Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Rose,

On the TOD, if it does get into the appeal, then fine, we can trust the defense to put all the right arguments?

On why do I think there were 2 killers and not 1 or 3, briefly:

In the first trial the defense argued that the reconstruction of the crime showed that there was only one killer (Guede).

The prosecution argued that it showed that there was definately more than one killer, and immediately followed that by saying these were RG, RS and AK.

It is the jump from 'more than one' to three, which I question. DNA from RG and RS where found in the bedroom ... nothing from AK

I think she was telling the truth ... she was in the kitchen.

Appeals Documents

Got those that were posted 3 months after the Motivations Report (sorry, not the verdict). I'd imagine that thoughful did translate them on PMF, she is a star. I never looked, I read the orginals.

Looks like they will have been updated, probably several times, since then? As I said, I'll have a look on the court website tomorrow.

We'll get posted the best we can in English before Saturday, to help people follow proceedings?

Main Trial Audio:

All of Knox's testimony was made available on Corriere del Umbria's site, the same evening.

I remember other stuff .. I think Laura's and some other testimony ... it wasn't every hearing, for sure not the 'procedural stuff'

Anyway, we were dependant on a newspaper site, you'd only expect them to post the 'dramatic' days hearings? ... presumably, they'll do the same with the appeals.

The DNA of RS from the bra clasp is in dispute and the court is determining the reliability of that even now. Without this there is no DNA placing Raffaele at the crime scene. In addition Raffaele's appeal points out compelling evidence that Curatolo was mistaken about seeing them observing the house and has filed a supplement to the original appeal in this regard as well as additional computer evidence placing him at his flat during even the prosecution's disputed TOD.

I know when the appeals were made available because I was the one that made them available to the public for the first time. If you got them from PMF then, they got them from me. The only thing I don't have is the attachments to Raffaele's appeal and a media file that was included as well as that supplemental filing just before the deadline. Amanda filed a supplement to her appeal as well just before the deadline and I would love to see it. Part of Raffaele's appeal supplement is available here.

I have used the Corriere del Umbria archive many times and have never seen any audio there or anywhere else of the actual court testimony other than Amanda's. As I said earlier please post a link to these audio files. I would love to have them.
 
halides,

OK, we agree that there is an effective and ineffective way of being a 'Friend of Amanda'?. I would go so far as to say that the FOA has also been dismally poor at being friends of Knox's family ... encouraging them to make statements designed to interfere with the judicial process and to make unfounded statements about the conduct of the police.

The stark contrast between the Knox family/FAO behaviour and that of Meredith's family had no bearing on the outcome of the trial, but has made a bad situation worse for Curt and his family?

Calling the FOA a joke is perhaps an understatement?<snip>


It is impossible to support the claim that the efforts of the Friends of Amanda and Amanda's family have been ineffective, because there is no way to predict what the response would have been to different efforts. Many people suggested that doing nothing would have been more effective than approaching Mignini and the Italian Courts at the very beginning, or protesting their decisions later on. There is no possible way, though, to judge what the outcome of doing nothing would have been. Mignini and Massei's court could have taken advantage of that reality and made things even worse for Amanda than they did. They could have done the same thing if Amanda's family had gotten down on their knees and begged.

The effectiveness of the family and Friends of Amanda's strategies can't be measured by the vocal criticism they have received, because there may be a silent majority who tacitly approve of their efforts. No respected public authority has announced that the Friends of Amanda and the family have made a "bad situation worse;" in fact, several public figures have spoken out in support of the defendants in response to the support they see expressed by others.

Amanda's supporters and family have two choices -- do nothing or act. When you are working against an authoritarian system and someone with the personality disorders of a Mignini, exactly how you act can be irrelevant. Mignini is on a power trip and he once held all the cards. A person like that will react however he wants; it doesn't have to be a sensible response to your reasoned approach.

Mignini now holds fewer cards, and the eyes of the world are on the case. Both of those advances are due to the effectiveness of the family and friends.
 
