Vaccine/autism CT discussion

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Tomblvd said:
Perhaps you can mumble your way around an explanation as to why children who have not been vaccinated get autism, or why vaccines have been around for decades, yet the increase in autism only goes back to the 80s?
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And on top of that, why the rates of autism incidence are the same for unvaccinated youth populations as they are for vaccinated ones? No, whether their parents were vaccinated doesn't matter; there's no science that argues for that and much science that argues against it, so it's not a valid excuse.
 
I can't help but notice that CM is now reduced to only replying to tangential topics (You think Autism is funny!!!) or, when actually trying to make a substantive reply, makes it as short and obscure as possible. Only to have it rammed down his throat anyway.

Better luck next time.
 
ElMondoHummus said:
And on top of that, why the rates of autism incidence are the same for unvaccinated youth populations as they are for vaccinated ones? No, whether their parents were vaccinated doesn't matter; there's no science that argues for that and much science that argues against it, so it's not a valid excuse.
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That is not true.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Vaccine studies don't have the normal control group. All participants get the vaccine.
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From the link I provided earlier:

The latest study exonerating the MMR vaccine comes from Denmark, where investigators looked at the health records of every child born from 1991 through '98, more than 537,000 children. No matter how researchers analyzed the data, there was no difference in the autism rates of children who received the MMR vaccine and those who did not.

The Danish findings, which were published in the New England Journal of Medicine last week, are persuasive for several reasons. Denmark's socialized medical system has generated one of the most complete health records of any country. So the investigators were able to document accurately both sides of the equation: those who were (or were not) vaccinated and those who developed autism. Even when other factors, such as age at vaccination, were taken into account, there was no difference in autism rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated children. There was no clustering of autism diagnoses in the weeks and months after vaccination. There was no difference in the number of diagnoses of other developmental disorders related to autism in the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups.
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But *do* keep stamping your feet about it, expecting that we'll just accept your unsupported word about (while instead we're pointing and laughing at your willingness to ignore the actual facts of the matter).
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CM: I recognize your frustration when you think of children with autism. You feel that something is happening to these children, and that it must be due to vaccination based on what you've read. It's obvious to you, and yet other people don't see it. So there must be a conspiracy by Big Pharma, and/or no one cares. But honestly, as the studies quoted elsewhere here show, the one thing that clearly doesn't cause autism is vaccination. Vaccination has instead protected millions of children from death and disease.

People do care. There are 343 NIH grants with autism in the title, so there are at least that many research projects on autism funded by NIH alone (probably more). Autism research received a big funding boost from the recent American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. I agree with you, more should be done to treat and prevent autism. It is important to investigate any possible cause. Vaccinations were investigated, and they are not the culprit. We need to look elsewhere.
 
Vaccine studies don't have the normal control group?? Once again, a woo peddler proves he didn't read the material. The 2002 Danish study I was referring to as background specifically and explicitly compared vaccinated and unvaccinated portions of the youth population of that nation. That paper was cited earlier in this thread.

Anyone want more?
Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study.

You all want a good giggle about the data from that study?
Indeed, this study even found that for children vaccinated with MMR before their diagnosis of autism the RR = 0.17, suggesting a six-fold decreased risk of autism in children vaccinated with MMR!
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My bolding.
​

Is that for real?
Is this really true? Is MMR vaccination really that protective against autism? Probably not. An effect of that magnitude would very likely been picked up in one or more of the large population-based studies that failed to find a correlation between vaccines and autism. There is also one shortcoming in this study is that it only looked at autistism and not other pervasive developmental disorders...

...The main point to remember is that, even though this study is not compelling evidence that MMR is protective against autism, at the very least, the Polish study is strong evidence against a positive correlation between vaccination with MMR or single vaccination against measles and the development of autism. It is yet another pebble in the mountain of evidence that vaccination with MMR is not associated with autism or “autistic enterocolitis.”
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No other studies have found that "protective" correlation... but I'm aware of at least one other study that has indeed confirmed the lack of correlation between autism and vaccines. I think there was a Japanese study too, but I'll have to go dig for that to see if I remember correctly. Regardless, the association has been studied. There is no - repeat, no - link between vaccinations and autism. I understand this not out of intelligence or anything special - I'm not special - but because I take the time to actually study the material I'm talking about.

That's a lot better a practice that just speaking out of one's rear end. There's a lesson there for our woo advocates.
 
