Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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RoseMontague,

I see it a little differently. Amanda's diary refers to her feeling safe in prison (I don't recall the exact quote). I am not quite sure to which statement Fiona refers when she talks of volunteering a statement. I think she was trying to convey her confusion in her handwritten note (if it were, then she succeeded completely). Of course, a more fundamental problem for the pro-guilt community is that she did not name Guede if her intention was to portray herself as a terrified bystander. I have never been able to understand their position on this question.

The PMF theory of the interrogation, this part based upon Mignini lying about his involvement and assuming the police were strictly adhering to Italian law, was that from 1:45 until shortly before 5:45 Amanda was locked in the room and when Mignini arrived insisted on giving a 'spontaneous' declaration to him, her 'right' under Italian law. Thus it wasn't preceded by any more questioning, it was truly 'spontaneous' which is the only way it might still have been considered admissible by the Court, which ruled otherwise anyway. They knew better... ;)
 
If Woody Allen ran the Polizia di Stato

This 'psychoanalysis' is all getting very confusing.

The options are .... forgive me if I have missed any

Waterboarding
Concussion ( from 2 cuffs to head)
Concussion ( from cartwheels )
Concussion ( recurring since a childhood fall)
Convulsions
Trying to help the police
Injected False Memories
Internalised False Confession
Confusion
Hypoglycemia
Stoned - grass
Flashback from really good grass
Acting out a scene from '12 Angry Men'

& there is one other obvious one

Perhaps we need the input of that statement analysis blogger. IIRC his/her work was much discussed and maligned here (never looked at it myself) but it might be just the ticket.
 
What makes you think Candace Dempsey is a food blogger?

From reading this thread - It was either an Italian translator (unlikely as she didnt speak Italian) or a food blogger.

Pretty sure it was a food blogger - something about an Italian table.

Or maybe a carpenter ?
 
This 'psychoanalysis' is all getting very confusing.

The options are .... forgive me if I have missed any

Waterboarding
Concussion ( from 2 cuffs to head)
Concussion ( from cartwheels )
Concussion ( recurring since a childhood fall)
Convulsions
Trying to help the police
Injected False Memories
Internalised False Confession
Confusion
Hypoglycemia
Stoned - grass
Flashback from really good grass
Acting out a scene from '12 Angry Men'

& there is one other obvious one

Perhaps we need the input of that statement analysis blogger. IIRC his/her work was much discussed and maligned here (never looked at it myself) but it might be just the ticket.

Wouldn't it be easier if the cops just coughed up the tapes? Until then all we can do is try to piece together what might have happened from the available material.

Incidentally, why don't you tell us what you think happened? Or better yet, advance the argument the police testified to in court?
 
Wouldn't it be easier if the cops just coughed up the tapes? Until then all we can do is try to piece together what might have happened from the available material.

Incidentally, why don't you tell us what you think happened? Or better yet, advance the argument the police testified to in court?


No, lets not get sidetracked with the Watergate thing - this is obviously an important issue as the lengthy list attests to.

Which do you think ?
& Is it time to call on the statement analysis dude ?

ps Did I miss any ?

ETA I did miss one - Amanda being Amanda, some sort of quirky Seattle thing.
 
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No, lets not get sidetracked with the Watergate thing - this is obviously an important issue as the lengthy list attests to.

Which do you think ?
& Is it time to call on the statement analysis dude ?

ps Did I miss any ?

Here's a more interesting question:

She was in there for seven hours, how many of those do you think could be true at the same time? That is, a combination of factors?

Oh, and of course you missed a few, other forms of coerced 'confessions.'
 
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Here's a more interesting question:

She was in there for seven hours, how many of those do you think could be true at the same time? That is, a combination of factors?

Oh, and of course you missed a few, other forms of coerced 'confessions.'


All of them, for certain values of 'true'.

Hypoglycemia was probably my favourite.
 
This 'psychoanalysis' is all getting very confusing.

The options are .... forgive me if I have missed any
Waterboarding
Concussion ( from 2 cuffs to head)
Concussion ( from cartwheels )
Concussion ( recurring since a childhood fall)
Convulsions
Trying to help the police
Injected False Memories
Internalised False Confession
Confusion
Hypoglycemia
Stoned - grass
Flashback from really good grass
Acting out a scene from '12 Angry Men'

& there is one other obvious one

Perhaps we need the input of that statement analysis blogger. IIRC his/her work was much discussed and maligned here (never looked at it myself) but it might be just the ticket.

