Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RoseMontague]

The audacious, bodacious, and quite capacious
use of the word mendacious
appears to me to be somewhat fallacious,
and could be described as purposely hellacious

 

[RoseMontague]

Doing a bit of more my own background reading on this topic of 'cartwheels'; a topic that indeed that indeed has been long and laboriously discussed here, but again consuming cyberspace, I came across this interesting exchange from last month on another site that involved personalities well known here.

Couple things I came away with about structuring effective arguments, and the current back and forth about cartwheels:

1) RoseMontague is indeed a very much admired arguer for reasons again evident here.

a) when s/he says something is factual, you can pretty much always 'take it to the bank'. You may disagree with the conclusions s/he draws, or the opinions s/he clearly delineates as such, but woe be to the unwary who doubts a fact she states in an argument.
b) s/he does not find it necessary to 'argue' each and every point to the absurdity of having to resort to diversions, pedantry, sophism, and spelling lessons.

Reference the way s/he handles the alleged inappropriateness of Knox's activities during the Memorial for the murdered Meredith, and resolves quickly with a quote from the Judge the quibbling about what Raffaele said.

2) Other much less effective arguers, who find it impossible to ever concede anything or ever admit any error are reduced to the revealing minute of arguing the distinctions between 'good' versus 'close' friendships.

Personally, I learned from the exchange that resulted from 'Cartwheels' and believe others may benefit as well
http://maundygregory.wordpress.com/2011/05/07/amanda-knox-who-breaks-a-butterfly-on-a-cartwheel/

PS:
Please spare us the usual Home Team whines about the site itself.
The exchange is what I emphasize, and could have very well been here.
It has absolutely zero dependence on the site or its moderator.

Excellent blog and a good place for a discussion with both sides participating.
I wouldn't describe it as mendacious.

 

[Alt+F4]

We all know that after Amanda was arrested, and if the Embassy demanded to see her, which even Mignini, could not stop that wish, and saw the state she was in.
Would they not have a doctor from the embassy staff, take a look at her, and also sent a lawyer, just to hear her side of the story.
The action of the American Embassy in in Rome was none.
If the Embassy took action at the early stage, this case would have never went to court.
But there again, as we know, they did not.

You are totally wrong if you think it's the job of an American embassy to provide citizens arrested abroad with a lawyer or a doctor. Do you have any proof that the Amercian embassy in Rome treated Amanda differently than any other American citizen arrested in Italy in 2007?

From the Department of State website:

A consular officer cannot :

- demand the immediate release of a U.S. citizen arrested abroad or otherwise cause the citizen to be released.
- represent a U.S. citizen at trial, give legal advice or pay legal fees and/or fines with U.S. Government funds.​

​

 

[PhantomWolf]

No. On the other hand, how often does someone get accused (and convicted) of murder with there being no evidence against them?

I wouldn't say there was no evidence. On the balance of the evidence in the first trial, I think that there can be made a reasonable argument for guilty, even if there are a lot of leaps of faith involved to get there.

Having said that, unless there is an awful lot more evidence on the table that we haven't seen (doubtful) then I would have been hard pushed to go with guilty in the first trial if I had the time to study what I have since I started reading up on the trial.

Things that stand out from the first trial:

DNA on the knife
Mixed DNA in the Bathroom
Footprints on the hall
Seen outside the cottage that night
Staged break-in
Computers didn't support alibi claims

All of these have come under serious attack, and they may fall in the appeal court like the testimony of them being outside the court did, and the DNA is rumoted to be going too, but till the evidence is introduced into court and stands on its own, then I'm not willing to call the result of this trial. They may yet prove evidence that will convince me of guilt in this trial.

