Insulting Ad about Nurses by Johnson and Johnson

[Skeptic Ginger]

As has been said several times, there is another equally appropriate way to interpret this. You can say:

• "...the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the lucky charm somehow cheats those odds"

or

• "...the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the nurse's compassion help him feel more secure in a frightening environment and that is helpful and a key benefit nurses provide."

You can choose to focus on the object itself (the lucky charm) or you can focus on the nurse's action (showing compassion for a patient).

So "cheating" refers to compassion? Did you notice that the argument, stacking the deck refers to cheating not good luck charms, is not being equally applied here? Does cheating refer to compassion by a caregiver?

 

[rwguinn]

"If it helps you to wear your hat backwards in a poker game, then it helps"
the statement makes no mention of luck, or anything abnormal. What it does speak to is peace of mind and confidence.
In the case of a patient dropping a "lucky charm", giving it back to him/her is "stacking the deck" insofar as it adds to the peace of mind of the patient.
There is a mental aspect to injury and illness that must be cared for in addition to the physical. That is what the commercial points out. And that is ALL it means, to most reasonable people.

 

[CaveDave]

Again, since you ignored it before. It isn't as if the nurse is shown going to the nurses station and picking up a four leaf charm out of a bin on the counter and then sticking it in the patients hand.
It is clearly shown that the keys fall out of the man's pans when they are moving him.
It's also clearly shown that she's giving it to him after he's been attended to.
I think I could see it your way if during surgery she brought it in etc. It seems the gist of the ad is that nurses are the ones who are there after all the technical things are done and she's going to be there for you in ways that go beyond just the technical part of doing the job.
I've had three kids. And I don't remember the name of my doctors that delivered the babies. But I DO remember the name of the nurses that helped me deliver each of my kids and helped me afterward.

My take on the ad is more about supporting the patient and being compassionate.


I think the juxtapostion of science and "luck" are what is bothering you. If they hadn't used "science" I don't think it would have have come across the same way.

As has been said several times, there is another equally appropriate way to interpret this. You can say:

• "...the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the lucky charm somehow cheats those odds"

or

• "...the science-based medicine gives him certain odds, but the nurse's compassion help him feel more secure in a frightening environment and that is helpful and a key benefit nurses provide."

You can choose to focus on the object itself (the lucky charm) or you can focus on the nurse's action (showing compassion for a patient).

Exactly. And to me if the nurse had brought in the lucky charm herself then you could see it the first way. But the ad goes to the trouble of being sure you know it's HIS charm.
The fact that it is attached to his keys.

So, your message is that scientific medicine is inherently dehumanizing? The nurse's compassion isn't "stacking the deck" to improve the outcome, but rather, a way to avoid completely forgetting that the patient is a human being at all? Interesting try, but seems to me your change makes it a lot worse. "Come join us, you can be the one who occasionally reminds us patients are human because as practitioners of scientific medicine we tend to forget that most of the time."

That's what I mean when I say, crafting that kind of ad is not easy. Respectfully,
Myriad

Good points above, I think.

They do. Massively. And lots don't understand the science behind what they do. Get over it. Nurses are the twitchiest, most immune to criticism group of people I've ever worked with, and I was raised by an RN who was a great example of a compassionate, caring nurse, so I went into working at the hospital expecting to love them... just recently, a nurse left some pamphlets from Kevin Trudeau in the breakroom on the ortho floor.

It's just a fact that nurses are a superstitious lot, and insisting they're not isn't gonna help much.

I haven't seen it to THAT extreme, but I worked in a Catholic Hospital and I did see my share of superstition...

If "stacking the deck" by using a lucky charm is meant to represent compassion, then it once again supports the idea that it is uncaring to withhold tacit approval for false beliefs.

