Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Fine]

Here's the drop of smeared blood on the faucet...............

Real Blood or Fake Blood?

///

 

[Katody Matrass]

Paraphrasing the translations Kaosium posted.

At the review hearing R says he was at his house by 20 or20:30, ate with A, went to sleep together and woke around 10am.

November 5th interview - at the cottage till 18:00, went to town centre with A. A left to meet friends at le chic, R went home, went on computer, A back by around 1am. This is described as rebutting his previous version on the premise A convinced him to "refer to untrue circumstances".

Prison diary Nov. 7 - talks of confused memories, doesn't remember how long A was absent but doubts she was. Is sure she slept with him that night though. He muses on how the court said he gave 3 versions and the only difference he finds is that A brought him to say crap in the 2nd version, that she had gone out to le chic. Says agin he doesn't remember how long she was absent.

Prison diary Nov. 12 - says A very likely with him all night, never leaving.

He did not confuse anything with Halloween as Fine likes to think. He tells that story with a lot more detail. He was at his friend Francisco's graduation, stayed at his friend Paolo's house, later met A and passed the day with her, had supper. Then she left to go downtown painted like a cat. He goes out later, painted as well, meets up with A and they went home right away and watched a film.

Any comments?

I'm happy to provide some

Nov 5 - Raffaele is confronted with irrefutable proof Amanda went out. They either told him they have video or phone records or both. It doesn't come to his mind they may lie. He tries hard to reconcile it with his memory and gets some events from other nights mixed together to produce his version. Weed and stress has something to do here, too.

Nov 7 - he still struggles with the cops' proof of Amanda being somewhere else.

Later he finally understands it's all ******** and comes to his senses. From now on he's quite sure what he did that night and that Amanda was with him.

 

[Kaosium]

He did not confuse anything with Halloween as Fine likes to think. He tells that story with a lot more detail. He was at his friend Francisco's graduation, stayed at his friend Paolo's house, later met A and passed the day with her, had supper. Then she left to go downtown painted like a cat. He goes out later, painted as well, meets up with A and they went home right away and watched a film.

Any comments?

He was stoned!

Ever mess with one of the stoners? I used to come back from work to the dorms and go to the room with about four guys who'd been toking it up ever since they got back from class. I recall one time just as I walked in I said 'pennies from heaven' when the lighter he was looking for dropped down right in front of him from the loft bed down to the desk he was sitting behind.

They'd spend a half hour laughing like loons and thinking I did it on purpose and incredulous at the phrase 'pennies from heaven' as it wasn't a penny and it wasn't heaven it came from--I must have put it there! They couldn't recall that I'd just that moment walked in, so I never had a chance to get near it before it dropped.

That didn't stop me from having some fun with them though...

Some of the elements here are the same, it's the sequence and exactness that's off. This does not surprise me. Amanda leaves him, the downtown is mentioned, they end up at home together. It could have been the genesis of his 'load of crap.'

At any rate we know it didn't happen this way, whatever happened that night it didn't involve Amanda meeting anyone at Le Chic--that probably came from the cops who wanted to involve Patrick in this debacle. It takes all of 25 minutes to get the time on that statement from the moment they walked in the door of the police station. No deep thought went into any of this...at least on the part of Raffaele and Amanda...

I write to you the reconstruction of the facts. We leave from 31 October, day in which I went to the graduation of Francisco (...) and stayed at Paolo's house (...) and subsequently I met with Amanda. I passed the day with her having supper and then she went downtown with her face painted like a cat. I went out subsequently painting my face making an abstract figure. I took a stroll downtown and after I met again with Amanda. From there we returned home right away and we passed the night watching a film.

 

[platonov]

Funnily enough, I don't see any "trolling and tag-teaming"* going on in relation to this particular point. Instead, I see a pretty good refutation of your core point. You have no idea how or why Sollecito made this fleeting, confused and momentary adjustment to his recollection of events. Furthermore (and far more importantly), you have no idea why this potentially extremely damaging piece of evidence (for Knox at least, and also probably for Sollecito) was never presented in the first trial of Knox and Sollecito.

*And you wouldn't be accusing other JREF members of engaging in such behaviour, would you.....?

It wasnt a core point and there was no refutation - it was, as I said above, a ref in a starred note at the end of a longish * post dealing with Rolfes fatuous 'what was she smoking' argument, which referred to your fatuous 'he wasn't sure if she went out after he fell asleep' argument.

Its pretty straightforward, No

As for the rest feel free to respond my post here

* Longish by my standards

 

[Kaosium]

Here's the drop of smeared blood on the faucet...............

