Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

Kaosium.

Well, we've not got long to wait until the appeal is heard?.

It's started, though it has been crawling by at a snail's pace. The next date is the eighteenth I think, that's when the five inmates testify that Rudy told them Raffaele and Amanda weren't involved. It could be over soon, we will see when the DNA report is issued later this month. At that point with Curatolo destroyed (Napoleoni didn't even show up for the rehabilitation attempt and had a summons issued) that would mean nothing to break their alibi, and nothing in the murder room. It may take until about September as well, as Mignini doesn't appear to be willing to go down without a fight. The byzantine ways of the Italian Court system must be placated.

Not all are as optimistic as me about the outcome, however if this case somehow gets past the Supreme Court (remember the reasonable doubt standard) it goes to the ECHR where it's a slam dunk and an embarrassment to Italy. Some think Mignini could pull enough strings in Perugia to get it through there one more time, with the lingering effects of the Foxy Knoxy smear, but nothing has gone his way so far thus events don't seem to suggest it. The real prosecutor keeps his distance from everything, and with the case he has left I don't blame him. Hellmann said in reference to the Massei Report, 'the only thing we know for certain is the victim is dead.' According to some familiar with the Italian Courts that suggests he wasn't at all impressed with the report of the last trial.

If your right, and considering that the defense have the most expensive lawyer in the land on their side, it should be no contest?. Newspapers, Frank, FOA, PMF etc. are all completely irrelevant?

Probably, although remember none of those lawyers had ever worked a murder trial before, despite her fame Giulia Bongiorno mostly worked corruption cases. Oggi, one of the best selling magazines in Italy is campaigning on their behalf, and its demographics are well suited for the composition of the jury. PMF and TJMK are still around with the most dedicated, some will always believe what they want to believe. They think they're fighting a 'PR campaign' conspiracy still, so they keep up the pretense. I don't think they ever expected to find out Amanda's supporters were handing out their English translation of the Massei Report to reporters though!

FOA was never any shadowy network of evildoers conspiring with sinister Gogerty-Marriott, the master media manipulators, that was all kooky nonsense. FOA gives bowling fundraisers and the like to raise money to defray costs, Gogerty-Marriott is a backwater firm that handles press requests and schedules interviews. I dunno if you bought into that at PMF, but I laughed my way though how every positive development in the press, or person who came out to campaign for an obvious miscarriage of justice got tied to them. I am certain they appreciated the free advertising!

Incidentally, if there was 'computer activity all night' doesn't that mean that both RS and AK were lying about being asleep?

No, Amanda was sleeping, Raffaele was up on the computer, but since the police overwrote that data he couldn't prove it.

I hope that Corriere Del Umbria release audio of the hearings each evening, as they did in the main trial. Listening to the first couple of days of the trial, I was absolutely certain that Knox was telling the truth about there being no bad feeling between her and Meredith and she cleared up a lot of other nonsense that was being speculated about her.

I would too, unfortunately for us Amanda now speaks fluent Italian, and that's what she spoke in her two statements before the jury so far.

When Knox was questioned about where she was on the night of the murder, it was a completely different thing. Like the jurors, I dearly wish I could believe AK and RS are innocent, but for me, it would be an insult to the victim and her family to say there is any reasonable doubt.

I would never consider voice-stress analysis using the Mark I eardrum an effective method of proving anything beyond a reasonable doubt so I rely on other factors. What pieces of evidence did you find compelling otherwise in the last trial?

Meredith was a victim of Rudy Guede who has since been convicted all the way through the Supreme Court. Amanda, Raffaele, seven total members of both families, eight journalists and two of the lawyers are all victims of the brutal bungling of the 'investigation' and Mignini who has started investigations or filed charges on all of them to try to cover up the gross errors and corruption of the police in this case. It never should have gone to trial.

 

[Katody Matrass]

_________________________

Dan,

"Everything came back to me like a flood, one detail after another...."


The quote is from Amanda's Prison Diary, written in English. Here: My Prison Diary

///

Thanks for refreshing that piece in my memory, too I find it curious that Amanda is not allowed a seeing with her mother or a visit from a lawyer, yet there are already a "father" and a "sister" coming to her talking about "remembering things".

