly said what you claim he said.

the brain does not experience damage when you cut off your arm, it creates brain in response to the nervous sensations, duh.

So then you know how consciousness arises from neurons? How, exactly, does it happen? How many neurons does it take? What else can it arise from? What makes neurons special?

Where the hell is their consciousness without neurons, anywhere or just more foofery on your part.

Any, any evidence, none that you have ever presented.

 

[Dancing David]

What does adware damage?

Not much, it creates spurious transmissions of information to another source and then brings back stuff.

Unlike malware which does alter the system files and boot sequence. Especially the TDSS/Alureon variety, creates spurious redirects of searches, and changes the boot set up to load a bad driver version.

Adware doesn't usually alter the system files, it may hack a registry entry or two.

 

[John Jones]

That's why I prefaced it with



Maybe I'm misinterpreting what he's saying, but it sure sounds like he's saying the only thing that matters in his valuation of his family is that they are "simply matter".

How do you interpret it?

Quote him and I'll let you know.

 

[Malerin]

Quote him and I'll let you know.

I did.

 

[yy2bggggs]

What is Adware?

There are two basic kinds of adware…harmless and malicious. The harmless variety is called adware. The malicious variety is called spyware. The terms adware and spyware tend to be used interchangeably. However, they are not the same thing. Adware is usually a marketing tool. Spyware’s primary intent is getting your personal information such as passwords, credit card and bank account numbers, street and email addresses.
http://www.pcpowerguide.com/pc-security/adware/how-to-stop-and-remove-adware/

Oh my. Okay, I'll play that game.

WHAT ADWARE DOES?
- Continuously serves commercial advertisements and displays pop-ups.
- Installs advertising toolbars, additional adware programs or undesirable third-party software.
- Creates numerous links to advertising resources, places desktop shortcuts to marketing sites, adds bookmarks to the web browser’s Favorites list.
- Tracks user’s web browsing habits, gathers information about user’s interests, records addresses of visited web sites, logs taken actions and sends some or all collected data to a remote server.
- Degrades overall system performance. Some adware parasites are badly programmed, they waste too much computer resources and cause software instability.
- Updates itself via the Internet and often does not provide the complete uninstall feature.​

Source:
http://www.2-spyware.com/adware-removal

Now here is libel:

libel 1) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others.​

Source:
http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1153

Compare litigable damage to a person such as reduced income potential to damage to a computer such as reduced ability to perform a task.

Try a different analogy.

No. It's already beyond bizarre that you're trying to suggest that a materialist should expect libel to cause brain damage. I suspect that you know this, since your motivation is to try to show how silly materialism is.

So I'm not particularly motivated to work the analogy until you say you're happy with it.

The materialist should expect that a person who is libeled might have something akin to reduced income potential, to be worked out in a court of law. There's no reason to expect that people with more money have healthier brains, or people with less money have brain damage, even in a materialistic point of view.

 

[Lowpro]

...You're all crazy. Malerin for suggesting that materialism = verbal abuse doing physical damage and everyone else for playing wordgames and false analogies with adware.

You're all nuts -.- stick to the actual distinction made for consciousness on a purely neurological basis please. This has become as embarrassing as DOC.

 

[Malerin]

Oh my. Okay, I'll play that game.

WHAT ADWARE DOES?
- Continuously serves commercial advertisements and displays pop-ups.
- Installs advertising toolbars, additional adware programs or undesirable third-party software.
- Creates numerous links to advertising resources, places desktop shortcuts to marketing sites, adds bookmarks to the web browser’s Favorites list.
- Tracks user’s web browsing habits, gathers information about user’s interests, records addresses of visited web sites, logs taken actions and sends some or all collected data to a remote server.
- Degrades overall system performance. Some adware parasites are badly programmed, they waste too much computer resources and cause software instability.
- Updates itself via the Internet and often does not provide the complete uninstall feature.​

Source:
http://www.2-spyware.com/adware-removal




Now here is libel:

libel 1) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others.​

Source:
http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1153

Compare litigable damage to a person such as reduced income potential to damage to a computer such as reduced ability to perform a task.

No. It's already beyond bizarre that you're trying to suggest that a materialist should expect libel to cause brain damage. I suspect that you know this, since your motivation is to try to show how silly materialism is.

