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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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Thunder said:
maybe some day, somehow, someone will explain to the rational-world how recognizing a Palestinian state in the West Bank means negating the existence of the State of Israel.
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Not negating: de-legitimizing.

Probably the same way recognizing a Mexican state in southern California would de-legitimize the US. Or recognizing a US state in southern Helmand Province would de-legitimize Afghanistan.

Being told that territory within your zone of control belongs to somebody else is, by definition, a de-legitimization of your sovreignty.

Maybe you think Israel's sovreignty in the West Bank is illegitimate, but that simply means that you're in favor of de-legitimizing Israel by recognizing a Palestinian state in the West Bank. But if you think that de-legitimizing Israel is a good thing, why deny that's what you want? On the other hand, if you think it's a bad thing, why do you want to do exactly that?
 
theprestige said:
Probably the same way recognizing a Mexican state in southern California would de-legitimize the US. Or recognizing a US state in southern Helmand Province would de-legitimize Afghanistan.
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Unlike southern California which is part of the USA...or Helmand Province which is part of Afghanistan, Israel has not annexed & does not impose its civilian law, on the West Bank.

Therefore, recognizing a Palestinian state in the West Bank does not deligitimize Israel in any way.

However, recognizing a Palestinian state in Tel Aviv, Beersheba, or Eilat, WOULD deligitimize Israel.
 
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theprestige said:
Not negating: de-legitimizing.

Probably the same way recognizing a Mexican state in southern California would de-legitimize the US. Or recognizing a US state in southern Helmand Province would de-legitimize Afghanistan.

Being told that territory within your zone of control belongs to somebody else is, by definition, a de-legitimization of your sovreignty.

Maybe you think Israel's sovreignty in the West Bank is illegitimate, but that simply means that you're in favor of de-legitimizing Israel by recognizing a Palestinian state in the West Bank. But if you think that de-legitimizing Israel is a good thing, why deny that's what you want? On the other hand, if you think it's a bad thing, why do you want to do exactly that?
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besides yourself who else claims that Israel has sovereignty over the west bank??
 
HoverBoarder said:
Well it is something that a majority of people who would be affected by future peace negotiations would consider an issue, and even though you see it as not being important and a non-ssue since you say that Israel already provides rights to non-Jewish citizens in Israel, it is still something that would still have to be addressed.
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Here you go again, repeating this as an issue. I don't say that Israel provides rights and freedoms to non-Jews in Israel as mere opinion, its practiced as law in Israel. Perhaps I wasn't clear the first half-dozen times I've stated it. Its NOT an opinion.

This is very important to many people who do not perceive Israel as granting equal rights to all Israeli citizens. Granted, some of that is from the propaganda, but it is still a large perception that many people have of a bias in Israel towards Jewish Israeli citizens. This is part of the reason why there is so much opposition to the wording of Israel as a "Jewish State," because it only feeds those perceptions that Israel is a biased State.
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So we're at the point that this is an issue of your perception of Israel as not granting equal rights to non-Jews in Israel.

My point in using the language in Article 4 of the Palestinian Constituion, is that the same purpose of recognizing Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State can be achieved in a way of phrasing the term that many would see as less inflammatory. It can be phrased in a way that would reduce the perception of those who think that Israel is a biased State rather than increase it.
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And here again, its your perception including the term Jewish as inflammatory.

Perhaps you explain the reasoning, with actual references bound in history, where the PA/Hamas/Palestinian populace in general will be more accepting of Israel if it were to remove Jewish from "Democratic and Jewish state"?

This of course is beyond repeating the same statement as above with such catchy terms as 'inflammatory' and 'biased'.

Not having an official State religion is a very good thing for reducing discrimination. I was just thinking about different ways that you could define Israel as a Jewish State, but making Judaism the official State religion when it is not already would be a step back.
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How so?

Perhaps you could point to me the countries with a listed State religion are automatically classified as discriminatory as well, compared to say a Jewish identity, of those who reside in the country without said State religion.

