Orange Juice Placebo?

I just tried a google of <emg cramps>

An EMG = Electro Myo Gram, it checks the central nervous system electrical signals to the muscles.

First hit:
http://jap.physiology.org/content/88/5/1698.full

Conclusion was that the nerves are not sending signals, but the the cramp may initiate very close to the muscle if not in the muscle fibers them selves.

So as I interprete the gist of this thread so far, RSL's 'cure is most likely placebo. His cramp would go away in about as long as it take Mrs. RSL to get the juice any how.
 
Dave asked me to comment on his posts. And they seem similar in idea to what Joey McGee brought up earlier, as well.

If we are looking at what sorts of mechanisms can account for immediate effects, it pretty much has to be neurologic - whether perception is altered (such as endorphin release) or whether nerve signals are sent (or interrupted) which modify what is going on in the muscle. Even hormonal responses take longer than described. And remember that very little of the orange juice is absorbed in the stomach - a little water is about it. Some glucose, if present, will be absorbed in the stomach, but that's because it's a mono-saccharide. Most sugars are in the form of disaccharides and have be to split into mono-sacchrarides by enzymes in the small intestine in order to be absorbed. And you need the right receptors. Same goes for other substances in the OJ, such as potassium. So anything which depends upon absorbing something from the OJ will take much, much longer to work than what was reported.

There is a limit to how much physiological change we want to see in response to smell, taste or expectation. After all, if we are wrong, we can be much worse off than we were before (even dead in the case of hypoglycemia). And if we are right, the best we can achieve is a beneficial effect a few seconds or minutes before it was going to happen anyway. So the evolutionary pressure for this would be slight.
We already have a lot of good knowledge about the body's responses to starvation and subsequent re-feeding. And this situation doesn't apply in Robert's case anyway. We do see some physiological responses to taste when it comes to preparing the GI tract for digestion. And those responses differ depending upon taste (fats vs. sugars, for example). We get immediate responses in the reward center for tasting something sweet (and interestingly we seem to be able to distinguish between artificial sweeteners and sugars).

You would have to explain how muscle cramps serves as a useful strategy to correct some deficiency, though. If anything, it will prevent activities which might correct the problem. The only real benefit is to stop someone from continuing to exercise when their muscles are ill-prepared.

Linda

Thank you for the clarification and wisdom, Linda.

I reckon I picked up a few facts and ran with them - in this case a bit too far - and ended up out-of-bounds.;)

Thanks for the help.

Cheers,

Dave
 
I just tried a google of <emg cramps>

An EMG = Electro Myo Gram, it checks the central nervous system electrical signals to the muscles.

First hit:
http://jap.physiology.org/content/88/5/1698.full

Conclusion was that the nerves are not sending signals, but the the cramp may initiate very close to the muscle if not in the muscle fibers them selves.

So as I interprete the gist of this thread so far, RSL's 'cure is most likely placebo. His cramp would go away in about as long as it take Mrs. RSL to get the juice any how.

While I agree that it is most likely placebo (and said as much in the OP), I disagree on it being a "it would have stopped in that amount of time regardless" thing.

There are times when I call out for the OJ as soon as the cramp sets in. there are times I try to "tough it out" for as long as ten minutes before calling out for it. And the times it takes for Susan to bring it varies widely: Sometimes she is in bed with me when I ask her to get the OJ, and she has to walk all the wy to the kitchen to get it. other times she is in another room, even in the kitchen, when I call out, and so brings it much quicker. In our previous home, it usually took far longer, as our bedroom was upstairs, the kitchen downstairs.

Yet, in ALL of these various permutations, the cramp stops after a few swallows of the OJ, no matter the length of time passed between the onset of the cramp and my drinking the OJ. To me, this points to the drinking being what stops the cramp, but quite likely for reasons totally in my head.
 
Just Another Random Thought::D

Could the O2 / CO2 / pH / Phosphate / Nutrient / Waste (uric acid?) / etc. levels be responsible?

Any way these could be changed quickly enough by the Ingestion (of the liquid) / Posture Change / Respiration rate change / body (muscle) movement / Circulation Systolic-Diastolic / Flow changes - Involved in the "waking up and sitting up and drinking liquid" ritual - explains anything?




