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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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The Fool said:
where abouts in that document does it demonstrate discrimination in funding based on ethnicity?? you seem to be proud of yourself for finding this document....so where is the bit you are so proud of?
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Oh I see, it's OK to have crappy schools for minorities, just so long as funding is equal?

Yeah, things sound just fine down under! o wonder you're now free to solve problems on the other side of the world, now that Oz is problem-free.

We Elders have been too busy with the struggle to groom new leaders to succeed us. That leaves these restive youngsters practically leaderless, cut off from their Aboriginal roots while not fitting into white society, either—people without an identity, without a cultural home.

Many who managed against the odds to acquire strong work skills and sought jobs in Sydney or other cities just couldn't take the racism that hit them there and returned to hopeless rural lives.

Call a spade a spade: this is an apartheid country in all but name.

...Our message needs to get out into the world. Although Australia has signed up to nearly all of them, it breaches with impunity just about every United Nations provision even vaguely related to human rights. We need the kind of international scrutiny and pressure put on Australia that ultimately overthrew apartheid in South Africa.
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http://www.creativespirits.info/abo...hool-breaks-vicious-circle.html#ixzz1PURFvS2H

Did Australia really have a policy of breeding aboriginals with white people to make them lighter???? :eye-poppi
 
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WildCat said:
Oh I see, it's OK to have crappy schools for minorities, just so long as funding is equal?
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no....why do you constantly make stuff up and proclaim its my opinion?


[/quote]
Yeah, things sound just fine down under! o wonder you're now free to solve problems on the other side of the world, now that Oz is problem-free.
now that your australian aboriginal diversion has run out of steam yet again are you ready to get back on topic?

http://www.creativespirits.info/abo...hool-breaks-vicious-circle.html#ixzz1PURFvS2H

Did Australia really have a policy of breeding aboriginals with white people to make them lighter???? :eye-poppi
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I think I have figured it out.....you think because its the way you operate I must be an apologist for all things done by the australian government past and present....sorry mate, its not the case.

are we done with the weekly aboriginal diversion and ready to get back on topic?
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I think the underfunding of Arab schools in Israel is despicable. Not despicable enough to want Israel wiped off the map, but if Israel wants to survive, they're going to have to figure out a way to convince the Arabs in the region that they can be good neighbors.

I don't think that's going to be easy, because of the rampant anti-Semitism in the Arab world that predates Israel's existence. But Israel ought to try... they must.
 
The Fool said:
are we done with the weekly aboriginal diversion and ready to get back on topic?
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"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"

Let me know when you're ready for this "serious discussion" you talked about. You ought to know intimately the problems in integrating different cultures into a single country, yet you act as if these issues are unique to Israel and spend thousands of posts here demonising Israel to an absurd extreme. Up to and including speculating that Israel may try to solve a demographic issue with nuclear weapons.

Israel is an apartheid state.
Israel is committing genocide.
Israel's REAL goal is to annex the West Bank, Gaza, and maybe even Jordan.
Israel is committing war crimes.
Israel is collectively punishing the Palestinians.
Etc etc ad nauseam.

All from someone whose own country actually did take 100% of an entire continent for themselves, attempted genocide, did not even recognize the indigenous inhabitants as human beings until the 1960s. Frankly, the whole thing looks like projection from where I sit.

Are you actually ready for a "serious discussion" now? Are you ready to recognize the the history that has resulted in the present situation and seek ways to resolve it constructively? Can you recognize that maybe, just maybe the Palestinains and neighboring Arab states and Iran have less than peaceful intentions largely because of an irrational hatred of Jews? That peace cannot occurr while one side vows to destroy the other and actively makes plans to carry out that goal? Can you acknowledge that 90% of Israelis are not hardline wingnuts seeking Greater Israel?

Or will you continue to nitpick at every aspect of Israeli society and refuse to acknowledge anything on the Palestinian side until everything in Israel is perfect? You demand the impossible from the Israelis, hold them to a standard no country can achieve (certainly not your own), while you demand nothing at all from the Palestinians and their Arab and Iranian backers.

Or maybe a "serious discussion" means something else where you come from?
 
WildCat said:
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"

Let me know when you're ready for this "serious discussion" you talked about. You ought to know intimately the problems in integrating different cultures into a single country, yet you act as if these issues are unique to Israel and spend thousands of posts here demonising Israel to an absurd extreme. Up to and including speculating that Israel may try to solve a demographic issue with nuclear weapons.

Israel is an apartheid state.
Israel is committing genocide.
Israel's REAL goal is to annex the West Bank, Gaza, and maybe even Jordan.
Israel is committing war crimes.
Israel is collectively punishing the Palestinians.
Etc etc ad nauseam.

All from someone whose own country actually did take 100% of an entire continent for themselves, attempted genocide, did not even recognize the indigenous inhabitants as human beings until the 1960s. Frankly, the whole thing looks like projection from where I sit.

