Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Your last paragraph is perhaps very relevant. As I've mentioned before, I imagine that most inhabitants of the US are well used to the strange (and extremely undemocratic) practice of the executive exerting influence over judicial processes. State Governors and Presidents routinely ride roughshod over judicial decisions by overturning, pardoning or commuting.

I have to point out that this is not the case in most other democratic countries. In the UK, for example, it is unheard of for anyone in the executive branch of government to have any influence whatsoever over the application of justice. There used to be one small anomaly in the case of the position of Lord Chancellor (not to be confused with Chancellor of the Exchequer, AKA Finance Minister), who is a member of the executive but who had some minor judicial authority until this authority was properly removed in the Constitutional Reform Act of 2005.

But no member of the British executive branch of government has any influence whatsoever in the application of justice. Neither David Cameron nor anyone else in political power can put any pressure on judges or courts - they have absolute independence enshrined in law. The same situation exists in Italy.

I've not looked in for a while, but I betcha there's bunnies and kittens just dancing with glee right now, thus I don't want to provide them with any more entertainment. However I suspect the democratic system that works admirably in Britain would be disastrous in the United States, and may well be in Italy as well. I think the corruption of the judiciary and legal system evident in this case and reflected in the ECHR suggests that it would be better off with some checks and balances introduced into its system.

The modern United Kingdom came to be with a legacy of a thousand years as England which slowly added three neighbors every couple or few centuries. The legal system and government grew out of the culture, as opposed to just invented willy-nilly like the US and Italy. Thus the UK does fine with a ceremonial executive, a legislature unchecked by any possible legacy, and a gentleman's agreement constitution. Imagine the American party you dislike most coming to power in one of those heady landslide elections under those rules...

Italy is kind of like between the US and Yugoslavia as I see it, just which one it's closer to remains to be seen. :)
 
Is your here the United States?

Wisconsin, which is one of the states that elects judges, and can impeach them. My point was the system can work that way too, though as I noted there are potential dangers.
 
Hey Mary,

Sure "deals get done" when you're a diplomat, spy or a member of the military. Can you cite any cases where such a deal got done for someone like Amanda?

No. On the other hand, how often does someone get accused (and convicted) of murder with there being no evidence against them?
 
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no, it doesn't

I find your ideas on this subject very interesting much as I did your claims that AK didn't perform cartwheels in the police station despite direct testimony from AK herself that she did.
Claims you have repeated several times even after this testimony had been posted in direct response. I make this comparison as your earlier 'curiosity' over mendacious arguments brought it to mind.

On this.

They filed or they didn't. Asking as you put it or making comments outside the courtroom whether to barmen or journos counts for precisely nothing.

We both know they didn't - so give it up.

Your argument here is on a par with your cartwheel argument referenced above. You are obviously entitled to make them (and many others in a similar vein) but I hold them both (all) in the same esteem.

You asked me to 'put up' - I hope this will suffice :)
platonov,

Your present claim "we both know they didn't" with reference to filing a motion is false, and I am beginning to suspect that you are already aware of this. I know no such thing with respect to what motions were filed with respect to the forensic files, nor have I ever claimed anything with what specific motions were filed other than what was documented at Perugia-Shock. In addition it is my understanding that the motion for a mistrial was based partly on this lack of discovery. Your attempt to put words into my mouth is impolite, given the number of times I have stated my position, corrected misunderstandings, and offered citations. So far your only evidence that motions were not filed is to some unspecified Italian speaker. Is it Machiavelli, or isn't it?

Did you read the relevant portions of Raffaele's appeal? If so, did Dr. Pascali lie, or was he denied the data he sought? You have evaded the same questions with respect to Dr. Krane and Mr. dalla Vedova. I hope for short, declarative answers if you want conversation to continue.

My understanding of what Amanda did or did not do is based on her testimony and what Frank Sfarzo reported, and it seems to me that you have misunderstood my position. The testimony of Amanda's with which I am familiar was ambiguous on the issue of just what athletic maneuvers she did and whether she did some of it after a policeman made a comment on her flexibility. The main problem is that both of the people asking questions lumped at least two things together, and Amanda's answers are general. Here is a link to some testimony.
Thus,
FM: All right. We heard, and you gave testimony on this point, about your
behavior in the Questura, the cartwheel, the gymnastics, the stretching and
so forth.
And,
LG: To the Questura. After the Questura...there followed all these phases,
you were heard, then they took photographs, and you did cartwheels and splits?
Are those things true? How did they happen? And where did they happen?