It is impossible to support the claim that the efforts of the Friends of Amanda and Amanda's family have been ineffective, because there is no way to predict what the response would have been to different efforts. Many people suggested that doing nothing would have been more effective than approaching Mignini and the Italian Courts at the very beginning, or protesting their decisions later on. There is no possible way, though, to judge what the outcome of doing nothing would have been. Mignini and Massei's court could have taken advantage of that reality and made things even worse for Amanda than they did. They could have done the same thing if Amanda's family had gotten down on their knees and begged.

The effectiveness of the family and Friends of Amanda's strategies can't be measured by the vocal criticism they have received, because there may be a silent majority who tacitly approve of their efforts. No respected public authority has announced that the Friends of Amanda and the family have made a "bad situation worse;" in fact, several public figures have spoken out in support of the defendants in response to the support they see expressed by others.

Amanda's supporters and family have two choices -- do nothing or act. When you are working against an authoritarian system and someone with the personality disorders of a Mignini, exactly how you act can be irrelevant. Mignini is on a power trip and he once held all the cards. A person like that will react however he wants; it doesn't have to be a sensible response to your reasoned approach.

Mignini now holds fewer cards, and the eyes of the world are on the case. Both of those advances are due to the effectiveness of the family and friends.

Excellent post, Mary_H. I have not always agreed with the strategy involved in the doing of things but always agreed with the plan to be doing something.
 
Rose,

I think I'll listen to that stuff again.

Florentines are famous for their wit .. Maresca was at his funniest when gently poking fun at:

1. Patrick's lawyer, when he cocked up, repeatedly asking questions related to Guede's trial (not allowed in that trial, but are allowed on appeal)

2. Sig ra. Commodi, when she got completely confused about the time difference between Perugia and Seattle on the day the body was discovered. She should have 'scored a bulls eye' about Knox phoning her mother before 'anything happened' ... the mother's own words.
Notice that in neither case was he attacking the defense lawyers ... never happen in the UK or US?

There was another thing picked up by the mic, as the Lawyers walked out for lunch ... must hear it again !!!


Are you sure she didn't - leaving aside all the retrocausality arguments on this forum :)

The 'court' seemed to get the point.
 
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<snip>I've seen that several posters seem to be concerned that Knox's questioning was not recorded before she made her confession to being present at the murder scene at ... the interview was terminated 01:45, because she then became an offical suspect, and the interview could not continue without her having a lawyer.


Amanda's trial testimony shows the lawyers in the courtroom discussing two interrogations -- one at 1:45 a.m. and one at 5:45 a.m. The lawyers say the 1:45 interrogation took place outside of the presence of the pubblico ministero (Mignini), while the 5:45 one took place in the presence of the pubblico ministero. Amanda signed a statement at the end of each interrogation.

I would like to say that if recording potential witness interviews was standard procedure in Perugia, or indeed Italy, in November 2007, I share the outrage of my fellow posters.

If this does prove to be the case, then following my trip to Siena on 2nd July, for the Palio Festival, I will travel a little further south to Perugia to register my protest both with the chief of police and the head of the police union .... personally.

We could also make our views know at the annual police conference ... where incidently, in 2007, before the murder was committed, the head of the police union talked about the problem of accusations of misconduct against the police becoming part of the standard defense in all major trials ... the lawyers, criminologists, etc. as well as serving officers, seemed to have decided that the only solution was to test such allegations in court, which of course later happened to the families of AK, RS and others who followed the same strategy.


It is required by Italian law that police interviews with suspects are recorded. The Supreme Court "tossed out" both the 1:45 statement and the 5:45 statement for use in the murder trial. That may have been solely because the law about providing suspects with attorneys was violated, or it may also have included the violation of the law about recording.
 
Kaosium,

I've started an new post , since the one above is getting quite large.

Perfectly understandable, I often do the same. :)

My replies are:

1. The victim's family having legal representation is standard in Italy in serious cases. I believe that it may even be compulsory ... to prevent any 'comeback' after the trial .. we can check.

What I was able to dig up, mostly from an Italian from the Northeast, is that is not the case, that in fact it's frowned upon by many. However it is utilized sometimes against wealthy defendants, othertimes because the Italian justice system is often lenient in sentencing and this allows for a voice to ensure there is as stringent as sentence as possible. I will gladly review additional information on this subject however, it is tough to come by in English. I fear the amount of Google-translated Italian I have consumed following this debate may be injurious to my mental health. :p

The thing that impressed me listening to the hearings, apart from Maresca's florentine accent, was that he was not there as an 'extra prosecutor' but rather as the victim's family representive, able to ask for clarifications etc.