So not everyone sees this. That doesn't really help Skeptic Ginger and other nurses. Regardless of whether everyone follows this logic, some people do. It is yet another example of how we apologize for false beliefs with the excuse that they are comforting. I'm not sure that this reflects badly on nurses specifically, or just people in general. It could be taken as "I'm a nurse so I use science, but I'm also human so I will expect comfort from false beliefs." If it reflects badly on nurses, it may be only by saying that despite their training, nurses fall victim to their biases like anyone else. Except, of course, most people don't see themselves as victims.

It doesn't surprise me that this doesn't annoy others who aren't health professionals and aren't used to dealing with this. Admittedly, some of this nurses bring on themselves. But it takes a lot of vigilance for those who consider themselves professionals to be seen as such. On that note, the character of Rory on this latest season of Dr. Who is a positive portrayal as a nurse, I think.

Anyway, I was more annoyed by the idea that comfort comes from false beliefs, not from evidence-based beliefs, than annoyed that this was being attributed to nurses specifically. But I'm not going to have quite the same perspective as Skeptic Ginger and I wouldn't chastize her for worrying about how it reflects on nurses.

Linda

You make good points,too, Linda.

Perhaps I need to moderate my position...

Is it okay if a patient already terrified by some medical calamity that's befallen them, is further stressed -- and by "further stressed" I don't mean a little concerned, I mean totally convinced they are now fated to die -- by being lodged in Room 13? Their belief that the room number could make a difference or foretell their death is of course false. Does that mean there would be no failure of compassion in refusing to cater to their false belief by numbering the rooms differently, or at least moving the terrified patient to a different room on request?

Yes, it absolutely is uncaring, extremely and obviously so, to withhold tacit approval for such false beliefs under such circumstances.

The clover in the ad is a bit less clear, because the patient was not actually asking for it. But he was carrying it in the first place, so rudimentary knowledge of human nature is sufficient to surmise that he would be very likely to appreciate the gesture of putting it into his hand and extremely unlikely to object to it.
If you came upon a critically injured accident victim on a deserted road, and while waiting for the ambulance (let's say, after you'd rendered all possible first aid) he asked you to pray for him, would you refuse?
Is it really possible to be so dogmatic about not approving (not even tacitly!) of false beliefs that the moral answers to these questions are not obvious?

Respectfully,
Myriad

I would NOT refuse; I would swallow hard and do it for their comfort, but that's just me...

Years ago a good friend (of the "Jesus Freak" flavor of hippies) gave me a cross on a chain: I wore it because it made him feel good, even though I had made it clear I had no belief in "Sky Daddy". Refusing it would have served no purpose other than to hurt him.

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think a patient lying in intensive care fighting for his life is the best time to start the argument.

Cheers,

Dave

 

[Sherman Bay]

So that 4-leaf clover thingy is a lucky charm? It obviously didn't work, bigtime. Get rid of that evil talisman!

 

[madurobob]

So "cheating" refers to compassion? Did you notice that the argument, stacking the deck refers to cheating not good luck charms, is not being equally applied here? Does cheating refer to compassion by a caregiver?

"Cheating the odds" was not my choice of terms, but those of the poster I responded to. In common usage "stacking the deck" does not have to mean "cheating", but rather anything that can tilt the odds in one's favor. I "stack the deck" in my dissertation by knowing the professional passions of my committee members and playing to those passions where possible in my dissertation and its defense. That's not cheating; that's using emotional intelligence.

But "cheating" is nothing more than a red herring here. The real issue is whether the ad is promoting woo or showing that compassion is an important part of nursing and a trait highly valued by patients (contrast this with many people's views of doctors - cold, clinical, uncaring). The ad showed us a scenario where a harried ER nurse took the time to show compassion for her patient. Yes, that is intended to play to our emotions and not our intellect, and yes, the choice of a good luck charm as a vehicle for that compassion may not have been the best, but the message the ad sends is not that nurses are woo-prone, but rather than nurses care. For the most part I think the ad works.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I would have seen the ad as saying supporting the patient's beliefs mattered if the words echoed that. "Stacking the deck" says cross your fingers, keep a rabbits foot, pray, yadda yadda. It doesn't say what the other commercials in the series say, "nurses care" or a message to that effect. For example, there's another commercial in the same series about a hospice nurse and a dying woman who believes one opens the window to let a dying soul out. The nurse says, "Not tonight Berta" Clearly the nurse is responding to the patient's beliefs, not agreeing with them in that commercial.