At one point Amanda said, "I went somewhere a bit outside near the elevator, and I had taken my homework with me, so I started to do my homework, and then I needed to do some 'stretching', so I did some 'stretching', and that's when one policeman said something about my flexibility. A comment." I think that it is possible that a policeman asked her whether she could do the splits or a cartwheel (which is what Frank Sfarzo reported, IIRC). I discussed the question in the first Knox thread, and it grew a little tiresome even then.

You can declare victory all you want, but that doesn't make your position correct. What you have written above is a failure in every respect. You failed to answer my questions or to provide citations. You have repeatedly failed to honestly engage in a discussion of the lack of discovery. I ask you again to withdraw your unproven allegations that I have made mendacious arguments.
 
Donald Rumsfeld

In much the same way as I knew where your 'argument' over 'left the flat' vs 'wasn't with me in the flat' was going after the unfortunate confusion over 'silence' and 'cropping up' recently ;)

Now halides1 can speak for himself - this tag teaming doesn't have the desired effect you know :)
platonov,

It is pretty obvious how your known knowns arise; you simply make them up. It worked for Donald Rumsfeld, for a while at least.
 
Apparently, there are constitutional mechanisms in Italy for granting pardons:

Italy

In Italy, the President of the Republic may “ ... grant pardons, or commute punishments ...” according to article 87 of the Italian Constitution. Like other acts of the president, the pardon requires the countersignature of the competent government minister. The Constitutional Court of Italy has ruled that the Minister of Justice is obliged to sign acts of pardon.[citation needed]

The pardon may remove the punishment altogether or change its form. Unless the decree of pardon states otherwise, the pardon does not remove any incidental effects of a criminal conviction, such as a mention in a certificate of conduct (174 c.p.).

According to article 79 of the Italian Constitution the Parliament may grant amnesty (article 151 c.p.) and pardon (article 174 c.p.) by law deliberated a majority of two thirds of the components.
See: Pardon

///
 
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Can someone help me out here? I am a bit confused about our embassy functions. Did they not visit Amanda in jail and follow the case closely? My question really is what actual power do they have in Italy? Surely they are aware of Amanda's rights being trampled. But in reality what could they do to correct the injustice. I am tremendously pleased with judge Hendley's actions. We need more people to take similar action. The actions of the police and judiciary in Perugia are reprehensible and need as much exposure as possible. Perugia has been an embarrassment to Italy and much needs to be changed.
 
Apparently, there are constitutional mechanisms in Italy for granting pardons:

Italy

In Italy, the President of the Republic may “ ... grant pardons, or commute punishments ...” according to article 87 of the Italian Constitution. Like other acts of the president, the pardon requires the countersignature of the competent government minister. The Constitutional Court of Italy has ruled that the Minister of Justice is obliged to sign acts of pardon.[citation needed]

The pardon may remove the punishment altogether or change its form. Unless the decree of pardon states otherwise, the pardon does not remove any incidental effects of a criminal conviction, such as a mention in a certificate of conduct (174 c.p.).

According to article 79 of the Italian Constitution the Parliament may grant amnesty (article 151 c.p.) and pardon (article 174 c.p.) by law deliberated a majority of two thirds of the components.
See: Pardon

///

According to Broken_English at the IIP site, an Italian familiar with their legal system but not a lawyer, that would require the blessing of the victim's family. I'll just leave it at that.
 
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Your last paragraph is perhaps very relevant. As I've mentioned before, I imagine that most inhabitants of the US are well used to the strange (and extremely undemocratic) practice of the executive exerting influence over judicial processes. State Governors and Presidents routinely ride roughshod over judicial decisions by overturning, pardoning or commuting.

I have to point out that this is not the case in most other democratic countries. In the UK, for example, it is unheard of for anyone in the executive branch of government to have any influence whatsoever over the application of justice. There used to be one small anomaly in the case of the position of Lord Chancellor (not to be confused with Chancellor of the Exchequer, AKA Finance Minister), who is a member of the executive but who had some minor judicial authority until this authority was properly removed in the Constitutional Reform Act of 2005.

But no member of the British executive branch of government has any influence whatsoever in the application of justice. Neither David Cameron nor anyone else in political power can put any pressure on judges or courts - they have absolute independence enshrined in law. The same situation exists in Italy.

LJ--This is an interesting observation. I will offer a few corrections. I don't believe that Governors or the President can "overturn." Certainly they do usually have an inherent power to commute or to pardon.

So from where does this interesting power derive? I'm guessing from the king. But we don't have a king. So the king I mean is your king (queen)--our old king (queen). Perhaps this power no longer exists in your government, but here, it does.
 
