'Statins' - nothing but slow poison?

My point (if I had one ;)) was simply to illustrate the cost differences of drugs in the US vs. countries with national health care.

My insurance is through a not for profit professional association--they offer a PPO and a major medical/fee for service/indemnity plan (seems to go by various names). I have the latter.

I have no idea about the PPO; but my association also wheels and deals and gets secondary providers to obtain discounts for provider services, as well as drug prices.

For me, IIRC, after I meet my drug deductible (separate from my medical deductible), they will pay 60/70/80% of the cost of the drug, depending whether it is preferred/generic/brand--until I reach my out-of-pocket for the year--then they pay full cost.
I give a lot of vaccinations and PPD TB skin tests. Many of the same vacines and the PPDs are given by my colleagues who are employee health nurses in hospitals. So I know what the hospital pays for the vaccines and Tubersol and what I pay. The difference is disgusting, sometimes 1000% markup. I also know what the prices are on the state department of health purchasing contract. Your tax supported public health pays more for vaccines than some hospitals despite having negotiated a CDC federal purchasing contract. Both pay less than private practices.
 
I'm not sure how dangerous or not dangerous statins are but I haven't seen a study that shows that taking them decreases mortality. Anyone have a decent study that shows this?
Read the second link I posted in post #6 for a balanced discussion of the risk/cost benefit of statins. It's a short article.
 
What "difficulty navigating through the junk info on the Net to get to the valid info" did I "describe"?

You mean, not providing one or two arbitrary sources? If you're so incurious that you refuse to simply do as I suggested - Google/Bing/Ask "statins side effects", that's your problem, not mine.
I am well acquainted with the potential side effects of statins. Why would you assume I wasn't?


What do you mean by "the corporate community"? You're not suggesting that corporate-owned industries make supplements!? NOooo!! Say it ain't so!
And yet you think the Big Pharma conspiracy doesn't include the supplement products they also make.




And that settles it? Excuse me for not finding a single appeal to authority a definitive refutation.
Meta-analysis defined
a systematic method that takes data from a number of independent studies and integrates them using statistical analysis.
It would help if you actually looked at a link before dismissing it.




Your dismissal as "absurd" (without bothering to ask a single question) of my account of a man who, after I'd known him well for several years and who looked after as well as anyone his age, abruptly developed acute joint pain (he had NOT shown any predisposition to osteo-arthritis, had never suffered joint pain excepting in his back, due to injury/surgery, nor was he subsequently diagnosed as such) and SIMULTANEOUSLY suffered pronounced cognitive deterioration, which coincided PRECISELY with his beginning a regime of statins, and which are symptoms widely reported as typical of the side-effects of statins in those in middle-age or older .........well, that's rather absurd itself.

Whatever - would you mind providing couple of obvious examples of the "dozens of possible causes" for what happened to him, off the top of your head? I'll pass them on to his physician (who was also mine, as it happens) ASAP - he couldn't think of ONE himself.
You need to first learn the concept that correlation does not prove causation. If you don't understand that concept, nothing I say to you will get past the pre-existing knowledge error you are making that you cannot draw the conclusion you did from any amount of observation of a single individual by the means you described. In other words, nothing you could describe would change my conclusion in this case. You aren't looking at valid research.

How do we know the difference between valid and invalid research? Easy, valid research leads to successful conclusions. Are you oblivious to the fact modern medicine cures cancer, infection, extends expected lifespans and so on?

But beyond that, I provided a link to actual valid research data which more than trumped your small sample size and limited data. You don't even have a blood test result showing the effect of the statin on your neighbor.




BTW, have you heard of 'Baycol'? If not, just google it (groan). Lots more internet junk, but a lot of junk-litigation as well. Baycol's side effects were pretty much the same as the other statins - premature decrepitude and death - it just inflicted them a little too quickly to be dismissed as "the effects of ageing".

http://www.spacedoc.net/
Since I prescribe drugs, I have an extensive education and experience with the risks of pharmaceuticals, the issues with new drugs and with drugs with significant risks. We prescribe very dangerous drugs when a person has a serious problem worth the risk and safer drugs are not available. Most prescribers have a protocol or algorithm for newly approved drugs that don't have an established track record. To discuss all these issues with you in this thread is just not practical. You don't even understand the basic concept of risk/cost vs benefit, let alone the concept of managing drug side effects.
 