__________________

Platonov,

You missed this laughable option:

Trying to transfer guilt from herself to an innocent Patrick.

(Amanda knowing that Patrick was working in a public place the night of the murder. Did you know that Patrick's attorney was able to find a dozen witnesses to attest to Patrick's presence at his bar?)

///
 
From reading this thread - It was either an Italian translator (unlikely as she didnt speak Italian) or a food blogger.

Pretty sure it was a food blogger - something about an Italian table.

Or maybe a carpenter ?


You might find this reference helpful. Candace is not a food blogger and she does speak Italian.
 
This 'psychoanalysis' is all getting very confusing.

The options are .... forgive me if I have missed any

Waterboarding
Concussion ( from 2 cuffs to head)
Concussion ( from cartwheels )
Concussion ( recurring since a childhood fall)
Convulsions
Trying to help the police
Injected False Memories
Internalised False Confession
Confusion
Hypoglycemia
Stoned - grass
Flashback from really good grass
Acting out a scene from '12 Angry Men'

& there is one other obvious one

Perhaps we need the input of that statement analysis blogger. IIRC his/her work was much discussed and maligned here (never looked at it myself) but it might be just the ticket.


I think RWVBWL has always had a good handle on what that night at the Questura was all about for Amanda and Raffaele: "On the flip side of the coin, I also do not understand how any person guilty of even the slightest participation in a brutal, bloody murder would answer the phone call from the police late at night, or even head over there while under the influence of THC. Why not tell the police you can not come in tonight but will do so tomorrow? Surely a guilty person would have been slightly suspicious of all the questioning the police were putting Raffaele and Amanda under. But yet they did head over to the questura, and did answer questions, unrecorded, late at night, while stoned, without a lawyer present..."

Personally, I think that if Amanda was shaking, it was because she had a panic attack.

Yeah, let's get the statement analysis guy over here. I already know what he's going to say -- Water = sex. Anyone who thinks, writes or says the word "waterboarding" is revealing their preoccupation. Shame on you, platonov. :p
 
You might find this reference helpful. Candace is not a food blogger and she does speak Italian.


Helpful :)

Cezanne predated Dempsey surely - are you implying she was his inspiration. Retrocausality issues again I'm afraid.

Oh she may no longer be a food blogger ? - last (& first) I heard she was trying to make a buck off a rape/murder victim. Distasteful, but there is a market for that kind of thing apparently.

As for the Italian proficiency - well if now true ? then self improvement is to be applauded.

Anyway this is irrelevant - unless she knows what kind of cakes were served.
Other than that ....
 
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mixed DNA in Filomena's room

I would like to add one more thing about the luminol-positive regions in Filomena's room. Charlie Wilkes and I had a dialog about some extra alleles in Sample 177 here. It is not anywhere near a full profile, but the presence of a third person's DNA (not Raffaele) raise the question of how this person's DNA came to be part of sample 177. If it were deposited innocently, then it adds weight to the notion that Amanda's DNA was also deposited innocently.
 
I would like to add one more thing about the luminol-positive regions in Filomena's room. Charlie Wilkes and I had a dialog about some extra alleles in Sample 177 here. It is not anywhere near a full profile, but the presence of a third person's DNA (not Raffaele) raise the question of how this person's DNA came to be part of sample 177. If it were deposited innocently, then it adds weight to the notion that Amanda's DNA was also deposited innocently.

I always liked the theory, advanced by Charlie Wilkes if I recall correctly, that it's just where the incompetent clods destroying the crime scene polizia scientifica dropped some samples.

So forty-some days later they come back and voila! Evidence against Amanda! :eek:
 
The "Confession" is certainly one thing that doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me. Even reading all three, the two "confessions" and the "gift", anyone that says that the police should have not only accepted them as real events, but actually acted on them really are kidding themselves.

The second major issue with it for me is that there is absolutely no reason for Amanda to accuse Patrick, and a lot of reason not to. She knew that he was at the bar and so would have an alibi, and anyone claiming that she was trying to protect Rudy then has to explain why she had already sold him out by taking the cops directly to his DNA in the toilet instead of flushing it. In fact if the piloce are to be believed, she and Raffaele spent a lot of time removing their traces and leaving Rudy's all over the place in what could only be a plan to place the blame on him, and then with the perfect opportunity to do just that and knowing that all the forensics is going to come back to him, Amanda coldly and rationally goes out of her way to not do it? That makes zero sense.
 