So I'm not particularly motivated to work the analogy until you say you're happy with it.

The materialist should expect that a person who is libeled might have something akin to reduced income potential, to be worked out in a court of law. There's no reason to expect that people with more money have healthier brains, or people with less money have brain damage, even in a materialistic point of view.

OK, we'll get to the real point.

Is a program a computer?

Are you a brain?

 

[Malerin]

...You're all crazy. Malerin for suggesting that materialism = verbal abuse doing physical damage and everyone else for playing wordgames and false analogies with adware.

You're all nuts -.- stick to the actual distinction made for consciousness on a purely neurological basis please. This has become as embarrassing as DOC.

I am sticking to it. Joobz claimed he was his brain.

As I am my brain,if you damage my brain you damage me

Nobody seemed to have a problem with it. However, it leads to the absurd conclusion that everytime Joobz is harmed (or any person), their brain is harmed. Common law recognizes harms to a person that have nothing to do with bodily injury. Do you agree so far?

 

[SezMe]

OK, we'll get to the real point.

Is a program a computer?

Are you a brain?

No, these are entirely beside the point. Making an analogy between and brain and a computer is just that: an analogy. It simply does not mean that a brain IS a computer.

 

[Lowpro]

I am sticking to it. Joobz claimed he was his brain.

Nobody seemed to have a problem with it. However, it leads to the absurd conclusion that everytime Joobz is harmed (or any person), their brain is harmed. Common law recognizes harms to a person that have nothing to do with bodily injury. Do you agree so far?

Leading such a literal life must be hard for you Malerin. He is his brain as far as consciousness is concerned. His body, which in connected with his brain, is a gigantic sensory tool (and reproductive organ >.>) It's a giant probe to the world if you want to think of it that way. Consciousness is a massive summation of MANY neurons all working in tandem summating their responses. NCC and the "dynamic core" are attempts to describe how consciousness actually occurs in the brain. We know a good bit, but there's still a lot more to work on.

You asked how many neurons it takes to provide consciousness, and the answer is that we aren't sure. We do know that it does require neurons though because when you lose a bunch you tend to have decreased conscious ability.

So, if libel and slander were able to directly damage/remove neurons from one's brain then DOC probably has induced catatonia to many a knowledgeable person.

 

[yy2bggggs]

Is a program a computer?

Depends on the program. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer#Virtual_computers

Are you a brain?

No, I'm an agency. But the agency is equivalent to the structure and workings of a lot of the brain.

I do agree that if you damage the brain you damage me. I don't see what's wrong with that... the evidence supports it. But it's a category error to say that this is the same kind of damage to me as when someone says my face looks funny.

Surely you recognize the difference between an insult and a lobotomy, and surely you would prefer the insult, right?

 

[joobz]

Joobz, your dog and kid are qualatatively different than "car", "sun", and "diamond". Care to guess why?

A car is qualitatively different from a diamond and a sun.
Just as a sun is qualitatively different form a car or an ocean tide.
Your point?

Surely you wrote this wrong. You value your family because they are "simply matter"? Do you value your couch as much?

I wrote it exactly right. You are reading it wrong.
The value in my family is the value I place on them. In reality, this has certain evolutionary advantages and can be boiled down to rather primitive reasons. This doesn't make it any less important to me.
I don't need an illusion of a grander scheme for me to wonder at it all and enjoy it for what it is.

 

[joobz]

I am sticking to it. Joobz claimed he was his brain.

Nobody seemed to have a problem with it. However, it leads to the absurd conclusion that everytime Joobz is harmed (or any person), their brain is harmed. Common law recognizes harms to a person that have nothing to do with bodily injury. Do you agree so far?

You are really making a ton of equivocations, all of which seem to be based upon the idea that you are very uncomfortable with me saying that I am the matter which I am composed of. I am my brain.

First, will my brain be affected if you "damage" my reputation? Well, it is actually quite possible. If I experience great depression, it can cause chemical differences in my brain that are detectable and noticeable. It is what leads to chronic depression. So yes, it is quite possible to effect my brain by effecting my "person".

now, we could argue about whether or not the pure programming that resides in my neurology is me and is some how separate from my physiology. It seems that the organic wiring and the programming are intimately linked and such divisions are l may not be possible. Let's put it one other way, if we did a brain transplant, would you be you?