From the OP
« I told him what I'd found out, that he should stop. He listened, but of course there was no way he was going to do it (disobey his doctor? Disobey authority?) - he went back to his quack and got what they call "bland assurances" (he was offered Simvastatin instead of Lipitor). What I had to do was print out some literature, wihch I left with him. He stopped a couple of days later and never took them again. »

Most of what came to mind when reading the OP has been addressed. All I have to say is please, pretty please, with a cherry on top, do not, DO NOT reasearch the interwebs and then advise anyone to disregard what their physician says. Seriously, this is careless and dangerous. Stop it. Thanks.
 
The difference is, with actual prescription drugs, anything you report to your doctor after starting a drug may end up as a "side effect".
One of the drugs I take for psoriatic arthritis lists "increased psoriasis symptoms" as a side effect, and some sleep aids list "insomnia" as a side effect...


According to Druin Burch in Taking the Medicine (p.226-7) any symptom exhibited by people taking the drug in a controlled trial gets recorded as a side-effect, even if it is exhibited by more subjects in a placebo control group than in the group taking the actual drug.
 
Want to know what "memories are made of"? They're made by the creation and rearrangement of synapses, the connections between neurons (brain cells), and synapses are made from .... cholesterol. In fact, one of the most common molecules (apart from water) making up your brain is .... guess what?

Nope, wrong, yes lipids and other things make up cell walls, but you are FLAT OUT WRONG, Memoreis are NOT made by the creation and rearrangement of synapses, they are made by neural networks of conditioned patterns, in a long series of cross connected neurons.

Synapses are NOT made of cholesterol anymore than a vacuum is made of air.
 
It is, in fact, people in middle-age and older who take statins who report deterioration in mental and physical health.

And show the research papers then especially since you do not know teh family history or alcohol use of your friends.

Citations are your responsibility, give us the data and the studies.
 
The latter.

Oh so a gut feeling is enough to make accusations with no basis in the actual reported rates of a side effect in a population?

The fact that you start with a wall of text and make wild and inaccurate statements now blosetered by your unwillingness to defend your statements?

you could have just posted teh follwing:

Dear JREF forum members, I am curious as to the role statins may play in the deterioration of mental health.

Instead of STATINS SLOW POISONS
 
According to Druin Burch in Taking the Medicine (p.226-7) any symptom exhibited by people taking the drug in a controlled trial gets recorded as a side-effect, even if it is exhibited by more subjects in a placebo control group than in the group taking the actual drug.

Correct. All adverse events are recorded even if they obviously have nothing to do with the compound. A study subject accidentally breaking a leg rollerblading, while still active in an ongoing study (even if on the placebo or if treatment has ceased and study is doing post treatment follow up) will have the fracture recorded as an adverse event.

In fact, employees of pharmaceutical companies - or their sub contractors - are requested to report any adverse event they come across in civilian life. For example - if I read a blog where someone says something like "Had a headache, took X and swallowed down with Diet Pepsi, burped like a navvy all night." then I am actually supposed to highlight to the manufacturer of X that I have come across someone complaining of flatulence after taking X.

Adverse effects and side effects are not the same thing, but every adverse event is recorded and investigated to see if it is coincidence or a side effect and if there is any doubt erring will be on the side of caution. I.e. something can be recorded as a possible side effect even if the compound most probably didn't cause it at all.

Adverse event can be such a thing as cutting your fingers trying to squeeze pills out of a blister pack or opening a packet of surgical sponges and find that they have been discoloured. Everything gets recorded.
 
According to Druin Burch in Taking the Medicine (p.226-7) any symptom exhibited by people taking the drug in a controlled trial gets recorded as a side-effect, even if it is exhibited by more subjects in a placebo control group than in the group taking the actual drug.
You might want to consider that with prescription drugs, the people who write the prescriptions know full well how to interpret the side effects listed in the drug information by the manufacturer. In addition, if one of our patients has an unusual symptom we want to know if it might be related to the drug, we simply contact the manufacturer by phone. They maintain post market data collection and can often give additional information.

It is expected that rare side effects will not show up in the initial research. Think about it. You cannot test a drug practically on a couple hundred thousand people before you market it. So if a side effect occurs once in 100,000 people it isn't going to show up until the drug is on the market. This is OK. It's not a big deal. It is yet one more piece of information that goes into the cost/risk vs benefit assessment.

Everything you do has risk, everything. Driving or riding in autos, walking up your stairs, eating cucumbers and sprouts, breathing the polluted air of any city... But who would stay in one place because transportation was hazardous? Heck, I've even gotten in a small plane with smoke coming out of the engine like a car with bad valves because I wanted to go where the plane was going. I was terrified, but I just said, oh well, the risk is worth it.