I disagree. Without the context available perhaps I'm misreading it, but I get the impression it is suggesting that it was all an act to pretend to victim status to misdirect them so they'd let her out of there. Then she continues the act in her note trying to keep her options open? Something like that?

Then why didn't she give them a believable story? What they have in those statements is gibberish, useless to police (in reality) yet who actually said it corroborated what they knew about the crime. I think there's a gross misunderstanding by some of the power relationship in that room, Little Miss Cartwheels wasn't running the show! The police have to be satisfied with what they get, it has to be believable to them. They're assuming she's lied before, they're going to be on the lookout for more 'lies,' unless they get what they think is a plausible explanation of events they're not going to go away. Especially if the plan is to arrest her and Raffaele, then race right out and drag Patrick away while he's feeding his baby, work him over nice-n-pretty, get virtually nothing from him--then parade through Perugia in an ostentatious display and announce 'case closed.'

There had to be something in those statements that compelled them to believe her. The 'staged break-in' goes entirely unmentioned, the moment of the murder is a blank, outside the text message there's nothing connecting it with a timeline, she doesn't even 'hear' the scream, they have to dodge that with her suggestion she must have had her ears covered. 'Fine. We'll write that down. Fine.' Nothing corroborates except if they thought Patrick was the murderer for reasons previously discussed here and the thread in the Conspiracy section.

Now, I also think it possible that Amanda never totally believed the entire suggestion that were trying to implant in her mind, that she met Patrick, went to the house, covered her ears etc, however in the stress and confusion of the moment they convinced her it must have, or that saying she thought it probably happened was her only way out of an impossible situation. My interpretation of the testimony is that all she really got were some 'flashes' of imagination that at some point she thought were possibly real memories, which was the only way at that moment to square what the cops were telling her about Raffaele and the 'hard evidence' with reality. Then they walked her through it and she balked at just about everything which is why they ended up with so little of value--but they had the part they wanted and figured they'd find 'proof' of the rest with the forensics.

Only Amanda knows for sure, and considering her ordeal and what she endured it would be churlish to assign blame to her. For those that might, they should ask themselves if they're currently claiming to be 'afraid' of posting on a heavily moderated thread because a dozen people might pounce on their posts and assemble characters in formation that make up mean words that disparage their arguments. Amanda had a dozen cops going at her for hours, and then again hours more, people with authority, that could deprive her of food, water, and just being able to go the bathroom. They weren't just disparaging what she was saying, they were employing real 'personal attacks,' crowding her personal space, and even started hitting her. That she signed a statement that agreed with what they insisted must have happened is on them not on their victim, Amanda Knox.

As for the note, not only the handwriting reveals the unlikelihood of her being concussed, but also I believe that note suggests she was thinking rationally. However, she had three pieces of information that just didn't fit and she was trying to figure out what could be the truth of the matter, as well as try to organize her thoughts by writing, which was her way according to other information available about her. She also seemed to figure she could get it across better with the written word as they weren't really listening and the translator wasn't really translating. Thus as the experience fades she starts to realize the 'flashes' are probably just imagination, but how does she square the 'hard evidence' and what she's heard from the cops that Raffaele said, with her memories of that evening which weren't exactly set in stone to begin with being as she was just enjoying being young and a little bit naughty and hardly watching the clock?

As another recent example of the method of ILE madness is the Scazzi case. Now I haven't spent as much time on that as you have, Rose, but as I recall it they got him to admit to being the murderer, and then kept after him to implicate his daughter as well? In other words he didn't come up with that, they insisted upon it as I recall, then televised the whole thing according to Barbie Nadeau? Then he recants it as soon as he sees a lawyer? Something like that? I suspect that something similar happened with Amanda Knox, that they pushed Patrick on to her, and eventually she did end up signing those statements, but in her case they'd actually managed to implant a few false memories that it took her a little while to totally realize were completely false.

I have never been convinced in the false memory theory. I believe they pressured her to accuse Patrick, she was scared and buckled under the pressure thinking they were going to charge her and agreed with what they wanted her to say thinking she could then go home. At this point I believe she probably thought the cops were right about Patrick. If she were guilty she would have given them more details that actually corresponded to the crime. She didn't know any details that only a killer or accomplice would know because she was not there. Fear and panic can cause people to make bad decisions. My opinion is that is what happened and her handwritten statement is an attempt to explain her statements in a way that the cops would believe she didn't have any idea if what she said was true or false and she could still go home.