My impression reading the transcripts was different. He would be the one initialed 'FM' wouldn't he?

He was wonderfully 'understanding' during those first couple of days of Knox's testimony, after each 'round' of prosecution and defense questioning .... basically clearing up all the 'hate gossip' about Knox, the judge would always ask whether he had any questions.
Basically, he would ask clarification of any point, not covered ... but it was clear that both he, and the family, accepted what Knox said.

I got a different impression, that he was trying to ensure the jury heard just about every last detail of the 'Foxy Knoxy' smear without appearing to endorse it. Perhaps in his cultured Florentine accent he sounds less like a sleazoid, I was limited to merely reading the words he spoke.

Obviously, this would not happen under the 'Punch and Judy' approach to trials in the Anglosaxon world. It would be great if the posters on PMF, here, etc. could understand Italian ... the Investigative approach, derived from Roman Law, rather than Common Law, really comes out.

The more I learned of it the less surprised I was when I found out it was second only to the heirs of Byzantium in violations before the ECHR. Reading the Massei Report and about the trial prepared me for the fact that it's not just length of proceedings which are absurd, but also the denial of the right to a fair trial, which as you can see they dominate all full EU members. It also did not surprise me to find that the other Inquisitorial system was the other outlier.

If ALL the posters following this case took this approach, there would be no need for multiple boards, each attacking the other?

I find it telling that the board that adopted the Inquisitorial approach degenerated into near lunacy, generating absurd conspiracy theories, whereas the thread here which relied on an adversarial approach predicated on evidence-based argument has instead actually been ahead of the curve regarding ToD, the DNA evidence and EDFs not being released, the press suppression surrounding this case, the lies of Mignini and the police, amongst others. What is 'conspiracy' to others is merely a banal case of corruption in a dysfunctional system rampant with it to the pleasure of no one, but it has become pretty apparent to many that is what occurred. The true 'conspiracy theory' was the 'hypothesis' of Mignini and the Massei Report which is constructed employing the same devices.

Incidentally I am not delighted with our justice system which I think was best summed up by the line 'Can't help but make you feel ashamed, to live in a land where justice is a game' as obviously that's prone to abuse too, which you can see myriad examples of posted back on these threads. Ironically before I ever got interested in this case I used to dream idly of better ways to do things, and some of them incorporated portions of the Italian System. Unfortunately having seen how relying on 'incorruptible' people with no or limited oversight actually works out in the real world I've had to reconsider.

I don't have the answers either, but certainly I've seen the Italian system is amongst the worst of all possible worlds regarding justice, not just in this case but overall as well. From my research I've found it's a Franco/Ecclesiastic/Roman/Fascist system papered over with well-meaning reforms and subject to just about no legitimate oversight which has caused it to lose touch with reality. Going through how 'logic' is employed in this case causes me to understand how the Italian Court System was described by Economist magazine as 'intellectually corrupt.'

OK, we are not in an ideal world, but at least lets work through your list, with an open mind?. We could start a new post on that, to keep things tidy, if that is OK?.

Certainly! :)

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The allegations of Police Lying and Brutality should be addresses very seriously. Before approaching the revelant authorities, could you, and others, make it clear, exactly what is being alleged. Are the allegations only against the officers in this case, or a general allegation against the National Police forces?

My suspicion is the dysfunctional Italian Court System is overloaded and understaffed which causes it to rely far too heavily on police which removes the necessary oversight it must provide making it a fertile nest for corruption to flourish. That doesn't mean every single place in Italy is affected, or that all Italian police and prosecutors are corrupt, merely that it doesn't have the necessary checks to prevent it, and in places like Perugia it has become rampant, which in part led to this debacle. Dude, it's Chicago. :p

Where I come from we have a saying, 'There's truth, there's justice, and then there's the Chicago Way.'

Some important points:

1. Allegations against only officers involved in this case, we can put to the Chief of Police in Perugia and the Head of the Police Union ... I will accept that 'action'

What is the process for police complaints? Without getting slapped with a calunnia charge or a diffamazione suit I mean?