Real Blood or Fake Blood?

///

Amanda's blood from the ill-advised earring experiment most likely:

On the front part of the tap of the sink, there was coagulated blood which was shown to belong to Amanda.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Amanda's blood from the ill-advised earring experiment most likely:

Watching the video it's striking how barely noticeable it is. Actually at first glance all of the bathroom looks completely normal.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Here's the drop of smeared blood on the faucet...............

[qimg]http://gator941.hostgator.com/~michael/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=21&image_id=219&sid=21c1702f4c82a174d7b924ed8fcbb2d0[/qimg]
Real Blood or Fake Blood?

///

It just came to me, what you really mean
Very insightful, Fine.

Did they ever test this trace for blood? Or just DNA?

 

[platonov]

Here's the drop of smeared blood on the faucet...............

[qimg]http://gator941.hostgator.com/~michael/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=21&image_id=219&sid=21c1702f4c82a174d7b924ed8fcbb2d0[/qimg]
Real Blood or Fake Blood?

///

It must be Fake - London John just posted that In fact, there was no visible blood there

 

[Kaosium]

No London John was wrong as usual. [I hadn't ]

Here is my original post, again.

& LJ's response

That's what I mean by transparent.

That might work for Rolfe and you guys but no sale here


ps The fact that RS refused to confirm this 'betrayal' [out between 9pm and 1 am] before the Judge on the 8th is hardly news to even you Kaosium I hope ?

I looked at the post I responded to, thinking that was what was being referred to. Are you implying that was part of a sinister plot on my part? Maybe I'll just let you guess...


At any rate what do you suppose this means?

Raffaele probably could have been out of this mess had he just confirmed what he'd said. They'd eventually notice the shoeprints didn't match, perhaps sooner if they wanted Raffaele as a witness. Ever wonder why there's barely any mention of Raffaele in Amanda's statements? Certainly nothing condemning him. It's all about Patrick. Why do you suppose they never pressed her on Raffaele if he was supposedly her accomplice?

Raffaele not being sure about his recollections of a night he was stoned is hardly surprising, and since it works against him, quite likely the truth. Especially when he's being questioned about it four days later when again he's stoned, and then two days later he tells the truth again, he wasn't sure. He eventually realized it was just the suggestion of the cops that ever made him doubt it, which again has the ring of truth.

Are you going to condemn a kid to a lifetime in jail when there's no legitimate evidence against him, and massive indications the cops screwed up, just because he wasn't sure what to think after the police messed with his mind when he was stoned?

Put it into context.

 

[Kaosium]

It must be Fake - London John just posted that In fact, there was no visible blood there

Look at his picture, does it look like there's blood there? Wiping my monitor off, and getting my nose right next to the screen it looks like I might see a shadow that might be blood. It probably doesn't look like there's blood there due to the lighting, angle and shadow.

Or Massei could be wrong, maybe it's fake blood they found Amanda's DNA in. Why didn't they say something about the TMB test being postive?

 

[platonov]

I looked at the post I responded to, thinking that was what was being referred to. Are you implying that was part of a sinister plot on my part? Maybe I'll just let you guess...


At any rate what do you suppose this means?
Raffaele probably could have been out of this mess had he just confirmed what he'd said. They'd eventually notice the shoeprints didn't match, perhaps sooner if they wanted Raffaele as a witness. Ever wonder why there's barely any mention of Raffaele in Amanda's statements? Certainly nothing condemning him. It's all about Patrick. Why do you suppose they never pressed her on Raffaele if he was supposedly her accomplice?

Raffaele not being sure about his recollections of a night he was stoned is hardly surprising, and since it works against him, quite likely the truth. Especially when he's being questioned about it four days later when again he's stoned, and then two days later he tells the truth again, he wasn't sure. He eventually realized it was just the suggestion of the cops that ever made him doubt it, which again has the ring of truth.

Are you going to condemn a kid to a lifetime in jail when there's no legitimate evidence against him, and massive indications the cops screwed up, just because he wasn't sure what to think after the police messed with his mind when he was stoned?

Put it into context.

Absolutely nothing.

Its Utterly Irrelevant

Actually as regards the appeal its mostly completely ? irrelevant.This Nov 5th fixation is not shared by the defence lawyers for obvious reasons.They have to deal with the real world.

 

[LondonJohn]

Here's the drop of smeared blood on the faucet...............

[qimg]http://gator941.hostgator.com/~michael/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=21&image_id=219&sid=21c1702f4c82a174d7b924ed8fcbb2d0[/qimg]
Real Blood or Fake Blood?