And for the record I believe that I can speak for everyone here and say we all think the autism is a serious matter. The CTs associated with it are not. If anything it detracts from the real research that can actually go into the problem by focusing people on avoiding vaccinations which puts many children at harm.
 
Giordano said:
CM: I recognize your frustration when you think of children with autism. You feel that something is happening to these children, and that it must be due to vaccination based on what you've read. It's obvious to you, and yet other people don't see it. So there must be a conspiracy by Big Pharma, and/or no one cares. But honestly, as the studies quoted elsewhere here show, the one thing that clearly doesn't cause autism is vaccination. Vaccination has instead protected millions of children from death and disease.

People do care. There are 343 NIH grants with autism in the title, so there are at least that many research projects on autism funded by NIH alone (probably more). Autism research received a big funding boost from the recent American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. I agree with you, more should be done to treat and prevent autism. It is important to investigate any possible cause. Vaccinations were investigated, and they are not the culprit. We need to look elsewhere.
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Truth be told, autism aside, I don't believe many of the vaccines given children are necessary. The MMR/MMRV for instance. In the 50's they were childhood diseases. They were not thought of as life threatening in any way shape or form. That was SIXTY years ago.

So are the vaccines 4 saviors or just 4 cash cows? Tithes for big Pharma and Pediatricians?

Vaccinations have not been investigated. Read the information I have linked to.

There are so many gaps. For instance, if a vaccine trial is done with 40% of the healthiest children how will the "unhealthy" 60% of children receive the vaccine?

Is an accepted vaccine given a new trial when a new vaccine is added to the required list for children?

We often hear of adults getting a flu VACCINE shot and having a fever or other mild flu like symptoms.

Fever. Isn't that what causes seizures?

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000980.htm


http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/flushot.htm#whatarethe
What are the side effects that could occur?

* Soreness, redness, or swelling where the shot was given
* Fever (low grade)
* Aches
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What adverse events were reported among children following MMRV vaccination before the vaccine was licensed?

Mild adverse events have been found, including--

* Soreness or swelling where the shot was given (about 1 child out of 5)
* Fever (about 1 child out of 5)
* Rash (about 1 child out of 5)

The MMRV vaccine, compared with MMR and varicella vaccines given separately, has been associated with higher rates of fever and a measles-like rash during the 5-12 days after vaccination.

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What is a febrile seizure?

"Febrile" means "relating to a fever." In some children, having a fever can bring on a seizure. During a febrile seizure, a child often has spasms or jerking movements--larger or small--and may lose consciousness. Febrile seizures usually last only a minute or two. They are most common with fevers that go up fast and reach 102;° F (38.9;° C) or higher, but can also occur when a fever is going back down. Febrile seizures may happen with any condition that causes a fever, including common childhood illnesses like ear infections and, rarely, vaccination.

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Who is at risk for febrile seizures?

Most febrile seizures occur in children between the ages of 6 months and 5 years. The peak age is 14 to 18 months, which overlaps with the ages when first doses of the MMRV, MMR, and varicella vaccines are recommended. If a member of a child's immediate family has febrile seizures, that child is more likely to have a febrile seizure.
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Here are a few so called statistics that I found looking for vaccine reactions.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/a-measles-vaccine-for-mic_b_877531.html

This disdain for objective truth has real and tragic consequences. And now we come to measles and the issue of childhood immunization. Vaccines are one of the greatest achievements of modern medicine, saving hundreds of millions of lives and improving the quality of life for countless others, but because of medical illiteracy and misplaced religious zeal, some parents are, in a display of dangerous ignorance, forcing school boards across the country to accept students with no vaccination history. Consequently we are now witnessing the biggest outbreak of measles in 15 years, double the number of cases seen typically. With the success of vaccines we forget, ironically, that measles is deadly; prior to vaccinations about 5000 people dies annually in the United States from the disease. In 2008 measles killed about 170,000 worldwide. With the best intentions to protect their children, parents are in fact playing a deadly game of chicken based purely on ignorance -- lack of knowledge of the benefits of vaccination compared to the inaccurate, overstated and simply wrong conclusions about the dangers.
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http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm#measles

Measles

Before measles immunization was available, nearly everyone in the U.S. got measles. An average of 450 measles-associated deaths were reported each year between 1953 and 1963.