2. General allegations against the National Police forces, would surely be a matter for Amnesty International and similar human rights organisations?. We certainly should lobby delegates to the annual Police Conference? ... people involved in the justice system, worldwide, attend. Getting such grave allegations onto the agenda would not be so difficult?.

Amnesty International already is aware, their warning has been posted numerous times in this thread. I think perhaps you might be trying to bite off more than you can chew, we've been working on Chicago for more than a century! :D

The EU will sort it out eventually, that's their fish to fry. This case might help highlight just how ridiculous it's gotten, but who knows if it will do any good in the near future. Most of them will probably escape justice for the near term, I just outline it as it was necessary for me to understand how such a pathetic case could get through any court, and not be crucified by the press. It's simple, a dishonest deluded prosecutor can get basically anything he wants through at least trial of the first instance in Italy, and the press has been cowed by slander suits so for the most part they just lick the boots of the police for tidbits of juicy sleaze.

Thankfully this is starting to end, but it was necessary for the first conviction. They didn't question hardly anything! All the unbelievable errors and mistakes released to the press, along with outright lies should have been exposed long before now, it's just too bad it took so long considering the lives ruined.

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There seems to also be a lot of bad feeling directed towards one of the prosecutors, I've said something about this above .... is Sig. Commodi equally bad, or is she OK?

She seems to have hitched her career to a boat anchor, from the trial all I can recall for sure is the imaginary phone call, and that could have been an error or just sharp practice, I am unsure. She should have tried to straighten Mignini out when he went off the reservation, however now perhaps her life will be defined by it.

Solution here would surely be to ring the guy up and politely ask for an appointment to ask him about our concerns?. I don't believe he is an unreasonable man, providing we are correct about the way we go about it?.

I don't speak Italian. That's my way of saying:

"Asps, verrrrry dangerous. You go first!" :p

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Sorry, I should add something else on the allegations about the Police.

When I first went to Italy, I thought it strange that there should be two National Police forces, The Police and Carabiniere (Plus Finance Police, etc.).

However, it was explained to me that, apart from the historical roots of the forces, nobody wants to see them consolidated into one force.

The reason is simple .... if you have any real problems with one force and are getting nowhere with an officer's superiors, then you simply go and report it to the other force. It is a brilliantly simple, effective and cheap way of avoiding the kinds of things that some posters appear to believe are endemic within law enforcement in Italy.

I often wonder what might have happened had the Carabinieri come before the Postal Police got there.
 
local inertia

Mary H and RoseMontague,

Very few miscarriages of justice get addressed at the local level. I can only think of one (Patricia Stallings). In that case the prosecutor had only been on the job for less than a year and did not know he was supposed to fight tooth and nail against any effort to correct such things. That is why it is important to attract outside attention to the case.
 
Are you sure she didn't - leaving aside all the retrocausality arguments on this forum :)

The 'court' seemed to get the point.

LOL. Can I just skip the next 42 pages on this? I think I will reread a Brief History of Time. I should be done by last week.

Perhaps you can help Kevin Fay find the examples of Maresca clearing up all the hate gossip on Amanda and he and her family believing what she said.
 
'teachable moment' indeed

LOL. Can I just skip the next 42 pages on this? I think I will reread a Brief History of Time. I should be done by last week.

Perhaps you can help Kevin Fay find the examples of Maresca clearing up all the hate gossip on Amanda and he and her family believing what she said.


Now RoseM, I'm just trying to be helpful.

Remember that old rule about not contradicting comrade platonov :)
 
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teachable moment

LOL. Can I just skip the next 42 pages on this? I think I will reread a Brief History of Time. I should be done by last week.

Perhaps you can help Kevin Fay find the examples of Maresca clearing up all the hate gossip on Amanda and he and her family believing what she said.

RoseMontague,

Maresca also said words to the effect, "Italy is teaching the world, and the U.S., how to do forensics." Maybe we can all pitch in and find some examples of that.
 
kevinfay,

To the best of my knowledge Raffaele was arrested at 1 AM. It strikes me as odd that Amanda could be anything but a suspect as of the moment of his arrest, as opposed to 1:45 AM.

