Vaccine/autism CT discussion

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Travis said:
Yeah but what if Big Pharma is really behind the anti-Vaccine movement?


Let them stew over that.
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Can't we just convince them that there is a Big AltMed that conspires to keep people sick so they can sell their snake oil? Or is that just too much to ask?
 
Giordano said:
I simply don’t understand the opposition to vaccination. Vaccination is one of the greatest success stories of modern medicine. It's all "natural," and uses the body's own healing power. It's the only form of "homeopathy" that actually works: a little bit of a substance now protects you from a fatal dose later. It could only be better if somehow you could combine it with crystal therapy, right? I suspect the only reason vaccination is rejected by alternative medicine is because it actually works…

When my children were first immunized, I was amazed by the depth of my feelings of overwhelming gratitude toward everyone who had helped develop the vaccines, from Pasteur, Salk, and Maurice Hilleman (look him up if you don't recognize the name) to the nameless technician who put the vaccine in the vial. They had spent their lives (in fact some had lost their lives from the diseases they studied) to protect MY kids from an early death. Two hundred years before, my kids could easily had died before their first birthday, choking their lives out from diphtheria, or stricken by tetanus, but now they were safe. They were safe because of a 150 years of rationality and the scientific method. Before I had children, I knew all that intellectually, but it really affected me viscerally only after I had my kids.

It truly upsets me when I hear the old, regurgitated lies and twisted factoids trotted out from the anti-vaccine sites. "Measles is no worst than the common cold." "No one gets that anymore." "It was only improved hygiene, not vaccinations that improved our life span." "Would you want to put mercury and cells from dead babies in you?"

I know what the world was like before vaccines. I know from the actual history and scientific reports. I don't need to take "Big Pharma's" word for it. I know from my own relatives what it was like as little as 60 years ago, when polio stalked the cities every summer, and the news would spread around the neighborhood when Johnny, the kid around the corner, came down with a headache, fever, and muscle pains. The questions would be asked from parent to parent. "Does Johnnie have polio?" "Will he recover with only a limp?" "Will he be in an iron lung for the rest of their life?" And the most frightening question of all to a parent, "When did Johnny last play with MY child?"

By the time I was born, Salk and Sabin, and all those researchers and doctors who came before them, had saved us from that. Vaccines aren't perfect. Several of the early vaccines had unintended viral contaminants. Some of the early Sabin vaccines were not quite attenuated enough and caused a few cases of polio. But they saved so many, many more people than they hurt. Which is the opposite of what can be said of the anti-vaccination movement.
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There are many vaccines that babies are getting that just don't make sense.

The relatively new cancer vaccine that caused the immediate death of 4 young children.

What are the vaccine damages done to children without death as a result?


http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/hpv-girls-die-india-suspends/


The drive for mass vaccination programmes internationally is the result of the drug industry’s changing business plans from the failing blockbuster patented drug model to hugely lucrative mass multiple vaccinations for the world’s 6.5 billion people. But those who raise valid public and child health safety concerns are routinely ‘label libelled’ as ‘anti-vaccine’, ridiculed and in the case of some medical professionals, hounded out of their jobs.
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fullflavormenthol said:
A better link about the story with India, and by that I mean not sensationalist.
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Nice find, because it also leads to this. Because the report into the trial came out a month or so ago...and it was pretty damning of the trial, at least acoording to this report. But, this quote is important to this whole thing:

The trial came under scrutiny following a public outcry over the death of seven children. Although the cause of the deaths was found to be unrelated to vaccination, the incident revealed a total failure of the mechanism to monitor the ‘volunteers' for both serious and non-serious adverse events following vaccination.
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But I bet CMs favoured sources do not correct any of their reporting...
 
Clayton Moore said:
There are many vaccines that babies are getting that just don't make sense.

The relatively new cancer vaccine that caused the immediate death of 4 young children.

What are the vaccine damages done to children without death as a result?


http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/hpv-girls-die-india-suspends/
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Clayton, perhaps you might want to take a shot at answering this, that you somehow missed:
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"The ones that drive me most crazy are the "Big Pharma" conspiracy theorists. Somehow we are to believe that physicians and the pharmaceutical companies will make more money preventing diseases, instead of treating them. That's insane. A vaccine costs nothing compared to all the costs of admitting a child to the hospital for a week to treat them. My 13 yo daughter had her ankle operated on today and is spending the nite in the hospital as a precaution. She was the only child in the pediatric wing of a moderately large hospital.

No. Sick. Kids.

Somehow I don't think the physicians and pharma companies have thought this money-making scheme out too well. "
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Go for it
 
Clayton Moore said:
There are many vaccines that babies are getting that just don't make sense.
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...to you.

The relatively new cancer vaccine that caused the immediate death of 4 young children.
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Oh God! That's MUCH worse than the long, slow death of thousands of young children from the actual cancer!

ETA: OK, we're talking cervical cancer. It usually hits later in life, but does kill 79000 women a year in India.

What are the vaccine damages done to children without death as a result?
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I have a nasty scar on my arm from the smallpox vaccine.
 
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fullflavormenthol said:
I suppose this is your way to bow out of the debate while saving face then? It is far easier than to deal with the evidence against you or at least people calling out your less than stellar sources.
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Do you have a list, in sequence, of the first 22-25 vaccines a baby/toddler gets in the USA before she is two years old?
 
And what would be your point when provided with this list?
 
Clayton Moore said:
That's not how it works.
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But it is how it works, because for all the sources you have provided you haven't provided anything that shows that those vaccines are actually harmful.

BUT...that has nothing to do with your statement dismissing those who disagree with you. You see my issue is with the way you are making an argument, and yet refusing to engage those who come up with a counterpoint to your argument. Do you understand? Here is a source by the way, and it means nothing to you.

So why is it you come to a forum based on debate and refuse to engage with those who provide a counterpoint?

EDIT: If you feel that members are being unfair, and ridiculous, then the solution is to break off the argument...not engaging in one while refusing to engage in one.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
I have little regard for vaccine robots.
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I see you've chosen to ignore the fact that the investigation into the HPV vaccine trials in India showed that those deaths blamed on the vaccine were nothing to do with the vaccine.
 
Tolls said:
I see you've chosen to ignore the fact that the investigation into the HPV vaccine trials in India showed that those deaths blamed on the vaccine were nothing to do with the vaccine.
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Oh, come on. Four deaths in a country with only a billion people? What are the odds of THAT happening! It HAD to be the vaccines! ;)
 
Clayton Moore said:
I have little regard for vaccine robots.

That's not how it works.
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Of course not. In your world "how it works" is that you make assertion after assertion, only to have them proven wrong or questioned. You then disappear for a few days and upon your return, pretend the entire discussion never happened.

But it isn't helping. It only shows how ill-informed you are.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Do you have a list, in sequence, of the first 22-25 vaccines a baby/toddler gets in the USA before she is two years old?
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You're claiming vaccines are harmful so you should have looked at the evidence before making the claim.
 
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