 

[Kevinfay]

It's started, though it has been crawling by at a snail's pace. The next date is the eighteenth I think, that's when the five inmates testify that Rudy told them Raffaele and Amanda weren't involved. It could be over soon, we will see when the DNA report is issued later this month. At that point with Curatolo destroyed (Napoleoni didn't even show up for the rehabilitation attempt and had a summons issued) that would mean nothing to break their alibi, and nothing in the murder room. It may take until about September as well, as Mignini doesn't appear to be willing to go down without a fight. The byzantine ways of the Italian Court system must be placated.

Not all are as optimistic as me about the outcome, however if this case somehow gets past the Supreme Court (remember the reasonable doubt standard) it goes to the ECHR where it's a slam dunk and an embarrassment to Italy. Some think Mignini could pull enough strings in Perugia to get it through there one more time, with the lingering effects of the Foxy Knoxy smear, but nothing has gone his way so far thus events don't seem to suggest it. The real prosecutor keeps his distance from everything, and with the case he has left I don't blame him. Hellmann said in reference to the Massei Report, 'the only thing we know for certain is the victim is dead.' According to some familiar with the Italian Courts that suggests he wasn't at all impressed with the report of the last trial.



Probably, although remember none of those lawyers had ever worked a murder trial before, despite her fame Giulia Bongiorno mostly worked corruption cases. Oggi, one of the best selling magazines in Italy is campaigning on their behalf, and its demographics are well suited for the composition of the jury. PMF and TJMK are still around with the most dedicated, some will always believe what they want to believe. They think they're fighting a 'PR campaign' conspiracy still, so they keep up the pretense. I don't think they ever expected to find out Amanda's supporters were handing out their English translation of the Massei Report to reporters though!

FOA was never any shadowy network of evildoers conspiring with sinister Gogerty-Marriott, the master media manipulators, that was all kooky nonsense. FOA gives bowling fundraisers and the like to raise money to defray costs, Gogerty-Marriott is a backwater firm that handles press requests and schedules interviews. I dunno if you bought into that at PMF, but I laughed my way though how every positive development in the press, or person who came out to campaign for an obvious miscarriage of justice got tied to them. I am certain they appreciated the free advertising!



No, Amanda was sleeping, Raffaele was up on the computer, but since the police overwrote that data he couldn't prove it.



I would too, unfortunately for us Amanda now speaks fluent Italian, and that's what she spoke in her two statements before the jury so far.




I would never consider voice-stress analysis using the Mark I eardrum an effective method of proving anything beyond a reasonable doubt so I rely on other factors. What pieces of evidence did you find compelling otherwise in the last trial?

Meredith was a victim of Rudy Guede who has since been convicted all the way through the Supreme Court. Amanda, Raffaele, seven total members of both families, eight journalists and two of the lawyers are all victims of the brutal bungling of the 'investigation' and Mignini who has started investigations or filed charges on all of them to try to cover up the gross errors and corruption of the police in this case. It never should have gone to trial.

Kaosium,

Yes, next hearing is Saturday, I believe.

I also speak fluent Italian, 10 yrs in Italy and now in Lugano, the Italian canton of Switzerland. It helps when hearing someone give testimony ... imagine following the OJ trial if it was conducted in Chinese ... even with a transcript it is difficult to understand, what rings true and what doesn't.

If hearing the testimony of the witnesses and accused didn't matter, there would be no need to have a trial at all?. The Judges and Jurors could simply read statements and never leave 'chambers' ?

Are you saying that RS claimed he was awake all night until 6 am on the computer? There was no claim of this sort in the main trial, has he claimed that since?

I've never claimed that the FOA has been anything but a joke. However, it is understandable that Knox felt she couldn't finally tell the truth, even once Guede was safely behind bars, because:

1. When she attempted to change her story again in front of her lawyer, he threaten to walk off the case.

2. Her family had already mobilized in her defence

3. Her buddies had launched the absurd FOA ... a PR campaign in the USA, to win a court case in Italy?. Knox was probably young enough to believe this might help, especially with the kind of statements her family and friends were coming out with.