With respect to any supposed interference of the Knox or Mellas families in the judicial process, I don't have any reason to believe that they did. If I were of a very contrarian frame of mind, I could argue that John Kercher's complaining about how much the appeals process is hurting his family is an attempt to interfere with the appeals process. In reality I think that it is a stretch to make that argument, but I also think that Kaosium is on the right track here. The Kercher family has gotten pulled into this mess in a time and way that does not help the overall process. Both Maresca and Comodi stood up as if each one had just sat on a cactus, to object when Conti and Vecchiotti suggested opening up the knife to look for blood. My opinion is that Maresca has not helped in the search for truth.
EDT
Maresca asked one of Amanda's friends (Andrew Seliber) about her sex life in Seattle, an inappropriate question, IMO.

halides,

Are you sure that RS was arrested at 01:00?

We know he alone was asked to go to the Police station and clarify some things, he asked if he could go later, the Police said 'fine' ... assuming that that he and Knox would be attending Meredith's Memorial, like the rest of the town.

In fact, they went together to eat a pizza and then both went to the Police station. There was no need for her to be hanging around in the waiting room.

At some point, the police said to her 'hey, Raff has withdrawn his alibi for you' ... sounds like absolute bog standard police procedure worldwide?.

However, it seems that in this case he really did start distancing himself from Knox ... claiming he was asleep ... maybe she went out without him knowing etc. Either way, Knox made her confession to being at the murder scene, but fingered Patrick, not Guede.

Knox then became an offical suspect and the interview terminated.

The defense never challenged this ?.

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When Maresca 'asked one of Amanda's friends (Andrew Seliber) about her sex life in Seattle', it was hardly 'an inappropriate question', he knew the reply would be that she is a latter day Mother Teresa? . As you say, he was Knox's buddy.
 
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My reasons for believing Knox was not one of the killers:

I've got 6 reasons why AK may be found not to have actually been in the murder room. Against that, I see 2 reasons why it is possible she was. I'm not sure whether I could say beyond reasonable doubt that she stabbed Meredith.

The Motivations report has AK, RS and RG arriving at the cottage after Meredith. Then:

- AK and RS get each other sexually aroused ... probably making quite a noise about it.

- Guede gets excited, and wants 'his' ... report says 'he needed no encouragement from AK and RS' .. Meredith doesn't want to know, so he sexually assaults her.

- An excited RS is next into the room, he helps subdue Meredith

- Finally, AK comes into the room and deals the fatal blow.

Reasons to suppose AK didn't enter the room:

- No physical evidence of her in the room, there is of both RG and RS

- Guede, who certainly was in the room, only accused RS, saying specifically, AK 'non c'entra un cazzo' ... sod all to do with it ... although he says she was in the house.

- AK's blurted out confession has her in the kitchen with her fingers in her ears ... could be true?

- AK took the stand, the other two didn't. Why was she so much more confident of being found not guilty than them?.

- The jury accepted that there was no bad feeeling between AK and Meredith previously. Someone can commit murder without a reason, but RG had a sexual motive, RS seems a strange guy with his interest in animal sex, Manga magazines and knives. Those two seem far more likely to get carried away?.

- AK's general demeaner could suggest someone who is guilty of letting someone die rather than being an actual killer?. For example, at the end of the trial, when she knew a guilty verdict was likely, she pleaded not to be forced to 'wear the mask of a killer' ... if she wrote the 'Marie Pace' story, then that seems to be written by someone guilty of letting someone die?.

Reasons to suppose that AK entered the room and stabbed Meredith:

- Double DNA knife - but it is far from certain it was used in the murder and even then, was it used by AK?. Did she merely wash it? ...

- Scratch on AK's neck .... unlikely to be a love bite ... but, could Guede have held a knife at her throat and warned her to keep quiet ... possible? ... it would make her fingering Patrick instead of Guede more understandable?

Holy mother of WTF?
 
