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Just looking at Heaven and Hell a bit.

Gawdzilla Sama

121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
Gawdzilla Sama
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... - my initial point is that it is impossible to know with certainty - taking into account our limited knowledge - that no deity/s exists.
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Which makes the point moot. No evidence for deity, no sign of a deity, no need for a deity. Except for those of us who are so egotistical that we think the Universe cares about us so much that it arranged an entire alternative reality for us and ensures that we'll be transported to that alt. when we die. What are the odds that would happen?
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(Copied from an exchange I'm having at atheistforums.com.)

So, believers, do think this is the case, that there is an alternative reality built just for you?
 
Just to be the devil's advocate (so to speak) for a minute...

Except for those of us who are so egotistical that we think the Universe cares about us so much that it arranged an entire alternative reality for us and ensures that we'll be transported to that alt. when we die. What are the odds that would happen?
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Basically, we don't know what the odds are because that would require knowing a great deal more than we do. We don't know what the odds are of life on other planets... we don't know much about our universe as a whole... we just don't know that much yet.

Don't get me wrong... many theists seem to know even less.

However, I think it's massively premature to say that we could know anything about the odds of a deity, afterlife, etc. Especially in the absence of any evidence, pro or con.

Basically I am saying that I don't know.

I don't think anyone else does either. :)
 
RobDegraves said:
Basically, we don't know what the odds are because that would require knowing a great deal more than we do. We don't know what the odds are of life on other planets... we don't know much about our universe as a whole... we just don't know that much yet.
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We know that life exists. Other realities tailored for our needs ? We may not "know" if they exist, but we know that the belief that they do was manufactured by people.
 
RobDegraves said:
Just to be the devil's advocate (so to speak) for a minute...



Basically, we don't know what the odds are because that would require knowing a great deal more than we do. We don't know what the odds are of life on other planets... we don't know much about our universe as a whole... we just don't know that much yet.

Don't get me wrong... many theists seem to know even less.

However, I think it's massively premature to say that we could know anything about the odds of a deity, afterlife, etc. Especially in the absence of any evidence, pro or con.

Basically I am saying that I don't know.

I don't think anyone else does either. :)
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Specifics and definitions make things clearer I feel. If you work at the level of generalities then 'I don't know' is probably the default position.

However, once you start to look at specific claims, define the terms, establish meaningful definitions of what is being talked about and understand the mechanics of how they might work then the odds of these things drastically reduce - typically to zero.
 
Hokulele said:
Considering many theists believe this universe was created specifically for them (the whole Fine Tuning argument), how would it be a stretch for them to have another one built?
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I have this mental image of a cosmic builder, pencil behind ear and trousers strategically lowered to reveal a hint of cleavage, noisily sucking his teeth and commenting that you can't get the parts for these no more, mate...

Dave
 
However, once you start to look at specific claims, define the terms, establish meaningful definitions of what is being talked about and understand the mechanics of how they might work then the odds of these things drastically reduce - typically to zero.
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I would not say zero, since I don't think it's possible to attain that level of certainty.

However, by being more specific it certainly can make a theistic argument far more falsifiable.

One thing I always dislike in such arguments is that people always default back to a specific deity (usually Christian) to argue about without examining the specifics of the beliefs.

There are a lot of beliefs in the world... now and in the past. Even within a specific religion you can find a whole spectrum of beliefs. I think it's fair to say that religion is hardly a scientific model. Which makes it impossible to discuss in a scientific matter without a great deal of sociological, cultural and historical background.

BTW... none of this applies to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, because that's obviously a scientific truth.

:)
 
Hokulele said:
Considering many theists believe this universe was created specifically for them (the whole Fine Tuning argument), how would it be a stretch for them to have another one built?
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Well, there's that, but then they just told me that the same God basically made two universes:

Universe A, where basically life is crap. You're not even wired to stay happy, no matter what you do or have. And for circa 99.5% of the time humans existed, the life expectancy would be somewhere around 20 years. For circa 99.95% of the time humans existed, starvation and famines were a fact of life, ditto for violent deaths of one sort or another, diseases ran rampant, ignorance caused even more victims in the form of witch hunts and tribal wars over who caused some 'curse', etc. A universe which still occasionally kills babies in a horrible way. A universe where more women died in childbirth or from childbirth-related complications than by the Black Death, and for some 99.9% of the time humans existed, it was pretty much a given that if you're a woman, it sucks to be you, and not just for that reason. Etc.