 

[platonov]

Platonov,

I found the same quote in Forum Community as you did just this morning (it took some searching). Let me take this the opportunity to clarify my incomplete answer to The Central Scrutinizer, but you could have saved me a great deal of time by quoting this offhand remark in the first place. I wrote, “Amanda herself reported that she did not do any cartwheels.” I should have said something along the lines of “Amanda herself said that she did not do cartwheels prior to being approached by a police officer,” or “Amanda indicated that she never did cartwheels until prompted by a member of ILE.” That was my opinion when the issue arose in the first Knox/Sollecito thread over a year ago, and it is pretty much my position today. I believe that she was doing stretches or yoga poses when a police officer came by to chat her up, commenting on her flexibility. Then she did other gymnastic exercises. My reasons for believing so are her testimony and what Frank Sfarzo reported (see below).

Here is something that shuttlt found at Perugia-Shock: “Amanda explained from Capanne that on that evening at the police station, while waiting for Raffaele, she was doing her homework. After a while of sitting she was stiff, she stood up and did some stretching, leaning down with straight legs. There was a young guy from scientific police and he noticed that she could stretch so much. She told him she could go even more and showed him. He asked why she was so good at stretching and she explained she had been doing gymnastic when she was younger. So he asked her if she could do the other things, the cartwheel, the split, the bridge and she showed him.”

With respect to the lack of release of the electronic data files and other forensic files, you have misstated my position and failed to correct yourself despite my pointing out your errors. I am still waiting for you to do so and to make proper amends for distorting my position. I am also waiting for you to answer my questions and comment on the issues that katy_did and RoseMontague have brought to your attention.

The fact that TCS keeps making cartwheel jokes and you keep discussing cartwheels is symptomatic of the misdirection that has been employed throughout this case. Whether or not she did them (with or without prompting) is entirely irrelevant to her guilt or innocence. This trial also featured a witness who saw Ms. Knox buying underwear, an equally irrelevant detail. As long as the discussion is on Knox’s behavior, the hopelessly flawed forensics, ILE’s disgusting misrepresentations of the facts, and the prosecution’s utter failure to turn over the data files are shunted out of the spotlight. The failure to turn over the EDFs and the failure to disclose the TMB results prior to the trial are two of the many things that made the trial of the first instance unfair. I don’t blame the pro-guilt community for avoiding them; it undermines their comments on the unanimity of that court’s opinion.

I will keep it short - 'the cartwheels' were initially in response to your comment on mendacity and refusal to accept a straightforward point, which apparently you still don't accept.
If the cartwheels are of little importance (and they are) why the relentless mendacity and obfuscation on the issue which your arguments have again today exhibited. (see above)

Re searching - When ones arguments are honest and consistent a good memory or revisionist clarifications are not necessary.

As to the rest -
Your posting of a 'Comment' from 'Perugia Shock' which is in complete contradiction to what AK said on the stand is interesting and instructive.
I regard this kind of stuff in exactly the same manner as your arguments on DNA discovery and the contrast with what the defence lawyers have filed makes for a timely analogy.

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium,
If I were a parent, I would be equally concerned with the Scazzi case as the present one.

Waitaminnit!

Did this take place in Raffaele's once and future stomping grounds, Apulia? She was from Avetrana? That's the heel of Italy, that's hell and gone from Perugia.

So why are Walter Biscotti and General Garafano involved? Pure coincidence, or perhaps they follow these high profile cases and inject themselves into them? I must have missed or forgotten the latter was involved, with another brain-dead theory it appears. Perhaps he needs a nickname too, how about The Maggot?

 

[RoseMontague]

Waitaminnit!

Did this take place in Raffaele's once and future stomping grounds, Apulia? She was from Avetrana? That's the heel of Italy, that's hell and gone from Perugia.

So why are Walter Biscotti and General Garafano involved? Pure coincidence, or perhaps they follow these high profile cases and inject themselves into them? I must have missed or forgotten the latter was involved, with another brain-dead theory it appears. Perhaps he needs a nickname too, how about The Maggot?

A review of the 4500 text messages (not kidding) by Sabrina found a quote from Sabrina where she referred to the guy friend as God. It seems this "friend" is now really a boyfriend and lover (according to him) and Sabrina deceived him. He made this statement after lengthly interviews with the cops (my guess is that they shoved this text message in his face).

