Merged Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth - (Part 2)

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With regards to dogmatic atheism, that was a comment on the rampant response I got in comparison with my posting on other threads.

Well you were wrong weren't you. This is a thread about evidence, not speculation.

That atheists often defend this fringe theory to the death can feel like one is up against dogma,

Except we're not defending a "fringe theory," we're asking for evidence. There is nothing "fringey" about that. If it felt dogmatic too you, that simply shows that you don't understand the difference between Exegesis and actual Evidence.

even though a shrug of the shoulders and "ok, Jesus probably existed" changes absolutely nothing about the probable non-existence of God.

Except "probably" isn't evidence, which is what this thread is about.

I don't get what you mean when you say Jesus' existence was "only likely". Isn't that sufficient? it has no major implications, just as the likely existence of anyone else from the time period changes nothing.

Not on this thread!

If a letter is found from, say, 20AD, which says "yesterday I went round to Joseph the tax collectors house and we ate some tasty tasty unleavened bread". I would say ok, there likely was a tax collector called Joseph... The letter could be faked, so I am not sure, but vehemently denying the existence of Joseph the tax collector seems a bit of a pointless and unwarranted stance to take.

Except most people on this thread are not doing that. Finding a letter from Joseph the Tax Collector is not equivalent to finding texts telling a story about Joseph the Tax Collector a hundred years after the fact.

Not to mention that we have no such letters from Jesus saying "I overturned some tables today and killed a fig tree."


GB
 
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I guess you're implying that something can only be known if it can be proven? That's really just a philosophical game that I am not interested in playing.

Demanding evidence is not a "philosophical" game (we're looking for forensic evidence). And if you're not interested in that, you really should be on another thread.


GB
 
Which of the things I said are you doubting?

No one can be this thick. It's an act, right? In case you're serious, or maybe you just can't see my highlighting on your screen -

"Probably" and "claims" and "seems" do not describe evidence. They describe conjecture. This thread is about evidence.
 
I know, I was being a bit flippant. I was referring to the 7 undisputed Pauline Epistles, and included Colossians as well, which could well be genuine. Would you say the degree of randomness involved with finding these letters is an important factor regarding the likely truth of any off the cuff comments found within? (comments such as the eating bread with Joseph the Tax Collector one I made up above.)

You mean the 7 disputed Pauline Epistles don't you? Many of the Biblical Scholars you like think that some of the letters weren't written by Paul.


GB
 
I don't get what you mean by "instead of referring to books". I haven't been referring to books very much at all.
I can't find it now, but someone asked you to post evidence, and you said (I'm paraphrasing, so apologies if I get it wrong) "I don't understand; whaddaya want me to post; my arguments would be the same as books X and Y by these biblical scholars."

Which prompted posts like this one:

No, I actually prefer DOC. DOC may have presented pitiful excuse of so called evidence that was debunked in 30 seconds or just flat out lies for jesus but at least he produces something.

Phelix on the other hand posted 0 evidence so far.

DOC may have posted various appologetic crappy sources that were easily debunked as crap or flat out lying for jesus, but at least he gives some sources and their reasoning (even though he doesn't bother reading them).

Phelix keeps rambling on, but has again presented 0 arguments from his sources.

I actually prefer DOC

You claim to have "evidence" from "sources," but you are keeping it secret from us here. Usually only the resident theosophists do this, and at least they patronize us by saying that it's too deep for us to understand.
 
The next time anyone brings up the Criterion of Embarrassment, I think I'll start a thread with the subject line "Evidence for why we know the creators of Marble Hornets told the truth."
 
Oh goodness I hope people didn't take too much from that. It is my view that Luke thought he knew an eyewitness, not necessarily that he did know one.

No! We don't take anything from that! Especially as you keep giving credence to DOC's theory that Luke was actually written by Luke.


GB
 
I can't find it now, but someone asked you to post evidence, and you said (I'm paraphrasing, so apologies if I get it wrong) "I don't understand; whaddaya want me to post; my arguments would be the same as books X and Y by these biblical scholars."

Which prompted posts like this one:



You claim to have "evidence" from "sources," but you are keeping it secret from us here. Usually only the resident theosophists do this, and at least they patronize us by saying that it's too deep for us to understand.
Hmmm. Whenever I've made some point regarding the texts, I've always specified which part of the NT, I'm referring to. For the most part that's all that's needed. With regards to the books, I'm guessing the two books will have been John Meier's "A Marginal Jew" and Bart Ehrman's historical introduction textbook. The latter pretty much covers the critical historical approach. The former is more about the model I tend to side with more often than not.
 
Is this thread going to double in size because a new guy is claiming to have evidence that the blahblahblah? Because if that's the case I'm gonna suggest we have pizza parties more frequently than every 20k.
 
Hmmm. Whenever I've made some point regarding the texts, I've always specified which part of the NT, I'm referring to. For the most part that's all that's needed. With regards to the books, I'm guessing the two books will have been John Meier's "A Marginal Jew" and Bart Ehrman's historical introduction textbook. The latter pretty much covers the critical historical approach. The former is more about the model I tend to side with more often than not.

Again, I'm really starting to wonder if this is an act.

Don't refer to the New Testament at all. That's not how you prove it's true. Do you understand? If that was how one ascertained truth then I could quote Jason Bourne to explain how The Bourne Supremacy was true.