Are you actually ready for a "serious discussion" now? Are you ready to recognize the the history that has resulted in the present situation and seek ways to resolve it constructively? Can you recognize that maybe, just maybe the Palestinains and neighboring Arab states and Iran have less than peaceful intentions largely because of an irrational hatred of Jews? That peace cannot occurr while one side vows to destroy the other and actively makes plans to carry out that goal? Can you acknowledge that 90% of Israelis are not hardline wingnuts seeking Greater Israel?

Or will you continue to nitpick at every aspect of Israeli society and refuse to acknowledge anything on the Palestinian side until everything in Israel is perfect? You demand the impossible from the Israelis, hold them to a standard no country can achieve (certainly not your own), while you demand nothing at all from the Palestinians and their Arab and Iranian backers.

Or maybe a "serious discussion" means something else where you come from?
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ok, I take it this little outburst indicates you are not ready to get back on topic?
 
mortimer said:
I think the underfunding of Arab schools in Israel is despicable.
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It certainly doesn't help speed up the process of putting things right.

Not despicable enough to want Israel wiped off the map
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of course not....Not sure if you have had your mind read by "skeptic" yet...maybe its still your "real opinion" :)

, but if Israel wants to survive, they're going to have to figure out a way to convince the Arabs in the region that they can be good neighbors.
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Thats why I get a bit exasperated by people on here like Wildcat and Skeptic and Mycroft who assign themselves the titles of friend and defender of Israel when in reality their constant apologia for discriminatory action by israel is simply counter productive for Israel. They are simply part of the problem for Israel and not part of any solution.
I don't think that's going to be easy, because of the rampant anti-Semitism in the Arab world that predates Israel's existence. But Israel ought to try... they must.
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nothing this important is ever easy..
 
The Fool said:
I don't like policy that discriminates on the basis of ethnicity.....you don't like it either....except in Israel where you are ok with it. Thats your choice.
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Another trademarked Fool straw-man smear.

Please don't make claims about what I am or am not okay with unless you can cite appropriate references to back up your claims. Otherwise it's called "lying". Which is bad.


The Fool said:
no, I want you to site a single example of a nations education system that has different levels of funding per student based on ethnicity....I can wait, take your time.
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Show it's based on ethnicity in Israel. Doesn't political favoritism for Ultra-Orthodox schools leave non-Ultra-orthodox Jews out in the cold too?


And again, the point you ignore again and again, if the "Jewish state" is addressing the discrepancy, doesn't that prove the problem isn't with Israel being a "Jewish state"?
The Fool said:
fail...
A public holiday doesn't make the US a "christian nation"...you are clutching at straws. When was The US proclaimed a christian nation and who proclaimed it? Where is it written in any of your foundation documents that it is a christian nation....In fact, any source you can come up with besides your own imagination will do.
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We say "under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance, we have "In God We Trust" printed on our money. What "God" do you think that is?

Proclaiming it wouldn't change anything, or perhaps you can explain to us how it would>
 
Koltopi said:
yes, Israeli-Muslim-Arabs can choose to serve in the army, though most of them are of the bedouin community who are partly observant about islam, one can call them secular muslims (even though it seems like an oxymoron). Since bedouins are nomads, they take a pivotal role as trackers which is essential when it comes to border watch and identifying bomb-traps. There is also a bedouin infantry battalion.
2 mins clip on youtube - watch?v=zw3K_756GzI
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Personally served/trained with these guys in past reserve duty. I don't quite understand how one can drive by a fence at 50-60km/hr, in the scolding heat, with all the dust flying everywhere, and actually see all the disturbances at that speed. Amazing.
 
mortimer said:
I think the underfunding of Arab schools in Israel is despicable. Not despicable enough to want Israel wiped off the map, but if Israel wants to survive, they're going to have to figure out a way to convince the Arabs in the region that they can be good neighbors.

I don't think that's going to be easy, because of the rampant anti-Semitism in the Arab world that predates Israel's existence. But Israel ought to try... they must.
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There was not rampant anti-semitism that predated Israel's existence, it was Muslims who allowed Jews to return after the Romans expelled them. There was widespread fear about Jews who arrived and announced that the land where they lived would become a Jewish State. I would have thought such a fear would be a rational response as it directly contradicted their own right of self determination.

Wiping Israel off the map is not solution to the current political standoff. Any solution has to include a state of Israel. What compromises Israel has to make are important, but from what I read here, Israel has not make no compromises.
 
Mycroft said:
Another trademarked Fool straw-man smear.

Please don't make claims about what I am or am not okay with unless you can cite appropriate references to back up your claims. Otherwise it's called "lying". Which is bad.
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ok then you do like discrimination based on ethnicity in places other than Israel.



Show it's based on ethnicity in Israel.
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already done....education funding. Established and even acknowledged by Israel. Are you planning to ratchet back to denial?


Doesn't political favoritism for Ultra-Orthodox schools leave non-Ultra-orthodox Jews out in the cold too?
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If they receive more per head funding....I don't support it.