4. Her lawyer presumably had to judge how far he should coordinate the RS's lawyer ... I believe she would have been better with a separate defence (She was there at the crime scene, but didn't join in the attack ... no trace of her in the murder victim's bedroom)

I don't doubt that Guede was the prime instigator of the crime, and that a sexually aroused, habitual knife carrying RS, whose previous form of gratification was derived from animal porn, joined him.

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium,

Yes, next hearing is Saturday, I believe.

I also speak fluent Italian, 10 yrs in Italy and now in Lugano, the Italian canton of Switzerland. It helps when hearing someone give testimony ... imagine following the OJ trial if it was conducted in Chinese ... even with a transcript it is difficult to understand, what rings true and what doesn't.

If hearing the testimony of the witnesses and accused didn't matter, there would be no need to to have a trial at all?. The Judges and Jurors could simply read statements and never leave 'chambers' ?

It is simply of less reliability than other factors relevant in this case. How is it any of those jurors could feel qualified to definitely judge the reactions of someone from a culture entirely alien to them? There's places in this world you stick your thumb in the air towards them and they think you're complimenting them, you do it other places you might get a clout in the teeth.

Are you saying that RS claimed he was awake all night until 6 am on the computer? There was no claim of this sort in the main trial, has he claimed that since?

How late does he have to be up? Meredith was almost certainly dead by 10PM, a mere half an hour past when they put Naruto in and all computer data was lost for the first trial. When they say 'all night' I'm not assuming they mean until the non-overwritten interaction at ~6:00 AM, but if they did that makes it impossible he was involved anyway, so who cares?

I never claimed that the FOA has been anything but a joke. However, it is understandable that Knox felt she couldn't finally tell the truth, even once Guede was safely behind bars, because:

At this point it seems pretty obvious Amanda told the truth except for the time she was mentally and emotionally abused by the police who trapped her in a room all night long and insisted she remember something that didn't happen and that they had 'hard evidence' she was at the scene and that Raffaele had 'dropped' her alibi. It's false memory syndrome that leads to an internalized false confession, which is what happened to her.

BTW, the provable lies by the cops during this case are legion, the most egregious being when they lied and said Amanda was a compulsive liar. They fed false information that can be proven at this point to the press to destroy her credibility and give people the impression she wasn't telling the truth.

1. When she attempted to change her story again in front of her lawyer, he threaten to walk off the case.

This sounds like an urban legend, there were lots of those floating around that were debunked the past year. Can you provide a reliable source?

2. Her family had already mobilized in her defence

3. Her Seattle buddies had launched the absurd FOA ... a PR campaign in the USA, to win a court case in Italy?. Knox was probably young enough to believe this might help, especially with the kind of statements her family and friends were coming out with.

FOA was to support the family, who naturally were willing to tell people about the outrageous lies told and crimes committed against their daughter. Who wouldn't?

4. Her lawyer presumably had to judge how far he should coordinate the RS's lawyer ... I believe she would have been better with a separate defence (She was there at the crime scene, but didn't join in the attack ... no trace of her in the murder victim's bedroom)

I think they made the right choice sticking together.

I don't doubt that Guede was the prime instigator of the crime.

The cops screwed up and arrested three people for a ridiculous crime virtually unknown to human behavior, three people who barely knew each other conspiring to rape and murder someone for no discernible reason. They did so on the basis of zero evidence except the gibberish they got from two college kids they terrorized all night long. It was then was compounded by the imagination of a guy who's been prosecuted for starting 20 unlawful investigations of those outraged he'd been digging up bodies to compare pants sizes 'investigating' a case almost twenty years old. He said it was some sort of bizarre ritual orgy murder/sex game/whatever and then they staged a break in leaving absolutely no trace of any of them at the scene.

Then they caught a known break-in artist that left his traces all over the scene and fled the country. There's the answer to everything. It was that simple, but he made it impossibly complicated.

