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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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What do you think the likelihood is that a Palestinian state would accept the conditions of statehood under international law, and stick to it? We saw what happened in Gaza when Israel withdrew. What consequences would a Palestinian state face if they expelled or otherwise persecuted non-Muslims? Would those consequences be more lenient or more strict than the consequences for all the other Muslim states that have expelled or persecuted non-Muslims in recent history?

can never say for certain.....but I don't see why they should have any different treatment to anyone else.

as to consequences for expelling Jews? I suppose anything from sanctions to a UN authorised army on the door, depending on the severity of the issue.

what is your alternative.....leave them as Israeli controlled stateless people forever because you feel they can never be trusted?

Another factor is why the Palestinians should be an issue for Israel alone. With statehood their behavior becomes a world issue not just Israels.
 
can never say for certain.....but I don't see why they should have any different treatment to anyone else.

as to consequences for expelling Jews? I suppose anything from sanctions to a UN authorised army on the door, depending on the severity of the issue.

what is your alternative.....leave them as Israeli controlled stateless people forever because you feel they can never be trusted?
I think they should show some ability to be peaceful and get along well with others. Did you read the survey results that Mycroft posted a couple days ago?
Another factor is why the Palestinians should be an issue for Israel alone. With statehood their behavior becomes a world issue not just Israels.
Ah yes. The UN would certainly come down hard on a Palestinian state if they continued to attack Israel. :rolleyes:

No, they'd continue to be Israel's problem...
 
Here you go again, repeating this as an issue. I don't say that Israel provides rights and freedoms to non-Jews in Israel as mere opinion, its practiced as law in Israel. Perhaps I wasn't clear the first half-dozen times I've stated it. Its NOT an opinion.


So we're at the point that this is an issue of your perception of Israel as not granting equal rights to non-Jews in Israel.


And here again, its your perception including the term Jewish as inflammatory.

Perhaps you explain the reasoning, with actual references bound in history, where the PA/Hamas/Palestinian populace in general will be more accepting of Israel if it were to remove Jewish from "Democratic and Jewish state"?

This of course is beyond repeating the same statement as above with such catchy terms as 'inflammatory' and 'biased'.


How so?

Perhaps you could point to me the countries with a listed State religion are automatically classified as discriminatory as well, compared to say a Jewish identity, of those who reside in the country without said State religion.


Yes, we do. The big difference is my opinion is based on fact and a long history, whilst your perception of Israel is based on a misconception tied in with the concept of having a Jewish identity attached to a country where it originated from inherently implies discrimination against non-Jews without just cause.

So we are at the point where you can keep repeating the same red herring in relation to it being a hinderance to a two-state solution, or one can address the actual issues at hand.

This is not an issue of "IF" disrimination exists in Israel against people who are not Jewish.

If you are so confident that discrimination doesn't exist in Israel, than go ask an Israeli Arab or Palestinian if they have been discriminated against, know of cases where people have been discriminated against, or have family or firends who have been discriminated against.


The facts are that there has been a long history of discrimination against people who are not Jewish in Israel, and Netanyahu's demand as a representative of Israel's far right to recognize Israel as a "Jewish First" Nation before he will allow any peace negotiations to commence is a bid to continue that discrimination, and many would argue that Netanyahu's demand is designed specifically to prevent peace negotiations from happening.


The following article details how a number of laws in Israel encourage and perpetuate racism and discrimination:

http://www.cjpme.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DO=795&RecID=149&DocumentID=219&SaveMode=0

Here is a few selections from the article:

Israeli Legal Discrimination against its Palestinian-Arab Citizens

The Adalah Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel to the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination found 17 laws of which are discriminatory on their face, in that they either relate only to the rights of Jews in Israel or abridge the rights of Arab citizens of the State and 3 laws which use neutral language and general terminology but have a discriminatory effect on Arab citizens.

Constitutional Equality
There is no provision in Israeli law for the concept of constitutional equality. It is absent from The Basic Law: Human Dignity and Freedom, which since 1992 has served as Israel’s constitutional Bill of Rights.

Military Service
The Israeli Government uses military service as a requirement for various public benefits. Given that the vast majority of Palestinian-Arabs are not allowed to serve in the Israeli military, this requirement camouflages as a racist policy. This limits the ability of many Palestinian-Arabs to receive “housing loans preference in public employment, and financial aid for university study.”

Education
The Israeli education system is based on the State Education Law of 1953. This Law established a system of schools designed to meet the explicit demands of the Jewish community. The objectives the Israeli education system as explicitly stated in Article 2 of this Law are to exclusively advance Jewish culture and Zionist ideology.

Discriminatory Curriculum
...As no autonomous educational
system has been established for the Arab community, Palestinian students are subjected to an educational curriculum which has been developed by and for the Jewish population: e.g. Arab students are expected to spend more time studying the Torah than their own religious texts...

Discriminatory Funding for Education
While nearly 1/3 of all Jewish students have received support from governmentfunded enrichment programs for impoverished students, Arab students are not eligible for these programs. In fact, there is no funding for educational enrichment programs for Arab students in Israel. Also, government funded pre-schools do not operate in Arab towns or villages, and more than half of the tens of
thousands of Arab children with special needs are denied access to appropriate classes or schools.

