Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

Still, at least it wasn't signed by a little green frog.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

responsibilities of the U.S. government

LondonJohn,

I am confused by your response to the letter. My limited understanding is that the U.S. State Department is supposed to monitor a trial to see that a country is following its own laws. This letter makes a case that there was a failure of Italy to follow certain laws, as noted in points (2), (3), and (7) of the letter. I am not sure what the State Department is supposed to do if violations do occur, but I would assume speaking out in some fashion would be part of it*. State has not done so, to the best of my knowledge. With respect to point (2) I would add that as soon as Raffaele was arrested, Amanda was (for all practical purposes) a suspect, even if she had not yet made her 1:45 statement. Finally, I raise the possibility that discovery laws were violated with respect to DNA and TMB, and I wish the letter had added these items.
*and/or lodge a formal protest of some kind

 

[LondonJohn]

LondonJohn,

I am confused by your response to the letter. My limited understanding is that the U.S. State Department is supposed to monitor a trial to see that a country is following its own laws. This letter makes a case that there was a failure of Italy to follow certain laws, as noted in points (2), (3), and (7) of the letter. I am not sure what the State Department is supposed to do if violations do occur, but I would assume speaking out in some fashion would be part of it. State has not done so, to the best of my knowledge. With respect to point (2) I would add that as soon as Raffaele was arrested, Amanda was (for all practical purposes) a suspect, even if she had not yet made her 1:45 statement. Finally, I raise the possibility that discovery laws were violated with respect to DNA and TMB, and I wish the letter had added these items.

I agree with everything you've said in principle, and I wholeheartedly agree with your arguments that a whole host of laws and articles of the criminal code were probably breached during this investigation. But there are four important caveats:

1) The trial process is still in progress. The Italian courts (including the Appeal Court and the Supreme Court) still have the opportunity to address all of these concerns. It's not like a US or UK trial where there's essentially only one trial, and where any further judicial process must be based on specific strong points of appeal.

2) The Supreme Court has already essentially addressed points 1-4 of the letter - although it may be subsequently called upon to address the ridiculous situation whereby Knox's inadmissible statements were nonetheless heard in the court where they'd been deemed inadmissible, on account of a frankly baffling (and probably unlawful) ruling from Massei to run the Lumumba slander trial concurrently.

3) As you say, I don't think the US has any power to intervene in any case. The US executive branch has a strange (and in my eyes unlawful) right to intervene in the judicial process of its own citizens (gubernatorial* or presidential pardons or commutations). But this is very much not the norm in modern Westernised democracies. In pretty much every European country (including Italy), the executive branch of government has absolutely no right whatsoever to intervene in the workings or rulings of the judiciary. All it can do is propose changes in the laws, which must then be approved by the legislative branch.

4) As such, the US is utterly powerless to intervene in Knox's judicial case - either directly to the Italian judiciary or via the Italian executive branch. My understanding of the monitoring situation is that if there are egregious breaches of a US citizen's human rights when they are detained in a foreign country (e.g. they are shackled to beds, or denied food for days on end, or denied any legal representation whatsoever), the US consular monitors are supposed to pick this up and can then make international representations under international human rights legislation (including via the UN Human Rights Council). That's not the case here. Knox's basic human rights and basic legal rights have been safeguarded - even though the Italian authorities appear to have acted unlawfully in several areas of her treatment.


* I love that word! I must try to use it more often

 

[pilot padron]

Frogs and Official Misconduct

Still, at least it wasn't signed by a little green frog.

Maybe the little green frog would have been better than a disgraced Superior Court Judge whose previous ill advised letter writing endeavors on behalf of his neighbors and his daughter's classmate earned him formal charges and professional censure from the Commission of Judicial Conduct State of Washington.

He violated Canons 1, 2(A), and 2(B).
In general, that means Judge Heavey lent the prestige of his judicial office to advance his own private interests, and possibly those of others..

Did the Little Green Frog ever do something as stupid as that.

ETA:
Personally, the 'Little green Frog' would also be preferable to another of the letter's signers, Ms Bremner, Esq.
Her most recent actions and widely criticized reactions to her latest unlawful acts and judicial punishments are easily accessed by the host of rabid Google aficianados here

 

[Matthew Best]

Did the Little Green Frog ever do something as stupid as that.

Yes, he expected someone calling himself "Kermit" to be taken seriously.

 

[Alt+F4]

Yes, he expected someone calling himself "Kermit" to be taken seriously.

Kermit Roosevelt (1889 – 1943) was a son of U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt. Kermit was a writer, a businessman, an explorer on two continents with his father, a graduate of Harvard University, and a soldier serving in both world wars.

 

[pilot padron]

Full name only please

Yes, he expected someone calling himself "Kermit" to be taken seriously.

And for that the Professional Conduct Bureau of Little Green Froggies publicly and professionally censured him

To further follow from your 'abbreviated' argument's logic...... everyone here signing anything other than full name here is also "doing something stupid, and not to be taken seriously".