Perfectly understandable, I often do the same. :)



What I was able to dig up, mostly from an Italian from the Northeast, is that is not the case, that in fact it's frowned upon by many. However it is utilized sometimes against wealthy defendants, othertimes because the Italian justice system is often lenient in sentencing and this allows for a voice to ensure there is as stringent as sentence as possible. I will gladly review additional information on this subject however, it is tough to come by in English. I fear the amount of Google-translated Italian I have consumed following this debate may be injurious to my mental health. :p



My impression reading the transcripts was different. He would be the one initialed 'FM' wouldn't he?



I got a different impression, that he was trying to ensure the jury heard just about every last detail of the 'Foxy Knoxy' smear without appearing to endorse it. Perhaps in his cultured Florentine accent he sounds less like a sleazoid, I was limited to merely reading the words he spoke.



The more I learned of it the less surprised I was when I found out it was second only to the heirs of Byzantium in violations before the ECHR. Reading the Massei Report and about the trial prepared me for the fact that it's not just length of proceedings which are absurd, but also the denial of the right to a fair trial, which as you can see they dominate all full EU members. It also did not surprise me to find that the other Inquisitorial system was the other outlier.



I find it telling that the board that adopted the Inquisitorial approach degenerated into near lunacy, generating absurd conspiracy theories, whereas the thread here which relied on an adversarial approach predicated on evidence-based argument has instead actually been ahead of the curve regarding ToD, the DNA evidence and EDFs not being released, the press suppression surrounding this case, the lies of Mignini and the police, amongst others. What is 'conspiracy' to others is merely a banal case of corruption in a dysfunctional system rampant with it to the pleasure of no one, but it has become pretty apparent to many that is what occurred. The true 'conspiracy theory' was the 'hypothesis' of Mignini and the Massei Report which is constructed employing the same devices.

Incidentally I am not delighted with our justice system which I think was best summed up by the line 'Can't help but make you feel ashamed, to live in a land where justice is a game' as obviously that's prone to abuse too, which you can see myriad examples of posted back on these threads. Ironically before I ever got interested in this case I used to dream idly of better ways to do things, and some of them incorporated portions of the Italian System. Unfortunately having seen how relying on 'incorruptible' people with no or limited oversight actually works out in the real world I've had to reconsider.

I don't have the answers either, but certainly I've seen the Italian system is amongst the worst of all possible worlds regarding justice, not just in this case but overall as well. From my research I've found it's a Franco/Ecclesiastic/Roman/Fascist system papered over with well-meaning reforms and subject to just about no legitimate oversight which has caused it to lose touch with reality. Going through how 'logic' is employed in this case causes me to understand how the Italian Court System was described by Economist magazine as 'intellectually corrupt.'



Certainly! :)

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My suspicion is the dysfunctional Italian Court System is overloaded and understaffed which causes it to rely far too heavily on police which removes the necessary oversight it must provide making it a fertile nest for corruption to flourish. That doesn't mean every single place in Italy is affected, or that all Italian police and prosecutors are corrupt, merely that it doesn't have the necessary checks to prevent it, and in places like Perugia it has become rampant, which in part led to this debacle. Dude, it's Chicago. :p

Where I come from we have a saying, 'There's truth, there's justice, and then there's the Chicago Way.'



What is the process for police complaints? Without getting slapped with a calunnia charge or a diffamazione suit I mean?



Amnesty International already is aware, their warning has been posted numerous times in this thread. I think perhaps you might be trying to bite off more than you can chew, we've been working on Chicago for more than a century! :D

The EU will sort it out eventually, that's their fish to fry. This case might help highlight just how ridiculous it's gotten, but who knows if it will do any good in the near future. Most of them will probably escape justice for the near term, I just outline it as it was necessary for me to understand how such a pathetic case could get through any court, and not be crucified by the press. It's simple, a dishonest deluded prosecutor can get basically anything he wants through at least trial of the first instance in Italy, and the press has been cowed by slander suits so for the most part they just lick the boots of the police for tidbits of juicy sleaze.

Thankfully this is starting to end, but it was necessary for the first conviction. They didn't question hardly anything! All the unbelievable errors and mistakes released to the press, along with outright lies should have been exposed long before now, it's just too bad it took so long considering the lives ruined.

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She seems to have hitched her career to a boat anchor, from the trial all I can recall for sure is the imaginary phone call, and that could have been an error or just sharp practice, I am unsure. She should have tried to straighten Mignini out when he went off the reservation, however now perhaps her life will be defined by it.