I'm not really sure how that is responsive to my post. I was just laying out my thoughts on why some scientifically proficient people I know who are in the medical field are also very prone to magical thinking. I believe it helps them deal with the emotional trauma. Take it or leave it, it was prefaced with the word anecdote.

But, to your larger complaint: I've seen several of these videos now and taken as a whole I think they show the profession in a very positive light. Given this "body of work" I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Either that, or I would have to assume that J&J is portraying nurses as ageist because one made a joke about the younger buddy being the patient's father or sexist because the one assumed that girls require singing to get through a scary procedure.

Argumentum ad absurdum? Yep. Once you gloss over the fact that the nurse "stacks the deck" by merely returning the patient's key chain, you've moved the argument to that arena. The ad shows an act of compassion just like all of the other ads in this series not a magical incantation interrupting the care of the patient. To take this one ad to task so severely seems a bit out of context to me.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....
The patient was made irrelevant in the commercial. This was an action the nurse took upon herself to perform.
....

Right. For some reason it is crucial to present skepticism as though it is cruel and uncaring while false beliefs are not.

Linda

The patient's belief and the nurse supporting the patient are not the problem. The dilemma of supporting a patient's false beliefs vs addressing them is a difficult but separate issue. Though I must say I find that second comment intriguing.

I am particularly aware of media messages, especially media messages that portray the image of nursing. You've read some of my posts on the science of nursing. The media image of nursing has been damaging to our profession for a long time. Like the media portrayals of blacks and Native Americans, it's well known how problematic the media image of a group can be.

Image overhaul - Media still are off-target portraying nurses

The 1997 Woodhull Study on Nursing and the Media, conducted by Sigma Theta Tau International, found that nurses were severely under-represented in print media, including in comprehensive coverage of health care. Of 1,153 health care stories in 16 major newspapers, only 11 carried references to nurses, the study found.

Television didn’t do much better with its first episode of "Hopkins 24/7," either. Purported to be a reality-based show about "people at the core of medical care," the episode had more footage of physicians, patients and organs than nurses.

Nursing’s Image in the Media:

For many of my 30 years as a nurse I wasn’t concerned about inaccurate media images of nursing as I believed these images were harmless, after all, many were just in jest. But as a nurse like you who is committed to new learning everyday, I realize these inaccurate portrayals negate our educational advances in the eye of the public.

Here's one the guys will appreciate.

Naughty nurse and other stereotypical images add to the chronic underfunding of nursing research, education and clinical practice. This is because health care decision makers--many of whom are sadly uninformed about what nursing really is--are less likely to devote scarce resources to a profession that has become so degraded in the public consciousness. ...

Then there are the images that support false beliefs over science. This ad has both, a message that nurses accept a superstitious charm "stacks the deck", and that the superstition has the power to influence beyond science. While I understand the different perception people here have when they view the ad, I am surprised the message that superstition has the power to influence beyond science is not more disturbing to people.


-

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Wow.
So much bitterness toward things that are of no consequence...

Wow, so much lack of awareness of the impact of media portrayal of a group.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

"If it helps you to wear your hat backwards in a poker game, then it helps"
the statement makes no mention of luck, or anything abnormal. What it does speak to is peace of mind and confidence.
In the case of a patient dropping a "lucky charm", giving it back to him/her is "stacking the deck" insofar as it adds to the peace of mind of the patient.
There is a mental aspect to injury and illness that must be cared for in addition to the physical. That is what the commercial points out. And that is ALL it means, to most reasonable people.

So your claim is the charm actually does "stack the deck" beyond science based medicine?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So that 4-leaf clover thingy is a lucky charm? It obviously didn't work, bigtime. Get rid of that evil talisman!