If you have a medical problem, be it pain or diabetes or cancer or the potential to die prematurely of heart disease, and a drug has some risk but also a benefit, weigh the data and decide if it is worth the risk or not. To hide under your bed afraid of a list of side effects you read on the Net without any consideration of the benefit of the drug, all the while you think nothing of driving your car which carries tremendous risk compared to the drug, .... well hopefully you can see where this is going.

My philosophy is to manage risk, not hide from it or make arbitrary decisions without considering the data like, vehicle is OK but a statin isn't. If a risk is easy to avoid, seat belts for example, the decision is a no brainer. But if the decision is more complex like deciding if I really want to give up tasty bacon for breakfast, then I want the data to make an informed decision. Most people, however, don't manage risk, they just plough threw life not understanding why they are paranoid of a Big Pharma CT while they never think twice about that very familiar but much more hazardous vehicle they ride in every day.
 
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According to Druin Burch in Taking the Medicine (p.226-7) any symptom exhibited by people taking the drug in a controlled trial gets recorded as a side-effect, even if it is exhibited by more subjects in a placebo control group than in the group taking the actual drug.

I didn't know that - seems a rather OTT approach, I'd always assumed the side-effects were "calibrated" against the control group.
 
Yes, and you could find many more if you wanted.

Ironically, I work (voluntarily) at a BHF furniture and electrical store (a charity shop on steroids)

I see you make a claim, you are unwilling to support it and expect us to do your homework for you.

If this was a research paper you just got a grade of "F"

I do know how to do more that read blog posts from the year 2005,

I use PubMed, it would behoove you to do so as well

Simvastatin is the statin that most efficiently protects against kainate-induced excitotoxicity and memory impairment.
 
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Synopsis

Atherosclerosis means, literally, "scarring of the arteries".

Scarring is a consequence of injury.

Hence atherosclerosis should be regarded as a consequence of injury to the lining of the vascular system.

it is in all liklihood the result of chronic, perhaps life-long, inflammation caused by;

1) Irritation by substances in our diet which were largely absent in the pre-industrial world, notably mass-produced, refined/processed and over-heated unsaturated seed-oils.

2) periodic infection, caused by persistently raised blood sugar which is an unavoidable consequence of eating carbohydrates (particularly fast digesting, refined ones, and not least pure sugar) while leading a sedentary life style (blood-borne infection is a major symptom of diabetes) **

This inflammation (and infection) is largely symptom-free in younger people, and can only be diagnosed with specifically designed tests, which is not done (although anyone could buy a blood-sugar testing kit if they wanted, and many, if not most, would confirm that they are spending a large proportion of their lives with raised blood-sugar).

Asserting that the constituents of the scarring (no, it is NOT “plaque”, the stuff Ancel Keys managed to get his rabbits to accumulate in their blood-vessels by putting cholesterol in their food) are the CAUSE of atherosclerosis is idiotic, bass-ackwards reasoning, and easily falsified.

(BTW, cholesterol is a primary ‘building block’ of all scar-tissue, which is why serum-cholesterol drops precipitously after serious injury as it is ‘sequestered’ to the injury site)

Statins cause great harm in blocking the synthesis of cholesterol, CQ10 and other molecules.

However, they also have a powerful anti-inflammatory effect, which accounts for the observed slight decrease, a few percent, in deaths from heart-attack over periods of, say, 5-10 years (the typical duration of a “long term” drug trial) in study groups of people with existing vascular disease or a known, congenital predisposition to it. These numbers are then extrapolated to higher ones for commensurately longer periods of time.

But further, this difference of a few percent between groups taking and not taking statins is misrepresented thus; for the sake of argument, let's say it’s 3% vs. 4.5%, this will always be referred to as a "50 percent increase in survival" (4.5 / 3 = 1.5) making it sound much more significant than it is. This “statistical semantics” even takes in a lot of “experts” who should know better – but as Benjamin Disraeli said; “lies, damned lies and statistics”.

** In the pre-industrial world, people typically lead much more physically strenuous lives. The Roman army "marched on its stomach", largely eating grains, bread etc'. Ditto agricultural labourers, and so on - in fact all but the elites, who tended NOT to eat such bland, 'affordable' foods. But physical exertion 'burns' blood-sugar as it is absorbed from the gut, thus maintaining relatively normal levels. That isn’t to say that vascular disease was unknown – I gather evidence of it has been found in Egyptian mummies.