 

[Matthew Best]

And for that the Professional Conduct Bureau of Little Green Froggies publicly and professionally censured him

To further follow from your 'abbreviated' argument's logic...... everyone here signing anything other than full name here is also "doing something stupid, and not to be taken seriously".

No-one here is writing an open letter to the President or the Committee to Protect Journalists, they are just posting on a message board. "Kermit" is fine for the latter, not so much the former.

 

[Matthew Best]

Kermit Roosevelt (1889 – 1943) was a son of U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt. Kermit was a writer, a businessman, an explorer on two continents with his father, a graduate of Harvard University, and a soldier serving in both world wars.

Fascinating. Do you have anything to say about the subject of this thread?

 

[platonov]

Wow

LondonJohn,

I am confused by your response to the letter. My limited understanding is that the U.S. State Department is supposed to monitor a trial to see that a country is following its own laws. This letter makes a case that there was a failure of Italy to follow certain laws, as noted in points (2), (3), and (7) of the letter. I am not sure what the State Department is supposed to do if violations do occur, but I would assume speaking out in some fashion would be part of it*. State has not done so, to the best of my knowledge. With respect to point (2) I would add that as soon as Raffaele was arrested, Amanda was (for all practical purposes) a suspect, even if she had not yet made her 1:45 statement. Finally, I raise the possibility that discovery laws were violated with respect to DNA and TMB, and I wish the letter had added these items.*and/or lodge a formal protest of some kind

halides1

Wow

You having been trying for 18 mths* to convince any non Faokers/skeptics here on this DNA discovery issue [FSA files or whatever] and have failed completely. For obvious reasons - its not even a defence motion apparently. Lest there be any backtracking I am referring to the lack of discovery itself, not the timeliness.
So the next logical step [having downgraded it to a possibility ] is to try to convince the US Pres !

Just ************* *********** Wow !


Actually, Why isn't it mentioned.
Do Hampikian and co not what to cosign a letter with a scientist of Wrong Way Waterbury's repute (& his book obviously wont sell itself).

*Having followed Odeed's link to the start of the Cartwheel thread, I see it was being referred to as a broken record even then.

 

[pilot padron]

Fascinating. Do you have anything to say about the subject of this thread?

Uh...

We got that tired, endlessly employed, dim defensive regurgitation, predictably upchucked whenever the argument turns against the Home team.

But it is not even vaguely applicable here, since *you* sent the argument elsewhere by introducing the cute 'little green frog named Kermit to deliberately divert the (embarrassing to you?), discussion of professionally disgraced signers, Heavey and Bremner to the letter about Knox

 

[Kaosium]

Maybe the little green frog would have been better than a disgraced Superior Court Judge whose previous ill advised letter writing endeavors on behalf of his neighbors and his daughter's classmate earned him formal charges and professional censure from the Commission of Judicial Conduct State of Washington.

He violated Canons 1, 2(A), and 2(B).
In general, that means Judge Heavey lent the prestige of his judicial office to advance his own private interests, and possibly those of others..

Did the Little Green Frog ever do something as stupid as that.

ETA:
Personally, the 'Little green Frog' would also be preferable to another of the letter's signers, Ms Bremner, Esq.
Her most recent actions and widely criticized reactions to her latest unlawful acts and judicial punishments are easily accessed by the host of rabid Google aficianados here

So what's the penalty for the vile offense of 'improper use of stationary?' Do they make him change the ink in the office printer next time it runs out?

 

[Kaosium]

I don't think that there are many invalid points per se in the letter though. I merely think it was pointless, grandstanding, incorrect and improper to have written to the US President to complain in this way.

I think the proper channel would be the State Department personally, I do believe this should be looked into though. The consulate in Italy does not exist for American government officials to enjoy fine wine, food and maybe even 'Bunga-Bunga' parties.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Carlo Dalla Vedova

You having been trying for 18 mths* to convince any non Faokers/skeptics here on this DNA discovery issue [FSA files or whatever] and have failed completely. For obvious reasons - its not even a defence motion apparently.

platonov,

Dalla Vedova said "It's not the first time we've asked for the police to hand over this information," Dalla Vedova also said, "But they need the raw data they have asked for from the police to do so. We first asked for it in 2009 and it's still not been handed over."

EDT
I do not know as much about Italian discovery laws as I wish I did, and that is why I called it a "possibility." However, I have read elsewhere that the PM has an obligation to release exculpatory information, and that would include the negative TMB results. It is also clear from both Carlo Dalla Vedova's words and the actions of the two independent DNA scientists that release of the electronic data files and other files is something that they expected and needed.

 

[platonov]

platonov,

Dalla Vedova said "It's not the first time we've asked for the police to hand over this information," Dalla Vedova also said, "But they need the raw data they have asked for from the police to do so. We first asked for it in 2009 and it's still not been handed over."

EDT
I do not know as much about Italian discovery laws as I wish I did, and that is why I called it a "possibility." However, I have read elsewhere that the PM has an obligation to release exculpatory information, and that would include the negative TMB results. It is also clear from both Carlo Dalla Vedova's words and the actions of the two independent DNA scientists that release of the electronic data files and other files is something that they expected and needed.