 

[fls]

Yeah, when my friend had breast cancer and was going through chemo, some people made a point of telling her they were praying for her. I brought over suppers for her family instead, so I missed my chance to show compassion.

Linda

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
But "cheating" is nothing more than a red herring here.

I totally agree. I was trying to point that out. You've labeled it correctly.

...The real issue is whether the ad is promoting woo or showing that compassion is an important part of nursing and a trait highly valued by patients (contrast this with many people's views of doctors - cold, clinical, uncaring). The ad showed us a scenario where a harried ER nurse took the time to show compassion for her patient. Yes, that is intended to play to our emotions and not our intellect, and yes, the choice of a good luck charm as a vehicle for that compassion may not have been the best, but the message the ad sends is not that nurses are woo-prone, but rather than nurses care. For the most part I think the ad works.

One man's ceiling is another man's floor.

As is now being repeated in the thread, I see the message that the charm stacks the deck and the compassion is shown but not what the 'stack the deck' comment refers to. Others see the compassion as the thing that is stacking the deck. I would add that since the patient is apparently unconscious, he would be unaware of the compassionate gesture, leaving the superstitious gesture as the means of stacking the deck.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not really sure how that is responsive to my post. I was just laying out my thoughts on why some scientifically proficient people I know who are in the medical field are also very prone to magical thinking. I believe it helps them deal with the emotional trauma. Take it or leave it, it was prefaced with the word anecdote.

I don't deny it, I was objecting to the stereotype magical thinking predominates in nursing compared to say, matched controls. People are superstitious. I wouldn't expect nurses to be more or less so and I was objecting to the unsupported claim they were more so than other similar groups of people.

But, to your larger complaint: I've seen several of these videos now and taken as a whole I think they show the profession in a very positive light. Given this "body of work" I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Either that, or I would have to assume that J&J is portraying nurses as ageist because one made a joke about the younger buddy being the patient's father or sexist because the one assumed that girls require singing to get through a scary procedure.

Argumentum ad absurdum? Yep. Once you gloss over the fact that the nurse "stacks the deck" by merely returning the patient's key chain, you've moved the argument to that arena. The ad shows an act of compassion just like all of the other ads in this series not a magical incantation interrupting the care of the patient. To take this one ad to task so severely seems a bit out of context to me.

I conclude the message which concerns me is one J&J was unaware they were sending. That is common with communication. People are often unaware of unintended messages in the things they say. For example, it took a long time to get nurses to quit saying, "I'm just a nurse". They didn't recognize the message "just a" communicated.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I conclude the message which concerns me is one J&J was unaware they were sending. That is common with communication. People are often unaware of unintended messages in the things they say.

That seems fair. If I were on a board reviewing these spots I would not have seen the message the way you did and I would have likely approved of the message with an understanding similar to some others who have posted here. You would have not approved the message because you would have seen it very differently. And yet, J&J may have intended a third meaning altogether.

But I do think you can get an inkling of what they meant in this spot by comparing it to the campaign as a whole. That is all.

For example, it took a long time to get nurses to quit saying, "I'm just a nurse". They didn't recognize the message "just a" communicated.

Yeah, that would really get my goat.*



*Not intended to be an endorsement of what others here may or may not do when getting a goat for either scientific or entertainment purposes. Please call your doctor if the "goat" lasts more than four hours.

 

[fls]

The patient's belief and the nurse supporting the patient are not the problem. The dilemma of supporting a patient's false beliefs vs addressing them is a difficult but separate issue. Though I must say I find that second comment intriguing.

It does look like I might be saying that, but I didn't mean to. I didn't get the impression that the nurse was meant to be guessing at the patient's beliefs and giving them tacit support. She seemed to be acting on her own beliefs when a talisman came to hand (the finding of his keychain). I'm just more sensitive to the idea that science doesn't include care and compassion and that the removal of false hope is cruel, and you're more sensitive to the idea that the nurse lets superstition creep into her care. Plenty of fodder for annoyance (minor or otherwise).