 

[zeb]

Kaosium,

Yes, next hearing is Saturday, I believe.
Yes you are right

I also speak fluent Italian, 10 yrs in Italy and now in Lugano, the Italian canton of Switzerland. It helps when hearing someone give testimony ... imagine following the OJ trial if it was conducted in Chinese ... even with a transcript it is difficult to understand, what rings true and what doesn't.
Woopee.

I do not know about that trial, but there was a lot of if's, and buts in that trial

If hearing the testimony of the witnesses and accused didn't matter, there would be no need to to have a trial at all?. The Judges and Jurors could simply read statements and never leave 'chambers' ?

That is very true, but they did leave chambers, and the last bit you got very right .

Are you saying that RS claimed he was awake all night until 6 am on the computer? There was no claim of this sort in the main trial, has he claimed that since?

Raffaele is a human being, like you and me he will need his sleep, or zzzzzzzzzzzzzz's if from the usa, and do not forget that Rafaele computer was in the great hands of th IT experts, when he went on trial.

I never claimed that the FOA has been anything but a joke. However, it is understandable that Knox felt she couldn't finally tell the truth, even once Guede was safely behind bars, because:

1. When she attempted to change her story again in front of her lawyer, he threaten to walk off the case.

No he did not, all he said that Amanda was still not in her own mind, the story had change three times, Amanda did not know at the time if she was comeing or going, o we forget that she was inprison at the time, with out know lawyer at the time, just but to things stright at the time, Amanda was only had excess, to a lawyer just before the first trail

2. Her family had already mobilized in her defence.

At that time the family was in deep shock, it was only after Amanda mother, was aloud to see her did the PR machine went to work, after all the press was making her look like a street walker.

What would you do, if the press came that hard on you? Or your family?


3. Her Seattle buddies had launched the absurd FOA ... a PR campaign in the USA, to win a court case in Italy?. Knox was probably young enough to believe this might help, especially with the kind of statements her family and friends were coming out with.

Rubbish

4.Her lawyer presumably had to judge how far he should coordinate the RS's lawyer ... I believe she would have been better with a separate defence (She was there at the crime scene, but didn't join in the attack ... no trace of her in the murder victim's bedroom)

I don't doubt that Guede was the prime instigator of the crime.

Prove it

Seeing that he was the only person who DNA, oh I forgot, his finger prints,
and blood shoe prints, and what an ******* he was in Perugia.
IT all there in black or white, take it or leave it

Plassssssssssssssse give some real facts and not a load of ********

Edited by LashL: 

Edited to properly mask profanity. Please see Rule 10 and the explanatory note here.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

this is beyond reasonable doubt?

When Knox was questioned about where she was on the night of the murder, it was a completely different thing. Like the jurors, I dearly wish I could believe AK and RS are innocent, but for me, it would be an insult to the victim and her family to say there is any reasonable doubt.

Kevinfay,

An unnamed juror told ABC "It is hard to envision Knox doing this. But it is possible. We can all drink too much, then get into a car and drive." (Murder in Italy, p. 319)

Does "possible" mean beyond reasonable doubt? Does the analogy presented make sense?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

not seeing your point

I've never claimed that the FOA has been anything but a joke. However, it is understandable that Knox felt she couldn't finally tell the truth, even once Guede was safely behind bars, because:

1. When she attempted to change her story again in front of her lawyer, he threaten to walk off the case.

2. Her family had already mobilized in her defence

3. Her buddies had launched the absurd FOA ... a PR campaign in the USA, to win a court case in Italy?. Knox was probably young enough to believe this might help, especially with the kind of statements her family and friends were coming out with.

kevinfay,

At the FOA website I found a letter coauthored by two forensic scientists and cosigned by seven more criticizing the DNA evidence. I also found a review article on the uses of luminol. Is putting out forensic information absurd? a joke?

 

[JREF2010]

Kaosium.
Listening to the first couple of days of the trial, I was absolutely certain that Knox was telling the truth about there being no bad feeling between her and Meredith and she cleared up a lot of other nonsense that was being speculated about her.