Hmmmmmmm.

 

[Kaosium]

Most parents would be concerned about the brutal senseless murder of a student and this would weigh on any decision concerning their child’s wish to study abroad, now you and others focus on the judicial process which of course is your choice. My wife and I were very very concerned with our daughters wish to study abroad one year after Meredith was murdered, for us the murder of an innocent young women for no apparent reason was our focus rather than the judicial process in Italy.

My point was in Perugia there's not just the chance your daughter might be killed, she could be one of the ancillary victims as well. If there is no justice, there's no peace either...

 

[zeb]

Embassy act 2

You are totally wrong if you think it's the job of an American embassy to provide citizens arrested abroad with a lawyer or a doctor. Do you have any proof that the Amercian embassy in Rome treated Amanda differently than any other American citizen arrested in Italy in 2007?

From the Department of State website:


[/INDENT]

Yes we are not talking about, drink or drugs, or even spying, we are talking about a young lady who lost her life.
It was up to the American Embassy, to see Amanda, stright away, while sending the Embassy staff to the prison where she was being held, they would have done a criminal check on her, and found that she had only a noise ticket, that was paid the next day, in the court of seattle.
They would also noted that she was an A class student.
By the time the Embassy got to the prison, they would have all the info on Amanda.
The Embassy should have demanded to see Amanda, which your supper man mignini, could not stop.
And if they found that she did not know what time of day it was, they could have taken her out of that jail, right then and there, and took her back to Rome.
thay would not place her on a plane to Seattle, but they would have a doctor look at her, and a real lawyer talk to her

 

[Poppy1016]

Once again I ask what is the embassy required to do in cases like this? What actual power do they have in Italy? It's obvious they did nothing while Amanda's rights were trampled. My question is what could they have done in reality to right the injustice being Perpetrated on AK. Has the embassy been questioned about their lack of assistance?

 

[platonov]

<snip>

a) when s/he says something is factual, you can pretty much always 'take it to the bank'. You may disagree with the conclusions s/he draws, or the opinions s/he clearly delineates as such, but woe be to the unwary who doubts a fact s/he states in an argument.

<snip>

My bank must be more fussy than yours in this regard, pilot.

When they hit the alarm they expect a cop to turn up not an interpreter, no matter how hellacious said interpreter might be

 

[Alt+F4]

Yes we are not talking about, drink or drugs, or even spying, we are talking about a young lady who lost her life.
It was up to the American Embassy, to see Amanda, stright away, while sending the Embassy staff to the prison where she was being held, they would have done a criminal check on her, and found that she had only a noise ticket, that was paid the next day, in the court of seattle.
They would also noted that she was an A class student.
By the time the Embassy got to the prison, they would have all the info on Amanda.
The Embassy should have demanded to see Amanda, which your supper man mignini, could not stop.
And if they found that she did not know what time of day it was, they could have taken her out of that jail, right then and there, and took her back to Rome.
thay would not place her on a plane to Seattle, but they would have a doctor look at her, and a real lawyer talk to her

Sigh....What don't you understand about the fact that a consular officer can not demand the immediate release of a U.S. citizen arrested abroad or otherwise cause the citizen to be released? You were right that they may offer medical assistance but they can't give or pay for legal advice.

 

[zeb]

Embassy act 3

Once again I ask what is the embassy required to do in cases like this? What actual power do they have in Italy? It's obvious they did nothing while Amanda's rights were trampled. My question is what could they have done in reality to right the injustice being Perpetrated on AK. Has the embassy been questioned about their lack of assistance?

I will try to answer your Question, and I am sure LJ will put me right If I am wrong.
The Embassy has a lot of power, and they know they can use it.
The ambassador is just a head, which has no power in the running of the embassy, s/he is there just to say howdy , and make sure American has a good face.
But under the ambassador, there are real people who, do run the Embassy, for the USA state department, and it these people who did not take Action, when Action was needed.