Universe B, where basically all that doesn't happen. People don't develop chronic diseases, women don't get broken hips after menopause, babies don't get cancer, and people don't get urges to murder each other even though they still have their free will.

So... WTH is the point with putting them through universe A first?

Worse yet, for 99% of the time humans existed, there was no way to get into universe B at all. Or so the Christians tell me.

WTH is the point of that? I mean, it's like if I made the perfect MMO, a thousand times better than WoW and all, but everyone must first play Daikatana for 10 years before being allowed to subscribe to it. Oh yeah, and I'm not releasing that great MMO for another hundred years, just because I enjoy having it sit empty. I mean.. why?
 
Goddidit!

HansMustermann said:
...but everyone must first play Daikatana for 10 years before being allowed...
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You just blew me away with the Daikatana reference! :eye-poppi Coincidentally, I was just talking to a co-worker yesterday about Romero and Carmack, and we reminisced about this:

Bitchad.jpg
 
RobDegraves said:
I would not say zero, since I don't think it's possible to attain that level of certainty.
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Nope, I'm sticking with zero. If the claim is probed to a significantly detailed level to allow it to be tested then it generally falls apart.

Far from the issue being that people default to a specific deity the issue is that people continually move the goalposts during these discussions and refuse to commit to a specific deity.

The argument becomes you can't prove for certain that 'something' doesn't do 'something'.The secret of all supernatural claims is to keep them sufficiently vague as to allow wiggle room in uncertainty.
 
I would say Heaven isn't a separate reality at all, but a transformation of this reality following Global Judgment.

Hades is ephemeral.
 
Nope, I'm sticking with zero. If the claim is probed to a significantly detailed level to allow it to be tested then it generally falls apart.
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OK.. let's do it.

Let's take the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Give me a case where there is zero probability that it exists.
 
WTH is the point of that? I mean, it's like if I made the perfect MMO, a thousand times better than WoW and all, but everyone must first play Daikatana for 10 years before being allowed to subscribe to it. Oh yeah, and I'm not releasing that great MMO for another hundred years, just because I enjoy having it sit empty. I mean.. why?
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Isn't that sort of thing the point of MMOs? They don't let you get to the Level Awesome content until you've spent enough time doing Level Craptastic chores to properly appreciate the change.

The bitch is, then you get to see how fun the Level SuperAwesome content is going to be in just another a month or so.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
Isn't that sort of thing the point of MMOs? They don't let you get to the Level Awesome content until you've spent enough time doing Level Craptastic chores to properly appreciate the change.

The bitch is, then you get to see how fun the Level SuperAwesome content is going to be in just another a month or so.
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We could get into that bit, but basically you get what I'm talking about. If I make two games, one crap and one awesome, I'm not going to put a condition that means 90% of the people can't join the awesome one.

It's like saying that you can't buy Rage unless you beat the high score on Daikatana. Why would anyone really want to do that?

But if you want to talk MMO design, actually most games are designed to be easy and forgiving at the lower levels, and ramp the difficulty curve as you level up. There fact is, people don't start at Level Awesome. Most join on some demo account, and must be able to say "you know, I'd play more of this" when they hit the level cap on that one.

You really wouldn't want to start people with the equivalent of being born a serf in the middle ages, and dying a horrible permanent death due to catching some random disease or having an invasion loot their grain on the same year they had a drought, because those won't extend their subscription.
 
HansMustermann said:
I'm not going to put a condition that means 90% of the people can't join the awesome one...

...Most join on some demo account, and must be able to say "you know, I'd play more of this" when they hit the level cap on that one...

You really wouldn't want to start people with the equivalent of being born a serf in the middle ages, and dying a horrible permanent death due to catching some random disease or having an invasion loot their grain on the same year they had a drought, because those won't extend their subscription.
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This leads me to believe that if there were a heaven, it would not be a pay-to-play service. Would there, thus, be in-game advertisers? I bet nobody's ever thought of that one!
 
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