In the U.S., up to 20 percent of persons with measles are hospitalized. Seventeen percent of measles cases have had one or more complications, such as ear infections, pneumonia, or diarrhea. Pneumonia is present in about six percent of cases and accounts for most of the measles deaths. Although less common, some persons with measles develop encephalitis (swelling of the lining of the brain), resulting in brain damage.

As many as three of every 1,000 persons with measles will die in the U.S. In the developing world, the rate is much higher, with death occurring in about one of every 100 persons with measles.
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http://www.wellness.com/reference/conditions/measles-mumps-rubella/
The World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that more than 30 million individuals are affected each year by measles worldwide, with more than one million deaths.
In response to the widespread use of the measles vaccine, the number of U.S. measles cases has steadily declined over the last 50 years. There were several thousand cases of the measles in 1950 before the measles vaccination was available, but in 2002 there were just 44.
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Only several thousand? That's beyond stupid.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Truth be told, autism aside, I don't believe many of the vaccines given children are necessary. The MMR/MMRV for instance. In the 50's they were childhood diseases. They were not thought of as life threatening in any way shape or form. That was SIXTY years ago.

So are the vaccines 4 saviors or just 4 cash cows? Tithes for big Pharma and Pediatricians?

Vaccinations have not been investigated. Read the information I have linked to.

There are so many gaps. For instance, if a vaccine trial is done with 40% of the healthiest children how will the "unhealthy" 60% of children receive the vaccine?

Is an accepted vaccine given a new trial when a new vaccine is added to the required list for children?

We often hear of adults getting a flu VACCINE shot and having a fever or other mild flu like symptoms.

Fever. Isn't that what causes seizures?
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000980.htm
Click to expand...

Um. Really. You are once again trying to try to draw a correlation, but this time using adults are a model. But anywho any fever could result in a seizure. Once again a correlation and not a causation.


http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/flushot.htm#whatarethe
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Um...yeah. A fever again. Well eating bad clams once caused a fever in me, and so I will say clams cause fever. Or simple sickness...which would happen regardless...are you claiming autism happens regardless?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/a-measles-vaccine-for-mic_b_877531.html
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None of this story supports anything. This is either Poe's law or you didn't read it.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm#measles
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Nothing...of course it was just random.


http://www.wellness.com/reference/conditions/measles-mumps-rubella/
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Another pointless reference.

Only several thousand? That's beyond stupid.
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Why do you throw up useless references? Is this simply a game. It is a good troll. I looked through your links, and learned they are crap. Thanks...you have trolled us. Please leave and simply start a new thread...rinse and repeat.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Truth be told, autism aside, I don't believe many of the vaccines given children are necessary. The MMR/MMRV for instance. In the 50's they were childhood diseases. They were not thought of as life threatening in any way shape or form. That was SIXTY years ago.
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We've already gone through this.
You've had Rubella explained to you.
Measles is highly infectious, so even though the death rate can be low in the west the sheer rate of spread makes it quite dangerous.

Mumps is not a good thing for pregnant women to be exposed to...
 
Can someone explain to me why a disease or condition has to be life-threatening for us to try to prevent it?
 
fullflavormenthol said:
Um. Really. You are once again trying to try to draw a correlation, but this time using adults are a model. But anywho any fever could result in a seizure. Once again a correlation and not a causation.





Um...yeah. A fever again. Well eating bad clams once caused a fever in me, and so I will say clams cause fever. Or simple sickness...which would happen regardless...are you claiming autism happens regardless?



None of this story supports anything. This is either Poe's law or you didn't read it.



Nothing...of course it was just random.




Another pointless reference.



Why do you throw up useless references? Is this simply a game. It is a good troll. I looked through your links, and learned they are crap. Thanks...you have trolled us. Please leave and simply start a new thread...rinse and repeat.
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How many fevers will a baby get from vaccines before he gets a seizure while he's "sleeping unattended" in another room?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Before measles immunization was available, nearly everyone in the U.S. got measles. An average of 450 measles-associated deaths were reported each year between 1953 and 1963.
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And here we see CM casually toss 450 deaths out as if it were nothing. Of course he ignores all the other complications:

Complications with measles are relatively common, ranging from relatively mild and less serious diarrhea, to pneumonia, Otitis media and acute encephalitis (and rarely subacute sclerosing panencephalitis); corneal ulceration leading to corneal scarring. Complications are usually more severe in adults who catch the virus.

But hey, what's a few thousand blind or comatose people?

That's beyond stupid.
 
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