Regarding the books you cited, if there is any evidence for the truth of the New Testament stories in them, perhaps you could post it here? In the thread about evidence for the veracity of the New Testament? All you do is cherry pick parts that "seem" true to you. Why not post some evidence?
 
No one can be this thick. It's an act, right? In case you're serious, or maybe you just can't see my highlighting on your screen -

"Probably" and "claims" and "seems" do not describe evidence. They describe conjecture. This thread is about evidence.
You're picking up on certain words rather than addressing the arguments.
With regards to the statements on "claims" and "seems":
Luke claims to have an eyewitness source. Indeed he does, right on page one "Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,"

With seems, my claim was that the stories from source L seem to be public declarations. Indeed they do. For the parable of the prodigal son, the scribes and pharisees are nearby (Luke 15). For the parable of the good samaritan, he is speaking to around 70 people (Luke 10).

Would you dispute either of the claims made?

With regard to probably, I am a-ok with that word. All historical evidence ever tells us is what probably happened.
 
The people he was writing to didn't exist? That's a bit of a strange one. What on earth would have been the purpose of the writing, if almost everything contained within has no intended recipient, while the writer claims it does. Was the letter to the philippians not really a letter to the philippians? Was polycarps letter to the philippians meant for them? And what of the Roman Christians? did they not exist? Did Pope Linus not exist? This is an absolutely ridiculous stance where early christianity doesn't exist.
Strawman.
Do you understand the difference between a personal letter and a sermon?
These aren't personal letters, they're sermons to be read aloud to a congregation.
Big difference.
You'll recall my suggestion these Epistles are NOT a private correspondence.
They are sermons and even contradict Acts, as Ehrman points out.
Useful?
I think not.
Of interest to a biblical scholar, certainly.
Evidence the NT writers wrote the truth?
No


As for "Sermons not having value" you are correct, if that is all the letters were. Paul saying various things about how to achieve salvation are of little interest, but we have letters, there is more available than that. We can find out what Paul was up to, what sort of philosophical circles Paul was moving in, where Paul was lecturing, who he was spending time with, and so on. Also, once we accept that the recipients exist (sigh) we can deduce what some of the problems were for the early church, by looking at the issues Paul addresses.
But it isn't evidence.
This thread doesn't deal with the early church, in case you hadn't noticed.



Propaganda for what exactly? Many of the claims regarding authorities and law have been shown to be correct. Much of the book is just an inconsequential account of how various churches were set up. The speeches all sound the same, which is a bit suspicious, but ultimately if Acts is propaganda it achieves very little.
For propagating and afirming the faith of those of his curch.
In any case, it's nothing near evidence for the truth of the NT, is it.
The history of the early church would be better dealt with in a thread dedicated to that subject.



I don't understand what you mean? The sources we have available are what I used. With the arguments I gave, it seems likely that the gospels provide additional information about John the Baptist. What exactly were you wanting?
It seems likely?
Please stick to the subject of the thread.



Nobody claims to have been an eyewitness. I was arguing the common position that Luke thought he had an eyewitness for certain stories told by Jesus. The reasoning is that Luke claims to have an eyewitness source, even though two of his sources, mark and Q, were written down. The third source for Luke seems to recount stories in which Jesus is in a public place. For that reason, I think it's likely that an unnamed source (or sources) for Luke claimed to be an eyewitness.

Is this really the best you can offer by way of evidence the NT writers were telling the truth?
Speculation, inference and supposition?
I think you'd be better off in the threads which deal in those things.
This one deals with evidence the NT writers were telling the truth.
Over 500 pages.
No evidence.
 
Again, I'm really starting to wonder if this is an act.

Don't refer to the New Testament at all. That's not how you prove it's true. Do you understand?
No that's nonsense. Try proving the validity of the battle of hastings sources... without using the battle of hastings sources...
If you rule out every available source, then how can any argument be made at all?
All I've been doing is applying the historical method to the sources available. What sort of argument would you expect me to make?

Regarding the books you cited, if there is any evidence for the truth of the New Testament stories in them, perhaps you could post it here? In the thread about evidence for the veracity of the New Testament? All you do is cherry pick parts that "seem" true to you. Why not post some evidence?
We're back to using the word "cherry pick" again. History is not cherry-picking. It is method to find what is likely to not be true (Jesus saying "he who is without sin cast the first stone") and finding what is likely to be true (John the Baptist worked in the river Jordan).
 
The third source for Luke seems to recount stories in which Jesus is in a public place. For that reason, I think it's likely that an unnamed source (or sources) for Luke claimed to be an eyewitness.
I'll step on a bit Carlitos' toes with this post but the highlighted parts are where you keep going off the rails.

So we're in a culture of oral tradition. Not many literates are around but everybody likes a good story. Good story tellers like a good, admiring audience...and maybe he can convince the rubes that he's really special. So, over time, the story gets, well, embellished just a tad. It's not a lie, mind you, but there's definitely some, er, spin, to use a modern term. One very likely type of spin is claiming to more closely connected to the main characters in the story than is actually the case. Exhibit A is: "Hey, I really knew that guy."

So, when we flog the "evidence" dead horse and you keep giving us stories such as the above, it is hard to understand why you remain so obdurate.
 
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