Have you contacted any advocacy groups for nurses about this?

I am particularly aware of media messages, especially media messages that portray the image of nursing. You've read some of my posts on the science of nursing. The media image of nursing has been damaging to our profession for a long time. Like the media portrayals of blacks and Native Americans, it's well known how problematic the media image of a group can be.

Image overhaul - Media still are off-target portraying nurses
Nursing’s Image in the Media:
Here's one the guys will appreciate.


Then there are the images that support false beliefs over science. This ad has both, a message that nurses accept a superstitious charm "stacks the deck", and that the superstition has the power to influence beyond science. While I understand the different perception people here have when they view the ad, I am surprised the message that superstition has the power to influence beyond science is not more disturbing to people.

-

Well, you have to remember that responses here will represent a biased sample. Specifically, you may just be seeing people who will take an opportunity to disagree with you. Don't generalize from this sample.

Linda

 

[AmandaM]

Lucky charms stack the deck. That implication is the issue I have with the ad.

I am not a medical professional. When I saw the ad, long before I saw this thread, the bolded part above is EXACTLY what I thought they were trying to get across. I even mentioned to my husband that pretty soon they'll issue rabbits' feet when you're admitted.

Both of us thought the ad reflected negatively on the medical profession in general.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

It's just a fact that nurses are a superstitious lot, and insisting they're not isn't gonna help much.

This would have made "The Phantom" EVEN BETTER.

"Nurses are a cowardly, superstitious lot."

In 1525, pirates nurses capture and destroy a ship off the coast of Africa. That ship belongs to Christopher Standish. The nurses kill Standish, and when his son Kit later finds the skull of his father's murderer, he swears an oath upon it that he and his descendants will devote their lives to "the destruction of Candy-stripers, LVNs, cruelty and bedpans." Kit Standish aka "Walker" becomes The Phantom!

 

[madurobob]

One man's ceiling is another man's floor.

I s'pose that makes sense to you city folk with your fancy skyscrapers

As is now being repeated in the thread, I see the message that the charm stacks the deck and the compassion is shown but not what the 'stack the deck' comment refers to. Others see the compassion as the thing that is stacking the deck. I would add that since the patient is apparently unconscious, he would be unaware of the compassionate gesture, leaving the superstitious gesture as the means of stacking the deck.

Yup. I think I mentioned early in this thread that I could understand your position. I don't share it, but I can understand it. The ad is subtle enough in my eyes that I find it hard to get riled up about.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It does look like I might be saying that, but I didn't mean to. I didn't get the impression that the nurse was meant to be guessing at the patient's beliefs and giving them tacit support. She seemed to be acting on her own beliefs when a talisman came to hand (the finding of his keychain). I'm just more sensitive to the idea that science doesn't include care and compassion and that the removal of false hope is cruel, and you're more sensitive to the idea that the nurse lets superstition creep into her care. Plenty of fodder for annoyance (minor or otherwise).

Fascinating (if you'll forgive the over generalization): You are in a profession where care and compassion are less within the image and I'm in one where science is less within the image. I totally get where you are coming from. I've learned from your perception of the compassion aspect in medicine. I'm curious if you've learned from my perception of the science aspect in nursing.

Have you contacted any advocacy groups for nurses about this?

Oh, I've been active off and on over my career in promoting the image of nursing. I believe I even played an historical role when along with a small group of nurses we established the right of nurses to act as independent contractors in this state. Believe it or not this was not a given for nurses, (not nurse practitioners who have been autonomous in this state since first licensed). If you mow lawns you can be your own boss. But as professional nurses, we literally had to go to court to establish the fact our profession was collegial and not subservient to medicine. But I digress....

 

[shalomsteph]

I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science.

I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.

That's exactly what I was going to say. Compassion is huge in nursing...if it were a photo of his wife or kids, it would be saying the same thing, and I imagine if a photo of his wife or kids (or dog, for that matter) was the first thing he saw when he came out of the coma? Hurray for the nurse.