Sure we can move on, I just have a different opinion on this than you do which is fine. I was also not saying that Israel would have to adopt this as part of a new Constitution. This is just a different way of phrasing the demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish State in a less inflammatory.
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Yes, we do. The big difference is my opinion is based on fact and a long history, whilst your perception of Israel is based on a misconception tied in with the concept of having a Jewish identity attached to a country where it originated from inherently implies discrimination against non-Jews without just cause.

So we are at the point where you can keep repeating the same red herring in relation to it being a hinderance to a two-state solution, or one can address the actual issues at hand.
 
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Thunder said:
The Jordanians have a long-established and respected political system, army, police force, and beauracracy. I trust them much more thaqn I trust the PLO or Hamas.
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Seeing this in a Hoverboarder post as a quote, I just had to laugh.

Another one to add to the pile of ludicrous claims. It surprises me quite how many pegs down Parky and his fellow posters are in having to backup claims such as these and how they are just ignored or accepted at face value.

ie: Jordan (2011)

Pure comedy.
 
bigjelmapro said:
Seeing this in a Hoverboarder post as a quote, I just had to laugh.

Another one to add to the pile of ludicrous claims. It surprises me quite how many pegs down Parky and his fellow posters are in having to backup claims such as these and how they are just ignored or accepted at face value.

ie: Jordan (2011)

Pure comedy.
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You rightly criticize Jordan for its ratings in your link. You are quite justified in being disappointed in a rating of 6 for political rights and 5 for civil liberties...

As you are obviously happy to pay attention to this sites rating for Jordan.....I wonder if you share the same disappointment in Israels rating..... 1 for political rights and 2 for civil liberties?






pure comedy indeed.
 
bigjelmapro said:
Here you go again, repeating this as an issue. I don't say that Israel provides rights and freedoms to non-Jews in Israel as mere opinion, its practiced as law in Israel. Perhaps I wasn't clear the first half-dozen times I've stated it. Its NOT an opinion.


So we're at the point that this is an issue of your perception of Israel as not granting equal rights to non-Jews in Israel.


And here again, its your perception including the term Jewish as inflammatory.

Perhaps you explain the reasoning, with actual references bound in history, where the PA/Hamas/Palestinian populace in general will be more accepting of Israel if it were to remove Jewish from "Democratic and Jewish state"?

This of course is beyond repeating the same statement as above with such catchy terms as 'inflammatory' and 'biased'.


How so?

Perhaps you could point to me the countries with a listed State religion are automatically classified as discriminatory as well, compared to say a Jewish identity, of those who reside in the country without said State religion.


Yes, we do. The big difference is my opinion is based on fact and a long history, whilst your perception of Israel is based on a misconception tied in with the concept of having a Jewish identity attached to a country where it originated from inherently implies discrimination against non-Jews without just cause.

So we are at the point where you can keep repeating the same red herring in relation to it being a hinderance to a two-state solution, or one can address the actual issues at hand.
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you wave your hand and the Home of the jews vanishes.....There is no difference between the treatment of Jew and non jews in Israel...

why then do you bother at all with this "home of the jews" stuff....everyone is treated the same...you virtually demand that everyone accepts it. What is it that Israel does that makes it the home of the Jews if the same applies to everyone?
 
The Fool said:
besides yourself who else claims that Israel has sovereignty over the west bank??
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its cute how the deniars argue that Israel is soveriegn over the West Bank, even though Israel has not annexed the West Bank and does not implement civil law over the West Bank.

its also cute how they argue that recognizing Palestinian soveriegnity over the West Bank, which Israel has not annexed, means deligitimizing Israel itself.

funny stuff huh? let's call it "fuzzy logic".
 
bigjelmapro said:
Seeing this in a Hoverboarder post as a quote, I just had to laugh.

Another one to add to the pile of ludicrous claims. It surprises me quite how many pegs down Parky and his fellow posters are in having to backup claims such as these and how they are just ignored or accepted at face value.

ie: Jordan (2011)

Pure comedy.
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I'm normally with you, but I agree Jordan is better than Hamas and the PLO.

