Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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Christopher7 said:
Your imagination is limited. They could have stretched a hose to WTC 7, hooked it to a standpipe and shut off the main valve to keep the water from flowing out that way. This would have pressurized the standpipe in WTC 7.
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Imagination!?!?!?!?!
How ABOUT REALITY? TriForCharity was THERE, a 9/11 first responder, a real boots-on-the-ground fire expert. He told you what really happened, not what could have happened! When he says they couldn't get past seven floors or so with the water, I believe him. You and I are sitting at computers 9 years later theorizing, the least we can do is listen to a guy WHO WAS THERE.
 
Christopher7 said:
Your imagination is limited. They could have stretched a hose to WTC 7, hooked it to a standpipe and shut off the main valve to keep the water from flowing out that way. This would have pressurized the standpipe in WTC 7.
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And you have too much of it.

But what are you really saying here - that the FDNY is incompetent, or that the FDNY was in on it? Or why else did THEY say they didn't have enough water pressure to engage the fires in WTC7? C7, use your imagination, I really want to know just what you think you are saying here!
 
the least we can do is listen to a guy WHO WAS THERE.
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The next time that happens will be the first for C7.

Smoke is clearly seen billowing out of virtually the entire south face of WTC 7. The NIST report IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD.
 
chrismohr said:
Water at 1:30? Is this true Tri?
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Yes, to a small degree. Nothing like Chris7 want's to imply.

There were no major water supplies available. Major water supplies being the city water lines that fed the hydrants in the area.

There was a limited amount of what we call a relay. It is basically water that is suctioned out of the river, and relayed from pumper to pumper, and fed to different nozzles. Nothing major. It would be virtually impossible to get water up 7 stories. You would lose too much pressure by the time it got there.


chrismohr said:
Even so, that leaves several hours till 5:20.
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Correct. However, more important things needed the water supply that we had available. Putting out car fires to allow safe passage of rescue workers, hosing down the collapse area to facilitate finding any survivors, etc. A vacant building that wouldhave been virtually impossible to extinguish anyway, was not high on the list.

chrismohr said:
And at what time did chief Nigro pull his firefighters away? At that point firefighting efforts ceased, water or no water.
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IIRC, it was somewhere around 11:30 or noon, but I could be wrong on that.
 
I also have to wonder if tempesta somehow believes that columns will not lose at least some of their integrity when inelastic buckling takes place. I'm a bit confused by his demand for proof from Oystein as to whether he's even referencing what he posted. Not saying this to be a jerk or anything but I'm seriously interested in the exact degree of knowledge that he thinks he has on the engineering discussion here.

Arguments like "[insert material] will always offer more resistance than air" are never used in any literature I've read about any kind of collapse and frankly sounds like a straw man put up to obfuscate a lack of familiarity with the topic. Many of the failure mechanisms defined in engineering literature are shown to be sudden events, and I've seen this demonstrated in several applications by experiments done at my university.
 
Christopher7 said:
Your imagination is limited. They could have stretched a hose to WTC 7, hooked it to a standpipe and shut off the main valve to keep the water from flowing out that way. This would have pressurized the standpipe in WTC 7.
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Not even close. Again, your knowledge of standpipe systems and how they actually work in highrise buildings, is as useless as a screendoor on a submarine.

There would not have been enough power in the pumpers to supply any useful amount of water. Especially considering the fact that the standpipe system was damaged. Sorry about your continued ignorance on firefighting logistics.

Maybe you can answer 1 very simple question for me Chris. What is more important to the FDNY.

Is it:
A- Finding victims alive in a timely manner, including some of their own
or is it
B- Fighting a fire in an unoccupied building that posed no risk to anyone.
 
chrismohr said:
Imagination!?!?!?!?!
How ABOUT REALITY? TriForCharity was THERE, a 9/11 first responder, a real boots-on-the-ground fire expert. He told you what really happened, not what could have happened! When he says they couldn't get past seven floors or so with the water, I believe him. You and I are sitting at computers 9 years later theorizing, the least we can do is listen to a guy WHO WAS THERE.
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I think 3-4 floors would have been the max IMO. But, I can do the math if you would like.
 
Utter Balderdash

Utter Balderdash:

leftysergeant said:
Utter balderdash. The penthouse had disappeared into the interior of the building a good ten seconds before the roof began downward movement. This is clear to anyone watching the video and notng details.