And again, the point you ignore again and again, if the "Jewish state" is addressing the discrepancy, doesn't that prove the problem isn't with Israel being a "Jewish state"?
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you just asked me to show that a discrepancy exists but now you want points for Israel addressing this discrepancy that you want me to show.....confusing.

We say "under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance, we have "In God We Trust" printed on our money. What "God" do you think that is?
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any god that you can show evidence for....maybe Allah? Muslims Jews and Christians have the same god I hear....Oh yea....Mormans,...probably more
Proclaiming it wouldn't change anything, or perhaps you can explain to us how it would>
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Proclaiming it would make the us a Proclaimed "<insert word> state" Like Israel proclaims itself the Jewish state. Not proclaiming it makes the US not a "<insert word> state.

or maybe if mycroft thinks its the case then thats enough for the US to accept it.....Once again, Have you told your President that the US is a Christian state?

You could get it established if you tried....you would have to do something about this...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" maybe you can rub it out....just tell them you have already proclaimed the establishment of Christianity so this bit of the constitution is no longer required.
 
a_unique_person said:
There was not rampant anti-semitism that predated Israel's existence, it was Muslims who allowed Jews to return after the Romans expelled them. There was widespread fear about Jews who arrived and announced that the land where they lived would become a Jewish State. I would have thought such a fear would be a rational response as it directly contradicted their own right of self determination.
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And under which caliphate was there a call for this self-determination you constantly speak of?

At least you got some key words correct, ie 'return', albeit you forgot to mention that there was a biblical Israel as well, and the concept that under the Islamic conquest of this region in question, Jews were mostly allowed to remain, not really to return.

However, judging from the above statement, it's in such a generalized format that one can easily interpret this as Jews living as dhimmis under 7th century Islam and onwards, or specifically during the mandate period, the latter of which is even more false than the prior. Muslim Arabs during the 20th century onwards until Israel's (re-)establishment made extensive efforts to block Jews from returning to any degree.

Wiping Israel off the map is not solution to the current political standoff. Any solution has to include a state of Israel. What compromises Israel has to make are important, but from what I read here, Israel has not make no compromises.
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How many times are you going to repeat this utter BS? Past peace initiatives from the period of the mandate, the partition plan, Camp David, Oslo, until the leaked 'Palestine Papers', the compromises and a solid phased withdrawal plan with concessions on both the Israelis and Palestinian parties were involved, albeit, again, larger concessions on Israel's part.

Thanks for another pure comedy and utter fictional post of yours.
 
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The Fool said:
ok then you do like discrimination based on ethnicity in places other than Israel.
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No, I disagree that allowing Palestinians to immigrate to a state set up for Palestinians constitutes discrimination. But since you make up your own definitions as you go along, I can see that arguing it with you is pointless.

The Fool said:
already done....education funding. Established and even acknowledged by Israel. Are you planning to ratchet back to denial?
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Once again…those non-Ultra-Orthodox people of the same ethnicity don’t get the special funding, therefore it’s not based on ethnicity. Further, the “Jewish state” is apparently working to address the discrepancy, putting the lie to your claim that a proclamation of “Jewish state” somehow magically changes policy all on its own.

The Fool said:
you just asked me to show that a discrepancy exists but now you want points for Israel addressing this discrepancy that you want me to show.....confusing.
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Ah, the old dishonest changing definitions ploy.

The Fool said:
any god that you can show evidence for....maybe Allah? Muslims Jews and Christians have the same god I hear....Oh yea....Mormans,...probably more

blah, blah, blah…

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" maybe you can rub it out....just tell them you have already proclaimed the establishment of Christianity so this bit of the constitution is no longer required.
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And yet only one of those religions has a federal holiday.

Look, deny it all you want we still have federal recognition of the religion plus a culture that supports it. All without discriminating against practitioners of different religion, unless you count making them work their holy days into a regular work schedule.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/5/usc_sec_05_00006103----000-.html
 
IDB87 said:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133313

Also.
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Basically what I find disgusting about the so-called "progressive" left is this tendency to deny or excuse bigotry on one hand, but then exaggerate it on the other. In this case, if Jews even think about demographics, that's bad because it's racist. But turn it around and have Arabs committing massacres or collaborating with Nazi's...well their racism is excusable because they were afraid of demographics. It's that kind of blatant double-standard that has people thinking that anti-Zionism is just code for anti-Semitism.
 
and let's not forget the Al-Husseini helping form a Waffen SS unit in Bosnia. If that's not evil, I don't know what is.
 
a_unique_person said:
There was not rampant anti-semitism that predated Israel's existence,
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You seem to be implying that Israel is responsible for Arab antisemitism and not things like Nazi foreign policy, Islam and Arab culture. Remember it was Nasser who started up the PLO and the surrounding Arab states that tried to invade Israel. None of those Arab states had problems with Jewish immigrants, in fact they drove out their own Jewish communities.
 
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