 

[Alt+F4]

Once again I ask what is the embassy required to do in cases like this? What actual power do they have in Italy? It's obvious they did nothing while Amanda's rights were trampled. My question is what could they have done in reality to right the injustice being Perpetrated on AK. Has the embassy been questioned about their lack of assistance?

Here are links to a summary of services provided by U.S. Consular officers to U.S. citizens arrested abroad.

http://studentsabroad.state.gov/emergencies/arrestedabroad.php
http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/emergencies/arrest/arrest_3879.html

In particular note (from the second link):

We can and do monitor conditions in foreign prisons and can protest allegations of abuse against U.S. citizen prisoners when requested to do so. We work with prison officials to ensure treatment consistent with internationally recognized standards of human rights and to ensure that Americans are afforded due process under local laws.

Bolding mine. Has Amanda requested any of this from the State Department?

 

[Poppy1016]

Thank you for your reply Alt

 

[Poppy1016]

I was pretty sure that the power of the embassy is very limited. Is there any evidence that the embassy even reported the violations of Amanda to the state department? I have not seen evidence of this.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

one step at a time

Your posting of a 'Comment' from 'Perugia Shock' which is in complete contradiction to what AK said on the stand is interesting and instructive. I regard this kind of stuff in exactly the same manner as your arguments on DNA discovery and the contrast with what the defence lawyers have filed makes for a timely analogy.

platonov,

Amanda said in testimonial response to a question from Mr. Ghirga, “I went
somewhere a bit outside near the elevator, and I had taken my homework with
me, so I started to do my homework, and then I needed to do some "stretching",
so I did some "stretching", and that's when one policeman said something
about my flexibility. A comment.”

From Perugia-Shock, “Amanda explained from Capanne that on that evening at the police station, while waiting for Raffaele, she was doing her homework. After a while of sitting she was stiff, she stood up and did some stretching, leaning down with straight legs. There was a young guy from scientific police and he noticed that she could stretch so much. She told him she could go even more and showed him. He asked why she was so good at stretching and she explained she had been doing gymnastic when she was younger. So he asked her if she could do the other things, the cartwheel, the split, the bridge and she showed him.”

Let’s take this one step at a time. Your summary of her testimony is selective and misleading. Please explain to me what constitutes the “complete contradiction” in these two accounts.

 

[zeb]

Sigh....What don't you understand about the fact that a consular officer can not demand the immediate release of a U.S. citizen arrested abroad or otherwise cause the citizen to be released? You were right that they may offer medical assistance but they can't give or pay for legal advice.

It was up to the Embassy to make sure that Amanda had her human rights under Italian rules.
And yes it is the right for the embassy to Demand, Amada be taken to their care.
And yes your supper man mignini could do nothing to stop it.
Simple and sweet.

 

[Alt+F4]

I was pretty sure that the power of the embassy is very limited. Is there any evidence that the embassy even reported the violations of Amanda to the state department? I have not seen evidence of this.

Has Amanda or her family ever complained about any of the U.S. Consular officers or the Embassy?

 

[platonov]

This two step is over.

platonov,

Amanda said in testimonial response to a question from Mr. Ghirga, “I went
somewhere a bit outside near the elevator, and I had taken my homework with
me, so I started to do my homework, and then I needed to do some "stretching",
so I did some "stretching", and that's when one policeman said something
about my flexibility. A comment.”

From Perugia-Shock, “Amanda explained from Capanne that on that evening at the police station, while waiting for Raffaele, she was doing her homework. After a while of sitting she was stiff, she stood up and did some stretching, leaning down with straight legs. There was a young guy from scientific police and he noticed that she could stretch so much. She told him she could go even more and showed him. He asked why she was so good at stretching and she explained she had been doing gymnastic when she was younger. So he asked her if she could do the other things, the cartwheel, the split, the bridge and she showed him.”

Let’s take this one step at a time. Your summary of her testimony is selective and misleading. Please explain to me what constitutes the “complete contradiction” in these two accounts.

Summary ?

See Link.
You must have forgotten this - It was several hours ago.