Nice snip there halides1

Actually I could have won a bet that you would have come back with the comment Dalla Vedova made to a journo outside the courtroom recently.There is no motion in the appeal bar a rehash of the timeliness issue that was discussed months ago. So w.r.t. Italian discovery laws D V is incompetent, just forgot to file or is there another option ?

So can we take it that we will hear no more of this FSA or whatever nonsense & that it will be consigned to the same dump as 'Wasn't sure if she went out when he was asleep' , 'The cops brought up PL's name' and all the other discredited tropes ?

 

[pilot padron]

Jail terms. admonishments, and Knox's illustrious letter writers

So what's the penalty for the vile offense of 'improper use of stationary?' Do they make him change the ink in the office printer next time it runs out?

May I suggest that :

1) You read the full "Statement of Charges" before embarrassing yourself further with the uncharacteristically silly argument and summary you cite. That one liner summary does little other than remind me of IIP's similarly deliberately misleading 'summaries' of the Appeals documents....http://www.cjc.state.wa.us/Case Ma...nal Stip.pdf

2) You educate yourself by asking any Lawyer much less any sitting Superior Court Judge how 'vile' (and rare) professional censures/admonishments really are
While you have them on the line, also ask whether "changing the printer's ink" is acceptable/usual punishment.

3) You in the future try not to deliberately ignore how much less honorable (vile) the other Knox letter signer, Ms Bremner's latest offenses also were.
She was sentenced to jail for her actions, (where there are no printers to re-ink as you suggest for adequate punishment for documented professional misconduct.
Based on your frequent insightful posts, I am sure you recall all that, but now *conveniently* choose to ignore in your short, deliberately fact deficient, 'argument' above.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

another option

Nice snip there halides1

Actually I could have won a bet that you would have come back with the comment Dalla Vedova made to a journo outside the courtroom recently.There is no motion in the appeal bar a rehash of the timeliness issue that was discussed months ago. So w.r.t. Italian discovery laws D V is incompetent, just forgot to file or is there another option ?

platonov,

Can you back up your claim about the appeal? The answer is that there is another option.

EDT
Among the discredited tropes I would like to see consigned to the dustbin are "The cops had no idea that Amanda was coming in with Raffaele on the 5th" and "Amanda was not a suspect until she signed the 1:45 statement. Then all questioning stopped." Your list is erroneous. BTW, Your argument is a restatement of what Fiona said to RoseMontag elsewhere. I thought that her argument was pitiful at the time, and it has not aged well.

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium,

Those are a couple of very useful links (RoseMontague initially found the one from New Zealand). A while back I commented on North Carolina's SBI problems and this quote seems pertinent: "The FBI's written policy directed the analyst first to report the positive presumptive test results. If the confirmatory test is negative, the analyst would write, ‘Further testing could not confirm the presence of human blood.’”

The negative TMB test results (ethically and perhaps legally) should have been disclosed to the defense. Dr. Stefanoni's initial denial might have been artful dodging of the question as opposed to mendacity, but that question is beside the point. My understanding is that PM Mignini has an obligation to disclose exculpatory information, and forensic scientists should be scientists not advocates for law enforcement. MOO.

I think there's a serious problem when the only oversight of these labs (that I have been able to find) is by a prosecutor under the theory that he's an incorruptible pursuer of the truth. It might explain why they are loath to be subjected to any international protocols, it's just too cozy of a relationship now. I don't think any independent assessment by a competent reviewer would come to the conclusion that what Stefanoni did in the case of the luminol hits is ethical.

Luminol shows investigators where to look, TMB narrows it down, then the lab confirms with one of the tests you've noted in recent posts. There's two basic ways a stain might get a fase negative with TMB: age and dilution. The age of the stain would by definition be exculpatory in this case; the dilution nearly so as it could have been any tiny amount of blood from an ear or of menstrual origin that got into water on the floor and then tracked around at any time, or from Rudy's bathmat print.

I think that FBI directive might have been 'misunderstood' by this SBI lab, and that lab wouldn't be dealing with luminol hits, they'd never see them. The FBI would want the results of all the tests, that's the purpose of the lab, not to do any investigating for them. There are conditions that would apply to other cases where presumptive tests could fail to show real blood stains, and from the FBI's perspective negatives tell them something too.

 

[platonov]

platonov,

Can you back up your claim about the appeal? The answer is that there is another option.

halides1

Your mendacious argument does you or JREF no credit.

You wont lie directly to your president (very patriotic) merely hedging [ Possibility ] but refuse to show JREF posters the same courtesy.

Scene set in a curved office.

h1: ........ blah blah ..........Possibility.....

Tall Black Guy : What, was the motion filed or not. This is a legal issue not bar talk.

h1 : Can you prove it wasn't .....blah blah

TBG : Get outta here.



EDT It is also an argument made here 6 months ago by an Italian speaker and has aged just fine Unless you are claiming a motion was lodged since, are you ?

 

[Katody Matrass]

...

Hi, pilot!
Have you educated yourself yet?

You'd look much more honorable if you retracted the vile and malicious lies you spouted recently.