According to Broken_English at the IIP site, and Italian familiar with their legal system but not a lawyer, that would require the blessing of the victim's family. I'll just leave it at that.

Would they have to pay blood money?
 
Would they have to pay blood money?

No weregild is mentioned:

Broken_English IIP said:
The acquittal in the appeal process is by far the best solution, one that would put an end to the misadventures of Amanda and her family, all other options have risks and for the "presidential pardon" is required the forgiveness of the victim's relatives.

14th post in the thread.
 
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Amanda human rights

From what I can under stand, is the judge in Seattle, is asking the question , that we on this forum, having been asking over 3 ½ years.
The Embassy should had, or demanded, what the hell, was going on in that police station, on the night of the interrogation,
Please do not forget Amanda became a suspect at 1 45am on the 6th of nov, at that time, by law, she should have been given access, to a lawyer.
If no lawyer could been found at that time of the morning, the questions should have stopped, until a lawyer, could be found.
As we know, the American Embassy, was not informed until, 6am, and all they did was sit on their rear ends, and done nothing, that is what this letter is all about.
As LJ noted this letter, has nothing to do with the Italian law system, the letter is about Amanda human rights, under Italian law.
That is two different things, the people should have been asking, why was there no lawyer , can we hear the tape, and so on, but the people at the Embassy did not, while the red light was a flashing.
 
It's nothing but a bunch of FOA talking points. It raises nothing new. Obama will never see it. The judge has little understanding of how the executive branch of the United States goverment works, the duties and responsibilites of the Secretary of State, the State Department and the Italian judicial system.


Obama may indeed never see this letter. It seems the Italian PM was trying to explain Italy's problem courts and out of control judges to Obama at their recent meeting. Obama looked on cluelessly even though it was clear the Italian PM was interested in talking about the AK case.

The letter would become more important if this court upholds the conviction (which I doubt). For now the State Department is hoping the court will do the correct thing. If the Italian Supreme Court must decide, then US citizens are going to be asking why an up for election President ignored this clear mistreatment of a US citizen.
 
Obama may indeed never see this letter. It seems the Italian PM was trying to explain Italy's problem courts and out of control judges to Obama at their recent meeting. Obama looked on cluelessly even though it was clear the Italian PM was interested in talking about the AK case.

What made you think the Italian PM was interested in the AK case?
 
From what I can under stand, is the judge in Seattle, is asking the question , that we on this forum, having been asking over 3 ½ years.
The Embassy should had, or demanded, what the hell, was going on in that police station, on the night of the interrogation,
Please do not forget Amanda became a suspect at 1 45am on the 6th of nov, at that time, by law, she should have been given access, to a lawyer.
If no lawyer could been found at that time of the morning, the questions should have stopped, until a lawyer, could be found.
As we know, the American Embassy, was not informed until, 6am, and all they did was sit on their rear ends, and done nothing, that is what this letter is all about.
As LJ noted this letter, has nothing to do with the Italian law system, the letter is about Amanda human rights, under Italian law.
That is two different things, the people should have been asking, why was there no lawyer , can we hear the tape, and so on, but the people at the Embassy did not, while the red light was a flashing.


Good summary, zeb.
 
This case is doing a lot of damage to the well being of Italy.

Evidence? Equally offensive and better-publicised miscarriages of justice happen around the world without apparently damaging national well-being of the states in which they occur.
 
Tourist

At this moment of time, the tourist, are not flocking to Italy at this very moment, take Perugia, this small town depends a lot on,the students for their lively hood.
As numbers of students are down, which I am sure , and from the USA, this hurts all of the people from the food shops to the local farmers.
People will not go to Italy, because of this case, I read that the tourist numbers are down in Italy, and remember that a lot of people in Italy, depend on the tourist, for their living.
 
At this moment of time, the tourist, are not flocking to Italy at this very moment, take Perugia, this small town depends a lot on,the students for their lively hood.
As numbers of students are down, which I am sure , and from the USA, this hurts all of the people from the food shops to the local farmers.
People will not go to Italy, because of this case, I read that the tourist numbers are down in Italy, and remember that a lot of people in Italy, depend on the tourist, for their living.

I saw an article on that a while back and was unimpressed with the report. The headline was extravagant but the body of the article didn't seem to support it. I got the impression the results could easily have been confounded by economic factors. I'm just wondering if you've seen a more thorough study that you could present, not that I would encourage anyone to go study in Perugia right now. :)
 
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