There is really no way to know for certain either way. My reading of many false accusations show some are false memories and some are just coerced statements knowing what they were saying was false. Amanda made some bad decisions and she said some things that were not true. I am certain she is innocent but that does not mean I think she is perfect.

Just my opinion.
 
Confessing to Crime, but Innocent

I believe what happened to Amanda has similarities here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/us/14confess.html?hp

“I beat myself up a lot” about having confessed, Mr. Lowery said in a recent interview. “I thought I was the only dummy who did that.”

Mr. Lowery took a lie detector test to prove he was innocent, but the officers told him that he had failed it.

“I didn’t know any way out of that, except to tell them what they wanted to hear,” he recalled. “And then get a lawyer to prove my innocence.”

Proving innocence after a confession, however, is rare. Eight of the defendants in Professor Garrett’s study had actually been cleared by DNA evidence before trial, but the courts convicted them anyway.

He has trouble putting the past behind him. “I was embarrassed,” he said. “You run in to so many people who say, ‘I would never confess to a crime.’ ”

He does not argue with them, because he knows they did not experience what he went through. “You’ve never been in a situation so intense, and you’re naïve about your rights,” he said. “You don’t know what you’ll say to get out of that situation.”
 
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“iv. The footprint evidence revealed by luminol in the hall and Filomena's room.” Fiona wrote, “These were bare footprints and there is no explanation as to why they would be in Filomena's room: there is no reason Knox's dna is mixed with the substance and the scientists say they can tell blood from other stuff revealed by luminol.” My understanding is that there are two amorphous blobs, not footprints, in Filomena’s room. There is also a luminol-positive area in Raffaele’s kitchen (sample 101), containing the DNA profile of an unknown male, among many luminol-positive spots, most of which do not contain DNA. The results from Raffaele’s apartment suggest that finding luminol-positive areas in a home is not a rare event, something that Dr. Gino’s testimony also supports.

Luminol is a presumptive test for blood, not a confirmatory test, and there are substances known to produce false positives. The lack of Meredith’s DNA in samples 178-180 (footprints in Amanda’s room) and the lack of either Meredith’s or Amanda’s DNA in 181-182 and 184 (footprints in the corridor) do not support the notion that the luminol-positive substance is blood. The samples that did give positive DNA results were tested with TMB, and the TMB tests were negative.

The footprints do not form a complete trail, and the three in the hallway are all right feet, IIRC. In addition, I think that all of the evidence (both DNA and luminol, and against Rudi as well as the other two) that was collected on 18 December deserves to be held in lower esteem that the evidence collected earlier for two reasons. First, non-forensic personnel had been in the house, tossing Meredith’s room, for example. Their actions might have transferred biological samples from one room to anotherSecond, by this time all three suspects were in custody, and the chances of unconscious forensic bias are thereby raised.
[/B]

This is a good point. Regardless of what they said about changing gloves and shoe coverings the fact is that some of these people walked from one room to another without changing from what I can see. After the mop was wrapped did they change shoe coverings before taking it into the murder room? Maybe somebody that has the video handy can tell me.
 
I have never been convinced in the false memory theory. I believe they pressured her to accuse Patrick, she was scared and buckled under the pressure thinking they were going to charge her and agreed with what they wanted her to say thinking she could then go home. At this point I believe she probably thought the cops were right about Patrick. If she were guilty she would have given them more details that actually corresponded to the crime. She didn't know any details that only a killer or accomplice would know because she was not there. Fear and panic can cause people to make bad decisions. My opinion is that is what happened and her handwritten statement is an attempt to explain her statements in a way that the cops would believe she didn't have any idea if what she said was true or false and she could still go home.

There is really no way to know for certain either way. My reading of many false accusations show some are false memories and some are just coerced statements knowing what they were saying was false. Amanda made some bad decisions and she said some things that were not true. I am certain she is innocent but that does not mean I think she is perfect.

Just my opinion.

I don't think she's perfect either, but if she'd have just 'buckled' my guess is she would have given them something that makes a helluva lot more sense. She certainly could have done better than that if it was intentional. In that situation, who'd think to do that and how in the hell could they pull it off under that much stress? They get real confessions out of hard-bitten criminals that way, ones that put them into jail for the rest of their lives, in some places a one-time appointment with ol' sparky. I just cannot see a girl barely out of her teens enduring all that, all those hours in that room under those conditions and then deciding to try such a convoluted stunt, when all she had to do was give them a 'real' story.