Political Participation
Election to the Israeli Knesset (Parliament) is limited by 2 laws which require political parties to accept the “existence of the State of Israel as a state of the Jewish people.” In practice, these laws dictate that a political party calling for full equality of the Palestinian-Arab community in Israel may be disqualified. In order to become a politician of the Knesset, a Palestinian politician is forced to essentially negate her/his
own identity, history and entitlement to equal rights.

Unrecognized Arab Villages
Approximately 100,000 Palestinians in Israel (10% of the Palestinian population) reside in villages which have been deemed “illegal” by the State and therefore cannot be found on any map, have no local council or government representation, and receive no government services such as: health facilities, running water,
connection to a sewage or electricity network, safe access to major roads, postal services, connection to telephone network, adequate education facilities, environmental upkeep and security. These villages are known as “unrecognized villages” and total 45 in the Naqab/Negev Valley and 9 in the Galilee. Most of
these communities existed prior to the establishment of Israel and their residents continue to struggle to survive as citizens of a state that denies them their most basic rights and needs.

In 1965 the Knesset passed the Planning and Construction Law, a national plan for future development. Dozens of Palestinian villages were denied official recognition by this discriminatory law and therefore excluded from development planning schemes.23 Overnight, all buildings in these “unrecognized” villages became retroactively “illegal” and “unlicensed” and therefore subject at any moment to demolition. At the same time, planning authorities were given the right to plan projects on these lands, establishing exclusively Jewish settlements on the remains of the villages.

Land Confiscation
There exists in Israel a multi-faceted framework of laws and military regulations which have granted the State the legal authority to confiscate Palestinian land and property. In addition to legal manipulation, Arab citizens of Israel are faced with a number of administrative practices to limit their use of the land, including discriminatory national planning and zoning regulations, as well as forced evictions and housing demolitions.

.......................................................

These are just some of the laws set up specifically to encourage the discrimination against Palestinians and Israeli Arabs. Read the article, and many others for more information and detail. Although, this may not help, as it looks as though your opinion has a lot more sway over your perceptions than the facts do.

I would argue that these racist and discriminatory policies are not conducive for the long term sustainability of the Israeli State in it's current form, and that serious reform that actually works to improve the security and viability of the Israeli State as opposed to the purposefully agititative and inflammatory policies of Netanyahu and Likud.

Israel needs to support leaders who are working to improve and better Israel instead of supporting leaders who just make their situation worse off like Netanyahu has done.
 
I don't think Skeptic's plan envisions only annexing the 1% of the West Bank, that the settlements actually occupy. He wants a lot more than that. :)

Skeptic and his compatriots would probably want to annex all the areas in purple & pink, and give the Palestinians/Jordanians all the rest.

Clearly, such a solution is totally unacceptable.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=492&pictureid=4588[/qimg]

a much more just and common-sense solution, would be to instead let the Israelis annex just the purple areas, and give the Palestinians/Jordanians everything in white & pink.

Yes, such a solution would mean many dots of Israeli sovereignty within a much larger Palestinian State. But this is the bed the Israelis have made for themselves, by building their settlements in such a way. Nothing prevented them from putting ALL of their settlements into regular-shaped blocks, on the border with Israel. So let them sleep in their bed.


..or they can just go home to Israel.

I will miss Thunder...

I did not agree with his overly confrontational debate style, and his abuse of the 'report' feature did give the mods adequate reason to ban him as he was already on "probation," but this thread will be a lot less substantive without him...
 
I think they should show some ability to be peaceful and get along well with others. Did you read the survey results that Mycroft posted a couple days ago?

Ah yes. The UN would certainly come down hard on a Palestinian state if they continued to attack Israel. :rolleyes:

No, they'd continue to be Israel's problem...

So what should be done than??


Here was my solution to the problem:

Solutions:

1) Palestinians could accept an Independent State that is supported by Jordan for a set period of 30 years. This deal would include Jordan helping to develop the Palestinian infrastructure, a plan for Jordan to help strengthen economic development in the Country, and Jordanian support for internal security. In exchange, Jordan would be given monetary compensation by the International community.

This compensation to Jordan would not only include direct aid, it should also include the building of desalinization plants for Jordan. Jordan is currently buying water from Israel to maintain it's water shortages, and new Forward-Osmosis desalinization technology have shown a lot of promise for being able to produce more efficient and productive plants. By including a deal that would supply water for the West Bank and Jordan, this deal would strenghen the long term National security and economic security of the Jordanian State, and this would go a long way towards convincing King Abdullah that this plan would be in his best interests.

2) By allowing the Palestinians to have their own state that is supported by Jordan, it would give considerable Palestinian support for this plan. As long as the number of Israeli settlements was kept to a low percentage as Thunder mentioned, than this deal would cause a much larger percentage of Palestinians to be supportive and protective of the peace in order to preserve their new State. Thereby creating a powerful new deterrent to radical groups like Hamas.