When Knox was questioned about where she was on the night of the murder, it was a completely different thing. Like the jurors, I dearly wish I could believe AK and RS are innocent, but for me, it would be an insult to the victim and her family to say there is any reasonable doubt.

I dont have that skill to interpret the audio tape. But those thinking they are lying seem to ignore the facts that they repeated several times what they did that night, only the exact time stamp wasn't recalled. The movie, eating dinner, the leaking sink the Patrick-text for a night off, guitar playing etc.

Then add the phone call from Sollecito's dad and Popovic's plan to have a ride in Raffaeles car, then she stopped by to cancel the favor, and with all this it seems too difficult for me to fantasize about a setup and motive for murder a few moments later.

We arent talking about some gangbangers in Los Angeles that go shooting for fun. We have two college students who were on a holdiay evening together with no pre history of violence.

What is it you wanted to hear them say about that night? What is it you were hoping they could explain and what specifically made you find them , in your opinion, to be lying?

 

[spartacus]

Prove it

Seeing that he was the only person who DNA, oh I forgot, his finger prints,
and blood shoe prints, and what an ******* he was in Perugia.
IT all there in black or white, take it or leave it

Plassssssssssssssse give some real facts and not a load of ********

Let's not forget the fact that Rudy did not speak English, and Amanda did not speak Italian. And they had met once when he made the awkward comment 'do you have a boyfriend?' How did they coordinate the rape murder? Also Mignini stated in court that this was a ritual sex act and *human sacrifice* (his words) in honor of Halloween, that they had to push back by a day.

 

[Dan O.]

Incidentally, if there was 'computer activity all night' doesn't that mean that both RS and AK were lying about being asleep?

Raffaele's appeal makes a specific claim about the existence of evidence recorded on Raffaele's computer hard drive that could be trivially falsified if it were not true. I therefore will believe that this information is true until evidence is presented that explicitly shows it is not.

Raffaele's story has consistently been that he and Amanda were at his apartment all night and that he dinked around on his computer for a while before going to bed. His only real reference to time was that he remembered talking to his father at 11pm.

Raffaele took a lot of flak in the online debates for that phantom conversation with his dad. But we know now that his dad did in fact send an SMS to Raffaele at 11pm and that Raffaele received this message before going to bed for the night.

 

[RoseMontague]

Kaosium.
I hope that Corriere Del Umbria release audio of the hearings each evening, as they did in the main trial. Listening to the first couple of days of the trial, I was absolutely certain that Knox was telling the truth about there being no bad feeling between her and Meredith and she cleared up a lot of other nonsense that was being speculated about her.

I am confused. Amanda did not testify in the first few days of the trial. I am aware of the audio of her testimony but not of tape at the end of each day. Do you have a link to this audio?

 

[RoseMontague]

Massei page 17:

In fact the petition was made by the Kerchers, plaintiffs, to hold the trial in closed court according to Article 472 paragraph 1 of the criminal procedure code, in the expectation that in the category of the charges the crime of sexual violence would also be treated. Following the discussion on the questions both as to derogation from the principle of a public trial and also of the eventual consent to audio-visual recording of the hearings, the Court deliberated according to the order in the trial records. On the one hand submission was made not to derogate from the principle of public hearings - the offended party not being a minor and furthermore no longer alive, the charge did not render it obligatory to proceed in closed court – in any case reserving the admission of evidence in the absence of the public for single activities for which a specific need arose; as for the possibility of audio-visual recordings of the trial provided by article 147 section 2 of the Criminal Procedure Code, in the absence of agreement between the parties, the Court did not opt to autonomously authorise the recordings according to the disposition of article 147 section 2 already cited. It was argued in fact that the public [nature of the] hearings from which it was not intended to derogate, would permit in itself on the part of journalists of the print media and of the television channels present in the court, the full and timely informing of public opinion, such as to satisfy the public interest in information pertaining to the trial. Nonetheless, a possible different determination was held in reserve should the parties later give their consent.

 

[christianahannah]

I am confused. Amanda did not testify in the first few days of the trial. I am aware of the audio of her testimony but not of tape at the end of each day. Do you have a link to this audio?