I SAID it was a Random thought...:D

Dave
 
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Just Another Random Thought::D

Could the O2 / CO2 / pH / Phosphate / Nutrient / Waste (uric acid?) / etc. levels be responsible?

Any way these could be changed quickly enough by the Ingestion (of the liquid) / Posture Change / Respiration rate change / body (muscle) movement / Circulation Systolic-Diastolic / Flow changes - Involved in the "waking up and sitting up and drinking liquid" ritual - explains anything?




I SAID it was a Random thought...:D

Dave

It was brought up earlier that changes in circulation could be expected to help the cramp, since it will alter local conditions (like you describe).

Linda
 
While I agree that it is most likely placebo (and said as much in the OP), I disagree on it being a "it would have stopped in that amount of time regardless" thing.

There are times when I call out for the OJ as soon as the cramp sets in. there are times I try to "tough it out" for as long as ten minutes before calling out for it. And the times it takes for Susan to bring it varies widely: Sometimes she is in bed with me when I ask her to get the OJ, and she has to walk all the wy to the kitchen to get it. other times she is in another room, even in the kitchen, when I call out, and so brings it much quicker. In our previous home, it usually took far longer, as our bedroom was upstairs, the kitchen downstairs.

Yet, in ALL of these various permutations, the cramp stops after a few swallows of the OJ, no matter the length of time passed between the onset of the cramp and my drinking the OJ. To me, this points to the drinking being what stops the cramp, but quite likely for reasons totally in my head.

It could be endorphin release, since this is a well-established effect.

I thought dakotajudo's links were interesting and potentially relevant, though (as a neurally mediated reflex).

Linda
 
And then I tried just sitting up, as I do to drink the OJ), and there was no cramp relief. So, although my sitting up may play a role in this, it does not appear to be the entire thing.

BTW, I have had no leg cramps since I had the heart attack. It seems likely this is at least in part due to my change in diet (I've probably eaten more fruits and vegetables in the past two days than in the previous ten years!), but - who knows? Perhaps elevated Creatine Kinase levels are a cure for leg cramps! :D
 
Crap. My own leg cramps are back. Three times last night. They went away while walking to the sink to get a glass of water.

But they did make me think about them. I figure that since they usually come in the night, while the brain shuts down neuro connections to the body, they must have something to do with the lack of those small signals that preserve muscle tone. So I'm guessing those little jolts from the nerves must serve the purpose of enhancing muscle micro-circulation. (darn it, two words I can't think of- one for the brain/body shut off when asleep, the other for the little signals)

So something like those transdermal muscle stimulators ought to prevent the cramps. Maybe they would also prevent my restless legs?

My cramps came back concurrently with eating tacos daily for the last four days. Maybe something in corn throws my chemical balance off ? Corn is rich in phosphorus I think. I'll be back in a moment, going to nutritiondata.com

eta: Ok, lots of phosphorus in corn, magnesium too, not so much calcium. So maybe more milk with my tacos?

But also, corn is high fiber. Maybe the fiber slows the absorption of some nutrient?

Of course my imbalance might be different from RSLs.
 
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BTW, I have had no leg cramps since I had the heart attack. It seems likely this is at least in part due to my change in diet (I've probably eaten more fruits and vegetables in the past two days than in the previous ten years!), but - who knows? Perhaps elevated Creatine Kinase levels are a cure for leg cramps! :D

No, CKs don't prevent cramps. Mine are usually 600-800 from myopathy. And cramps abound.

But what drug changes did the medicos make after the heart attack? Anything that might effect muscle micro circulation, or those little back ground nerve signals?

Cramp relieve was an off-label use for quinine. I wonder if there is a quinine analog in something we eat? So, cut that from our diets, cramps happen? Cut back on your daily rutabaga have you? ;)
 
Sleep studies show the muscle tone signals stop during REM sleep. http://thesleepcycle.com/sleep-basics/measuring-sleep/

REM sleep happens at the end of the normally 90 minute sleep cycle. I think cycles are longer at first, shorten as the nigh wears on. So, do our cramps happen on that cycle? I do believe mine did last night. Bed time 9:15, first cramp at 12:30, second cramp didn't time, last one at 5:20. I believe the cycles get shorter as delta sleep shortens?