For those who need a refresher in high-school nutrition, food consists basically of proteins, fats and carbohydrates (starches and sugars). The ONLY pathway for the digestion and absorption of carbohydrate is via breaking it down (in the gut) into sugar whence passes into the blood. We can, of course, synthsise sugar from fats and vice versa elsewhere in the body.
 
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I see you make a claim, you are unwilling to support it and expect us to do your homework for you.

If this was a research paper you just got a grade of "F"

I do know how to do more that read blog posts from the year 2005,

I use PubMed, it would behoove you to do so as well

Simvastatin is the statin that most efficiently protects against kainate-induced excitotoxicity and memory impairment.

Unwilling, if you like, but I am not "expecting" anyone to "do my homework" -a rather old comeback.

Actually, I have a limited amount of time online, usually no more than a couple of hours a day (I have no connection at home, out of choice). Simple as that.

Most of the points I've made are agued for at http://www.spacedoc.net/. Knock yourself out.
 
Yes, and you could find many more if you wanted.


You have refused to cite the sources for the "compelling evidence" that you claim exists, but have instead told people to Google particular words. I performed the exact google search you suggested. What I found didn't support your argument. finding "many more" sources that don't support your argument won't help you.

If you have sources for evidence to back up your argument, cite them (or better still, link to them).
 
Atherosclerosis means, literally, "scarring of the arteries".

Scarring is a consequence of injury.

Hence atherosclerosis should be regarded as a consequence of injury to the lining of the vascular system.

it is in all liklihood the result of chronic, perhaps life-long, inflammation caused by;

1) Irritation by substances in our diet which were largely absent in the pre-industrial world, notably mass-produced, refined/processed and over-heated unsaturated seed-oils.

2) periodic infection, caused by persistently raised blood sugar which is an unavoidable consequence of eating carbohydrates (particularly fast digesting, refined ones, and not least pure sugar) while leading a sedentary life style (blood-borne infection is a major symptom of diabetes) **

This inflammation (and infection) is largely symptom-free in younger people, and can only be diagnosed with specifically designed tests, which is not done (although anyone could buy a blood-sugar testing kit if they wanted, and many, if not most, would confirm that they are spending a large proportion of their lives with raised blood-sugar).

Asserting that the constituents of the scarring (no, it is NOT “plaque”, the stuff Ancel Keys managed to get his rabbits to accumulate in their blood-vessels by putting cholesterol in their food) are the CAUSE of atherosclerosis is idiotic, bass-ackwards reasoning, and easily falsified.

(BTW, cholesterol is a primary ‘building block’ of all scar-tissue, which is why serum-cholesterol drops precipitously after serious injury as it is ‘sequestered’ to the injury site)

Statins cause great harm in blocking the synthesis of cholesterol, CQ10 and other molecules.

However, they also have a powerful anti-inflammatory effect, which accounts for the observed slight decrease, a few percent, in deaths from heart-attack over periods of, say, 5-10 years (the typical duration of a “long term” drug trial) in study groups of people with existing vascular disease or a known, congenital predisposition to it. These numbers are then extrapolated to higher ones for commensurately longer periods of time.

But further, this difference of a few percent between groups taking and not taking statins is misrepresented thus; for the sake of argument, let's say it’s 3% vs. 4.5%, this will always be referred to as a "50 percent increase in survival" (4.5 / 3 = 1.5) making it sound much more significant than it is. This “statistical semantics” even takes in a lot of “experts” who should know better – but as Benjamin Disraeli said; “lies, damned lies and statistics”.

** In the pre-industrial world, people typically lead much more physically strenuous lives. The Roman army "marched on its stomach", largely eating grains, bread etc'. Ditto agricultural labourers, and so on - in fact all but the elites, who tended NOT to eat such bland, 'affordable' foods. But physical exertion 'burns' blood-sugar as it is absorbed from the gut, thus maintaining relatively normal levels. That isn’t to say that vascular disease was unknown – I gather evidence of it has been found in Egyptian mummies.

For those who need a refresher in high-school nutrition, food consists basically of proteins, fats and carbohydrates (starches and sugars). The ONLY pathway for the digestion and absorption of carbohydrate is via breaking it down (in the gut) into sugar whence passes into the blood. We can, of course, synthsise sugar from fats and vice versa elsewhere in the body.


[citation needed]
 

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