I don't speak Italian. That's my way of saying:

"Asps, verrrrry dangerous. You go first!" :p

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I often wonder what might have happened had the Carabinieri come before the Postal Police got there.

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Victim's Lawyer

Another obvious reason for the Kerchers to be represented is that none of them spoke Italian, let alone understood the Italian legal system.

Pre-trial speculation about Knox

It sounded like nobody, lawyers on all sides, or the judges, wanted to do anything except 'put to bed' all the nonsense that was being put around before the trial. The judges were extremely sensitive ... the whole approach is 'we are here to find out what happened' not 'break the witness down' ... puts us to shame, US and UK courts could learn a lot from it.

Process for Police Complaints

'What is the process for police complaints? Without getting slapped with a calunnia charge or a diffamazione suit I mean?'

Amazingly simple, we be polite and ask in the correct way. I'll take it as an 'action', providing I am armed with a list of sensible concerns .... remember that we are talking about people's careers. It is not something to be taken lightly? But I'll certainly do it.

Thoughtful even walked up to Patrick in the street, and politely asked would he mind talking a little about his experiences ... he was great. Italy, is not Chicago or London.

Sorry, its 3 am here and must work in the morning. Could we take this up again tomorrow and over the weekend?

Just one more funny incident in the trial that Maresca poked fun at, just like the others .... when the prosecution produced an INTERPOL report on Knox's rowdy student party in Seattle .... he helped getting it literally 'laughed out of court' ... didn't get a mention in the Motivations Report if I remember correctly?. ...
 
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Amanda's trial testimony shows the lawyers in the courtroom discussing two interrogations -- one at 1:45 a.m. and one at 5:45 a.m. The lawyers say the 1:45 interrogation took place outside of the presence of the pubblico ministero (Mignini), while the 5:45 one took place in the presence of the pubblico ministero. Amanda signed a statement at the end of each interrogation.




It is required by Italian law that police interviews with suspects are recorded. The Supreme Court "tossed out" both the 1:45 statement and the 5:45 statement for use in the murder trial. That may have been solely because the law about providing suspects with attorneys was violated, or it may also have included the violation of the law about recording.

It was not allowed because article 141 of the CCP Code of Criminal Procedure says that statements that are not recorded are not allowed to be used in court. Also Article 111 requires that suspects must have a lawyer present when they make statements.
 
@kevinfay some of us understand Italian so please send us the links to the audiotapes of the Lion of Perugia Maresca and his witty banter as he holds forth in the upholding of Roman Law. That would be great, thanks.
 
Andrew Seliber

Are you sure that RS was arrested at 01:00?
SNIP
When Maresca 'asked one of Amanda's friends (Andrew Seliber) about her sex life in Seattle', it was hardly 'an inappropriate question', he knew the reply would be that she is a latter day Mother Teresa? . As you say, he was Knox's buddy.

I don't recall where I read the time of his arrest, but if I find a citation, I will post it. Andrew Seliber was a close friend of Ms. Knox, but they were not sexually intimate. The question Maresca asked Seliber is irrelevant to the crime and is therefore inappropriate, IMO, and Mr. Seliber rightly declined to answer. Maresca's comment about forensics shows fecklessness on his part.
 
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Amnesty International Report on Italy in 2007

"There was no independent police complaints and accountability body. Policing operations were not in line with the European Code of Police Ethics, for example in the requirement for officers to display prominently some form of identification, such as a service number, to ensure they could be held accountable."
EDT
From the 2008 report, "Italy continued to lack an effective police accountability mechanism. There were irregularities in legal processes against law enforcement officials accused of human rights violations."
 
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Proposed 'To Do List':

- Amnesty International Reports on Police brutality in Italy ... must be made required reading for all overseas students heading for Italy?

- Compile list of allegations to put to Perugia Police Chief, Perugia Police Union and Italian Police National Conference.

- Compile list of allegations to be put to Prosecutors ... including sexual fantasies, both male and female

- Post an English version of the latest Appeals documents for AK and RS before hearings start on Saturday

- Post English transcripts of hearings if the audio is made available - if its not translated by PMF, I'll do it.

Other?
 
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