So, less REM = less cramps?, and cramps probably cut off the REM when you awaken from the pain. REM is very important, we don't want to eliminate it to prevent cramps.

But I have seep apnea too. Perhaps my cramps are an indicator that my apnea is better, that I am getting into a normal sleep cycle? And conversely, RSLs cramps went away after his heart attack because his sleep cycle is ow disturbed? Feel sleepy lately RSL?
 
So cramps would be caused by a by-product of muscle cell restoration? An imbalance cause by said restoration? Something that is put back into balance by the 'micro exercise' of the muscle toning caused by neurological signals? ?
 
Just chiming in here - I get cramp from time to time myself. Some of the worst pain I have ever experienced, to be honest.

As counter-intuitive as it seems at the time, the quickest 'fix' for me is to NOT sit up in bed, but to as quickly as possible, stomp the cramping leg/foot on the floor. That invariably stops the cramping / spasming. You think it would kill you to do this while you're dealing with the cramp, but for me, it is the quickest way to dissipate the cramp.

I wonder if there is any hereditary indicator that suggets you are prone to night time leg cramps? My dad used to suffer from them horribly, as did his own father (as he reports). On my mom's side of the family, this problem was unheard of.

-AH
 
Just chiming in here - I get cramp from time to time myself. Some of the worst pain I have ever experienced, to be honest.

As counter-intuitive as it seems at the time, the quickest 'fix' for me is to NOT sit up in bed, but to as quickly as possible, stomp the cramping leg/foot on the floor. That invariably stops the cramping / spasming. You think it would kill you to do this while you're dealing with the cramp, but for me, it is the quickest way to dissipate the cramp.

You stomp your foot on the floor without sitting up? :confused:

I wonder if there is any hereditary indicator that suggets you are prone to night time leg cramps? My dad used to suffer from them horribly, as did his own father (as he reports). On my mom's side of the family, this problem was unheard of.

Interesting - I just found out yesterday that my brother has them too.
 
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Well slide over to the edge of the bed (so sitting on edge of bed) and stomp foot on the floor. When you said 'sit up in bid' I pictured you propping yourself up against the pillows, as if to watch TV.
 
OK - so you're halfway there! As counter-intuitive as it seems, stomp that cramped leg - instant relief!
 
I wonder if there is any hereditary indicator that suggets you are prone to night time leg cramps? My dad used to suffer from them horribly, as did his own father (as he reports). On my mom's side of the family, this problem was unheard of.

-AH

I performed a cursory search and found no indication of a genetic predisposition for ordinary leg cramps. But I really don't know.

Since your family history indicates all were male (and if you are), the most logical explanation is that men are babies. :p

Sorry. I couldn't resist. :)
 
As soon as I learned (years ago) about potassium helping with leg cramps, I started adding a banana to my cereal every morning. If I don't have it on my cereal, I'll have it for an afternoon snack, or even in a smoothie in the evening. Daily banana = no more leg cramps...ever!
 
I performed a cursory search and found no indication of a genetic predisposition for ordinary leg cramps. But I really don't know.

Since your family history indicates all were male (and if you are), the most logical explanation is that men are babies. :p

Sorry. I couldn't resist. :)

Many times when I've been a baby about a medical procedure (such as an injection), a (usually female) medical practitioner will, when I apologize for being a baby about it, will say something like "it's always the big guys who are the babies."

So Emet, is it your male patients who whimper and whine when you give them an injection, never the female ones?

And, by the way, what, in canines, is the male equivalent of "bitch?" There is "sire", for a male dog who is a Daddy, but that's the equivalent of, what, "dame"? Is there a word which means "male dog", regardless of whether or not he has sired any pups?
 
I wonder if the placebo effect is simply caused by the act of doing something other than thinking about/dealing with the cramp. As you focus on drinking the OJ, you lose some focus on the cramp, relax just a little, and the cramp loosens up.

Just a thought. Not a particularly good one. :)
 

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