They don't fund terrorists, embrace crazed totalitarian ideologies, shoot rockets at Israel and they're allied with the US. Their close contact with the British gave them a reasonably professional armed forces and civil service (by Arab standards).
 
The Fool said:
As you are obviously happy to pay attention to this sites rating for Jordan.....I wonder if you share the same disappointment in Israels rating..... 1 for political rights and 2 for civil liberties?



pure comedy indeed.
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You kidding? 1 is the best score. Australia is 1 and 1.
 
The Fool said:
You rightly criticize Jordan for its ratings in your link. You are quite justified in being disappointed in a rating of 6 for political rights and 5 for civil liberties...

As you are obviously happy to pay attention to this sites rating for Jordan.....I wonder if you share the same disappointment in Israels rating..... 1 for political rights and 2 for civil liberties?






pure comedy indeed.
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You do realize the lower the number, the more free the country, don't you?

Comedy indeed.
 
The Fool said:
you wave your hand and the Home of the jews vanishes.....There is no difference between the treatment of Jew and non jews in Israel...

why then do you bother at all with this "home of the jews" stuff....everyone is treated the same...you virtually demand that everyone accepts it. What is it that Israel does that makes it the home of the Jews if the same applies to everyone?
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You've been doing this for years, putting out some vague innuendo and presenting it as evidence. It doesn't work that way. If you feel non-Jews are inherently second class citizens in Israel, then it's up to you to make the assertion and provide evidence for it. Making an innuendo and challenging people to prove it's not true is the methodology of conspiracy nutters and truthers.
 
HoverBoarder said:
This is very important to many people who do not perceive Israel as granting equal rights to all Israeli citizens. Granted, some of that is from the propaganda, but it is still a large perception that many people have of a bias in Israel towards Jewish Israeli citizens.
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When perception differs from reality, I don't think it makes sense to try to appease those who's perceptions are wrong. If they're not willing to look at the facts now, they won't be willing to look at the facts after your attempts to appease them either.

All countries should grant equal rights to all their citizens. But if you're going to single out any one country for criticism, the onus is on you to get your facts straight.
 
Virus said:
I'm normally with you, but I agree Jordan is better than Hamas and the PLO.

They don't fund terrorists, embrace crazed totalitarian ideologies, shoot rockets at Israel and they're allied with the US. Their close contact with the British gave them a reasonably professional armed forces and civil service (by Arab standards).
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Sure. I agree with that, but that was only part of the statement. What I disagreed with was the bit in italics. The rest I have no issue with.
 
theprestige said:
Not negating: de-legitimizing.

Probably the same way recognizing a Mexican state in southern California would de-legitimize the US. Or recognizing a US state in southern Helmand Province would de-legitimize Afghanistan.

Being told that territory within your zone of control belongs to somebody else is, by definition, a de-legitimization of your sovreignty.

Maybe you think Israel's sovreignty in the West Bank is illegitimate, but that simply means that you're in favor of de-legitimizing Israel by recognizing a Palestinian state in the West Bank. But if you think that de-legitimizing Israel is a good thing, why deny that's what you want? On the other hand, if you think it's a bad thing, why do you want to do exactly that?
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Oh, I didn't know citizens in the West Bank were allowed to vote for the Israeli government.

Good thing that they are able, as Israel is a democracy, and the West Bank is (according to you) Israeli territory, so West Bank citizens are able to vote for their government.

Yep, the US has a long history of recognizing Mexican territories and not allowing their citizens to vote. Good example.
 
Virus said:
You kidding? 1 is the best score. Australia is 1 and 1.
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but how did it get the 2 ? what is the problem with civil liberties that places Israel behind australia for example? Remember that Bigjell makes a serious effort at denying there is any difference between Jews and non jews in that area....so what is the problem that rates Israel lower than Australia?
 
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