As for the damage on the corner of the building, this may have compromised overall structural integrity to some dgree, putting unusual stress on undamaged structural elements, but that would hardly have been the only way in which it contributed to the collapse.

There is absolutely no question that that gaping hole provided a good source of air to the fires. From what I can make out of the graphics of heat distribution inside the building, the chimney effect directed most of the heat of the fires toward those structuralelemnts inside that failed. Your reasoning does not stand up to scrutiny because it leaves out too many processes.
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What a joke. Three buildings with different levels energy attacking them from different locations and directions causing all three to globally collapse.

What a joke. What idiocy.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Utter Balderdash:




What a joke. Three buildings with different levels energy attacking them from different locations and directions causing all three to globally collapse.

What a joke. What idiocy.
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2 Buildings damaged nearly identically fell in very similar fashions. The 3rd building fell completely differently. The only joke and idiocy is your failure to understand 9/11 10 years later. Your failure to comprehend science and math. And your continued arguments from ignorance.
 
triforcharity said:
I can assure you that there would never had been enough pressure to get a hose to the 7th floor or above in 7WTC.
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The floors were approximately 12 feet.
12 x 12 = 144 x .5 = 72 psi loss

Fire math
http://www.firefightermath.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=31&Itemid=45
By rounding up to 0.5 from 0.434, friction and head losses due to the hose itself are taken into account, and no additional calculation is needed. In the field, the 0.5 pounds per square inch head loss is therefore used. This approximation not only eases calculations, but is more realistic to use in the field.

Stop pretending you know the first thing about fire or firefighting, because it's obvious that you do not.
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Speak for yourself.

Fire pumps are designed to perform as follows:
 100% of rated capacity at 150 psi net pump pressure
 70% of rated capacity at 200 psi net pump pressure
 50% of rated capacity at 250 psi net pump pressure
http://home.honolulu.hawaii.edu/~jkemmler/chapter4.htm
 
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triforcharity said:
IIRC, it was somewhere around 11:30 or noon, but I could be wrong on that.
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According to Page 111 of the NIST report:
"At approximately, 2:30 p.m., FDNY officers decided to completely abandon WTC 7, and the final order was given to evacuate the site around the building."
 
Christopher7 said:
The floors were ... [snipped amateur's irrelevant stuff]
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What are you really saying here - that the FDNY is incompetent, or that the FDNY was in on it? Or why else did THEY say they didn't have enough water pressure to engage the fires in WTC7? C7, use your imagination, I really want to know just what you think you are saying here!
 
triforcharity said:
There would not have been enough power in the pumpers to supply any useful amount of water.
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Wrong
See post 1520
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7293331&postcount=1520

Especially considering the fact that the standpipe system was damaged.
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There was no damage to the core area where the standpipes were no doubt located. In any case, the standpipe system was not damaged in the east half of the building. If standpipe damage was a problem they could have run a line up the stairway.

Maybe you can answer 1 very simple question for me Chris. What is more important to the FDNY.
Is it:
A- Finding victims alive in a timely manner, including some of their own
or is it
B- Fighting a fire in an unoccupied building that posed no risk to anyone.
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The very simple answer is : They could do both.

They also could have run a line down the stairs from the 20th floor which was supplied by a water tank on floor 46 or 47.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
Utter Balderdash:




What a joke. Three buildings with different levels energy attacking them from different locations and directions causing all three to globally collapse.

What a joke. What idiocy.
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Are you able to offer anything more substantial than that? Come on, convince us.

:wide-eyed
 
chrismohr said:
Imagination!?!?!?!?!
How ABOUT REALITY? TriForCharity was THERE, a 9/11 first responder, a real boots-on-the-ground fire expert. He told you what really happened, not what could have happened! When he says they couldn't get past seven floors or so with the water, I believe him. You and I are sitting at computers 9 years later theorizing, the least we can do is listen to a guy WHO WAS THERE.
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TFC is anonymous poster and his claim that there was not water pressure is incorrect. Pump trucks can produce enough.
 
They also could have run a line down the stairs from the 20th floor which was supplied by a water tank on floor 46 or 47.
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So they go running into a burning building they've been ordered to evacuate so 10 years later some idiot can feel all warm and fuzzy that they fought a fire in an irrelevant structure?
 
In your haste to be right, every time you post you get more and more out of touch with reality.
TFC was THERE. That can't be overstated. His expertise is worth 1,000 x more than any link you produce that you don't understand.
 
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