3) Jerusalem is the hard one. Many Palestinians would never accept the plan if this was not allowed to be their capital, but it could not be their functional capital. As hard as this would be for both sides to accept, Jerusalem would have to be the Capital of a future Palestinian State in name only, with Ramallah serving as the functional capital. This would allow the Israelis to maintain control over Jerusalem, but would allow the Palestinians to accept the deal.


While this deal would be hard for both sides, it is something that could work, and as we are barreling closer to September with the Palestinians unilaterally declaring their own State, the consequences of not finding a solution are much worse.
 
These are just some of the laws set up specifically to encourage the discrimination against Palestinians and Israeli Arabs.
I can't make heads or tails of that list. Why does that site use Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians interchangeably? They are not the same people. Israeli-Arabs are Israeli citizens. Palestinians are not, and in many cases are hostile foreigners at war with Israel. You may as well claim the US is discriminatory, since the Taliban are not allowed to serve in the US military and therefore are unable to receive VA benefits, housng benefits, preferential placement in government jobs, and college tuition.

It's an absurd argument.
 
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So what should be done than??


Here was my solution to the problem:
I find it ridiculous that Israel should pay anything to Jordan, a country which tried and failed 3 times to destroy Israel. They should not be rewarded for their belligerence.
 
Was Thunder banned?

Christmas comes early.

Regarding the list, it is not true that Arabs aren't allowed in the military.

"Canadians For Peace and Justice" look pretty fruit-loop to me.
 
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Regarding the list, it is not true that Arabs aren't allowed in the military.
That list dumps Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians into the same category, for the sole purpose of claiming Israeli discrimination.

I guess demanding that Israel give non-citizens the same rights as citizens is another example of the double standard "higher standard" for Israel.
 
So Israel discriminates against Hamas?

That group supports Iran. I don't trust them.

http://www.cjpme.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=1569&SaveMode=0

Hey HoverBoarder, you've got to be careful where you get your facts from. Many of those "Palestinian Solidarity" groups are fronts for Marxist-Leninist parties. And Marxist-Leninists are about as anchored to reality as Young Earth Creationists.
 
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So Israel discriminates against Hamas?

That group supports Iran. I don't trust them.

http://www.cjpme.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=1569&SaveMode=0

Hey HoverBoarder, you've got to be careful where you get your facts from. Many of those "Palestinian Solidarity" groups are fronts for Marxist-Leninist parties. And Marxist-Leninists are about as anchored to reality as Young Earth Creationists.
are you claiming that cjpme is a front for Marxist-Leninists??
 
are you claiming that cjpme is a front for Marxist-Leninists??

It doesn't appear to be. They support Iran and claim that the Palestinians have no desire to destroy Israel or any support for Islamism.

No point listening to people who fail to see rudimentary facts.
 
It doesn't appear to be. They support Iran and claim that the Palestinians have no desire to destroy Israel or any support for Islamism.

No point listening to people who fail to see rudimentary facts.
In what way do they "support Iran" they say that the canadian government is right to condemn Irans poor Human rights record and its persecution of pro democracy advocates..Is that the sort of support you are talking about?
 
Once more, we see that HoverBoarder tries to give criticism of what Israel is doing wrong (although I think his sources here are biased), while what bothers The Fool is the very fact that a Jewish state exists now. HoberBoarder's post deserve more detailed reply, but I think we have here again a good example about what kind of criticism is legitimate and what is simply hatred of Israel's very existence.
 
I can't make heads or tails of that list. Why does that site use Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians interchangeably? They are not the same people. Israeli-Arabs are Israeli citizens. Palestinians are not, and in many cases are hostile foreigners at war with Israel. You may as well claim the US is discriminatory, since the Taliban are not allowed to serve in the US military and therefore are unable to receive VA benefits, housng benefits, preferential placement in government jobs, and college tuition.

It's an absurd argument.

I agree the list deliberately confuses these two groups, but there *is* a real issue about rights of Arab-Israelies who do not serve in the military are not allowed to do certain things which require such service.

In fact there is a big discussion about this in Israel, with many people (myself included) thinking that there should be no service in government bodies, etc., to which military service is *required*, but it is fair that veterans receive *benefits*.

It is really a matter of money: to say (hypothetical example) "those who don't serve in the army cannot get a mortgage" does not cost the govrnment money, while "those who serve will get government help in getting a cheaper mortgage" does.
 
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Once more, we see that HoverBoarder tries to give criticism of what Israel is doing wrong (although I think his sources here are biased), while what bothers The Fool is the very fact that a Jewish state exists now. HoberBoarder's post deserve more detailed reply, but I think we have here again a good example about what kind of criticism is legitimate and what is simply hatred of Israel's very existence.

I don't hate Israel's very existence. I support a two state solution. Apparently that means I want all Jews in Israel killed.
 
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while what bothers The Fool is the very fact that a Jewish state exists now.
no.... Never held this belief, never stated it. You are simply trolling. Just trying to find out what the term "jewish state" means. Apparently it means a place where there is not difference betweenthe way the state treats jews and non jews.....so why bother with the name? May as well call Israel the Muslim state.
 
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