There was also all the elements there for a false-memory/internalized false confession, and she wasn't responsible for them, the police did that part. They definitely were pretending they had the 'hard evidence,' they'd hold that CCTV tape over her head for a while, and Raffaele's Matteini Report statement was real as well. There's the admission from Giobbi about the scream, and I think the translator also admitted to trying to 'help' her remember, which is more corroboration. The time she was in there is pretty easy to determine, from the 10:39 PM phone call with her saying the police are approaching which corresponds to when Raffaele's statement is being typed up which would suggest they'd want to talk to Amanda postehaste, to the 5:45 AM statement.

That would have been one helluva performance too, in front of people who already thought her behavior 'suspicious.' She had to have been convincing and sincere, that was rough crowd she would have been 'performing' in front of! Without the 'anchor' of her 'flashes' keeping her to 'vaguely and confusedly not actually remembering the murder,' it would have been damned tough under those conditions not to stray into what they really wanted. What they would have wanted, was of course, more information about the murder scene itself, even if she was just cowering in the kitchen. You'd think they'd have wanted more detail, like time estimates of how long he was in there, when he left, that she actually heard the scream, why suggest the bit about covering her ears when they asked her about the scream?

It was reading that note in full for the first time which caused me to realize just what had happened to her, and having gone through all the evidence and all the Cartwheels threads as well as vast swaths of PMF it all came to me. I don't think anyone could or would want to fake that, even to people like Rolfe with familiarity with miscarriages of justice it made her look like a 'fruit-loop.' Maybe I'm just a sucker, but up until that moment I was still trying to 'prove' her guilty, I had a checklist and everything! I read that all the way through, and it was 'Aw...geez, I know what happened here.'

I think it would be an incredible coincidence were there to be basically all the elements present for a false memory syndrome leading to a type of internalized false confession, with the contemporaneous verification of the note, yet it all turn out to be the foiled plotting of a girl barely out of her teens. Especially when if she was in control of the situation enough to give them so little and get away with it, why didn't she just clam up and demand a lawyer?

At any rate it could also have been that they scared the piss out of her and then didn't let her go to the bathroom. I can just see it now: 'Yep-Patrick-did-it-hash-BB court-sex-murder-covered ears-I dunno 'bout Raffaele-shaking head...now will you lemme go potty please?!
:D
 
I believe what happened to Amanda has similarities here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/us/14confess.html?hp

Professor Garrett said he was surprised by the complexity of the confessions he studied. “I expected, and think people intuitively think, that a false confession would look flimsy,” like someone saying simply, “I did it,” he said.

Instead, he said, “almost all of these confessions looked uncannily reliable,” rich in telling detail that almost inevitably had to come from the police. “I had known that in a couple of these cases, contamination could have occurred,” he said, using a term in police circles for introducing facts into the interrogation process. “I didn’t expect to see that almost all of them had been contaminated.”

As I noted in the last post, it's reasons like this that I believe her on this. It seemed they did everything they could to 'contaminate' the confession, try to lead her through it step-by-step even, yet they didn't get what they must have wanted. They got her to say that she must have been there, but they couldn't get any extrapolation, she seemed to me to stick to the bare skeleton of the flashes she mentioned, and just didn't go further except on very minor points.

It is 'funny' though, reading through this and realizing just how clueless those cops in that police station were about the actual crime that occurred. With this and the other cases I've seen looking into this one, I wonder just how much of the 'technique' of ILE depends on getting some poor schmuck into the backroom and giving them the third degree?
 
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how do juries perceive a coerced confession

Kaosium originally found this link to the article, “Police deception during interrogation and its surprising influence on jurors' perceptions of confession evidence," by Krista D. Forrest and William Douglas Woody. I posted the quote below before, but I think it bears on the question of whether or not Massei should have let the two trials run concurrently.

"According to Kassin and Neumann (1997), jurors relied on confession evidence more than other forms of evidence (italics added). Of greater concern is the finding that even if jurors rated a confession as less voluntary and believed that the confession did not affect their decisions, these jurors were still more likely to convict than jurors who did not read confession evidence (Kassin & Sukel, 1997)… In Arizona v. Fulminante (1991), however, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the mistaken admission of a coerced confession into the trial could comprise a harmless error that does not increase the risk of a mistaken conviction and is therefore subject to a harmless error analysis. This ruling rests on the assumption that jurors can recognize and reject a coerced confession, even though empirical findings contradict this assumtion (Kassin & Sukel, 1997)." highlighting mine.
 
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