There was not direct testimony during the early part of the trial from Amanda, however, she did make spontaneous statements concerning the testimony of Meredith's friends, the police, etc. during the trial as did Raffaele.

 

[RandyN]

Kaosium,

Yes, next hearing is Saturday, I believe.

I also speak fluent Italian, 10 yrs in Italy and now in Lugano, the Italian canton of Switzerland. It helps when hearing someone give testimony ... imagine following the OJ trial if it was conducted in Chinese ... even with a transcript it is difficult to understand, what rings true and what doesn't.

If hearing the testimony of the witnesses and accused didn't matter, there would be no need to have a trial at all?. The Judges and Jurors could simply read statements and never leave 'chambers' ?

Are you saying that RS claimed he was awake all night until 6 am on the computer? There was no claim of this sort in the main trial, has he claimed that since?

I've never claimed that the FOA has been anything but a joke. However, it is understandable that Knox felt she couldn't finally tell the truth, even once Guede was safely behind bars, because:

1. When she attempted to change her story again in front of her lawyer, he threaten to walk off the case.

2. Her family had already mobilized in her defence

3. Her buddies had launched the absurd FOA ... a PR campaign in the USA, to win a court case in Italy?. Knox was probably young enough to believe this might help, especially with the kind of statements her family and friends were coming out with.

4. Her lawyer presumably had to judge how far he should coordinate the RS's lawyer ... I believe she would have been better with a separate defence (She was there at the crime scene, but didn't join in the attack ... no trace of her in the murder victim's bedroom)

I don't doubt that Guede was the prime instigator of the crime, and that a sexually aroused, habitual knife carrying RS, whose previous form of gratification was derived from animal porn, joined him.

See now we are being lied to. This guy was never banned from PMF. His logic and thought process leads me to believe he is on the board of directors.

 

[Alt+F4]

See now we are being lied to. This guy was never banned from PMF. His logic and thought process leads me to believe he is on the board of directors.

Why do you post in bold and underlined?

 

[RandyN]

Originally Posted by Kevinfay
4. Her lawyer presumably had to judge how far he should coordinate the RS's lawyer ... I believe she would have been better with a separate defence (She was there at the crime scene, but didn't join in the attack ... no trace of her in the murder victim's bedroom)


Ya see Kevin then she would have to lie. Because there is zero evidence she was ever at the cottage later than 5 or 6 PM. You still think like the papers reported two years ago.

Perhaps you missed the part where the Italian Supreme Court ruled that all statements given by AK prior to 6 Nov 2007 to have been obtained illegally and therefore are not to be used in court because AK was not provided a lawyer as the law requires.Originally Posted by Kevinfay


I don't doubt that Guede was the prime instigator of the crime.


Close...how about the only instigator as in lone wolf... he really climbed in thru Filomenas window... burglar turned rapist, murderer.

Unless you have compelling evidence beyond Amanda lied? We would be more than happy to change sides here. Prove the case the AK and RS were a part of this murder.

 

[RandyN]

Why do you post in bold and underlined?

I am almost blind so it makes it easier for me to see.

 

[quadraginta]

Why do you post in bold and underlined?

The forum software won't let him post in all uppercase?

 

[quadraginta]

I am almost blind so it makes it easier for me to see.

That's strange. It makes it harder for me to read.

If you press <Ctrl>"+" it will enlarge what you see on your screen. Press it again and it will enlarge it more. <Ctrl>"-" will reduce it again. It won't affect how it appears to anyone else on the forum.

Maybe you could try that as an alternative.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

zoom

That's strange. It makes it harder for me to read.

If you press <Ctrl>"+" it will enlarge what you see on your screen. Press it again and it will enlarge it more. <Ctrl>"-" will reduce it again. It won't affect how it appears to anyone else on the forum.

Maybe you could try that as an alternative.

Quadraginta,

Thanks. My browser also has a "zoom text only" option under view that I find helpful. With respect to the knife, my prediction is that the experts will say that it is unlikely to be the murder weapon, and one of the reasons they will give is the presence of starch.