///

Gosh, you're right and I was mistaken. I looked for all the photos I could find of the tap, and also saw the video of the bathroom. None of them indicates visible blood under the normal artificial light in that bathroom. The video zooms in on the tap a few times, and at no point can this blood be seen.

But I'm willing to concede that there was indeed visible blood on the tap, and that I was wrong. However, the small smear was likely barely visible under normal lighting conditions in the bathroom - so I would suggest that Knox might not have noticed its presence in the day(s) before November 1st. It might therefore be Knox's blood from her botched ear piercing a couple of days previously.

And as you say, it's also very possible that it's the fake blood that Meredith was wearing as part of her Halloween costume: she almost certainly washed it off her face at some point after she arrived home after the Halloween party, and the logical place to have done that would have been in the sink in the small bathroom. It's a real shame that apparently the forensics team did not test this (and other) red-coloured areas for the presence of human blood. If this was indeed Meredith's artificial blood, then it's entirely possible that she removed it without removing any of her DNA at the same time, and that this smear was lying on top of non-blood DNA material deposited at an earlier time by Knox.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Funny how that fixation is everything guilters can cling to, while the real evidence crumble down around them.

 

[sln708]

Look at his picture, does it look like there's blood there? Wiping my monitor off, and getting my nose right next to the screen it looks like I might see a shadow that might be blood. It probably doesn't look like there's blood there due to the lighting, angle and shadow.

Or Massei could be wrong, maybe it's fake blood they found Amanda's DNA in. Why didn't they say something about the TMB test being postive?

If we could back up for a second...LJ clearly said there was no blood visible on the faucet. And although it is not visible in the black and white picture he provided, it is quite clearly visible in the color photo. So LJ, is it there or isn't it?

 

[LondonJohn]

Look at his picture, does it look like there's blood there? Wiping my monitor off, and getting my nose right next to the screen it looks like I might see a shadow that might be blood. It probably doesn't look like there's blood there due to the lighting, angle and shadow.

Or Massei could be wrong, maybe it's fake blood they found Amanda's DNA in. Why didn't they say something about the TMB test being postive?

Well, this is the other interesting point here (and one of the points that led me to erroneously suggest that there was no visible blood on the tap). The Massei Report is almost pointed in not referring to blood on the tap - when it refers explicitly to blood (or dilute blood) when discussing all of the other areas in the bathroom that were swabbed.

I therefore wonder if this smear on the tap was tested with a presumptive test, but came back negative for human blood. After all, it wouldn't be the first time in this case that a negative TMB result was suppressed, would it?

(And I'd agree that the majority of the photos and the crime scene video shot under the normal lighting conditions in the bathroom don't show a visible blood smear. The photo showing the smear appears to have been taken with a strong lighting source (and/or a pushed exposure).)

 

[Katody Matrass]

it's entirely possible that she removed it without removing any of her DNA at the same time, and that this smear was lying on top of non-blood DNA material deposited at an earlier time by Knox.

Earlier or later - she testified she touched it when she discovered it, while doing her ablutions.
Now when Fine pointed that possibility it started to look really fake to me - the orange reddish color and the consistence that is entirely dissimilar to all the other traces.

 

[sln708]

Me thinks I need to post a little quicker. I see you have corrected your error LJ. Please accept my apologies.

Carry on then....

 

[LondonJohn]

If we could back up for a second...LJ clearly said there was no blood visible on the faucet. And although it is not visible in the black and white picture he provided, it is quite clearly visible in the color photo. So LJ, is it there or isn't it?

It is there. I already said I was wrong. ETA: we're obviously posting across each other

And it's not a black & white picture: it's a colour picture taken using the normal lighting conditions in the bathroom (which had no natural light source, and seemingly weak artificial lighting). There are also other photos taken under the same lighting conditions which don't appear to show any visible blood. And there's a video also taken under the same lighting conditions, which contains various close-ups of the tap with no visible blood.

 

[LondonJohn]

Absolutely nothing.

Its Utterly Irrelevant

Actually as regards the appeal its mostly completely ? irrelevant.This Nov 5th fixation is not shared by the defence lawyers for obvious reasons.They have to deal with the real world.

But why is it not shared by the prosecution lawyers either? Surely this would be dynamite evidence against Knox (and pretty strong evidence against Sollecito too). Why haven't they used it, platonov?

 

[sln708]

Indeed sir....right again...it is color(colour). Perhaps they borrowed Amanda's community lamp to take the close up picture provided by Fine.