Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Thanks Fine. I was aware that Sollecito had spoken before Judge Matteini at his appearance in court on November 8th. I'm just not aware that it has ever been established that Sollecito claimed that Knox left his apartment between 9pm and 1am on the evening/night of November 1st/2nd. And I'm still not aware that this fact has ever been established.
As I've said before, if Sollecito did indeed say such a thing, and if it was admissible as evidence, then it would be a major pointer towards Knox's guilt (and a possible pointer to Sollecito's guilt too). I feel totally certain that Mignini would have used it as significant evidence in front of Massei's court, and I also feel totally certain that Massei would have addressed it in his sentencing report. But it's noticeable by its absence......
Incidentally, I just came across this Telegraph report of the proceedings in Matteini's court on November 8th 2007:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1568864/Meredith-killed-during-extreme-sex-game.html

Note the following passages:

* * *

Some of these are pretty well known as exaggerations or lies on behalf of the police and prosecutors. But there are a few amongst them that I was not aware of:

1) Did the police really claim to have found Knox's fingerprints on Meredith's face?

2) Who was this "regular" who the police managed to find within 2 days of Lumumba's arrest, who was prepared to testify incorrectly that Le Chic was closed?

3) Is this "unknown fingerprint in blood on a cushion" actually Guede's hand print on the pillow? And, if so, it's interesting that Mignini's instinct was that there was a fourth person involved.

________________________

John,

Here's a better summary in English of the Matteini Report: HERE

It's always troubled me, too, that Massei doesn't mention Raffaele's "BS" story told to the cops on the night of November 5th. He clearly told that story to the cops, however briefly, as he acknowledged before Judge Matteini. (And mentioned, obliquely, in his Diary, too.) And Mignini mentioned Raffaele's "BS" story in his recent CNN interview...citing it as incriminating evidence.

Here's my theory, just a guess: Raffaele's attorneys challenged the admissibility of the Matteini Report (for reasons I won't go into). It may be that Massei didn't cite the Matteini Report because he feared that his own MOTIVATIONS REPORT would be weakened if a later appeals court were to find the Matteini Report inadmissable.

Maybe others have some thoughts on Massei's silence on this matter.

///
 
Mary, as a friend, I feel embarrassed for you saying that "Amanda did not lie".
Amanda did indeed lie, and more than once.
You may argue she is not guilty (and often do very admirably), but please do not attempt to argue "she did not lie"

May I start by quoting her own lawyer who throughout the trial was very protective of his client and her oft cited 'quirkiness'.
He was forced to concede the following:
" Luciano Ghirga, told reporters Friday [09 November 2007]"... that his client had given "three versions and ... it is difficult to evaluate which one is true."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004005696_italy10m.html

Spare us any attempts to even waste cyberspace spinning this straightforward affirmation that his own client, Knox, did actually lie here when (2) of her 'versions' were simply *in his own direct words*.... 'untrue'.

Although the above is adequate refutation of your statement,
for the record, some time ago another observer listed several other instances of 'lies' from Knox.

As a preface, some of these additional examples of 'lies' have been the subject of very vigorous and varied attempts here to justify, interpret, spin,and/or explain.
I remain unconvinced.
Regurgitation of those unconvincing attempts will do little other than add to the 50,000, and I will not again revisit them.

1) Lie one. Amanda said she was going to call Raffaele, but according to Raffaele, Amanda had already returned to his apartment at 11.30 am, and then they had gone back to the cottage.

At 12.34 pm Amanda and Filomena spoke again. Filomena said, “We spoke to each other for the third time and she told me that the window in my room was broken and that my room was in a mess. At this point I asked her to call the police and she told me that she already had.”

2) Lie two. Amanda and Raffaele didn’t actually call the police until 12.51 pm.
The postal postal police unexpectedly turned up at the cottage at 12. 35 pm.

3) Lie three. Amanda and Raffael told the police that they had called the police and were waiting for them.

4) Lie four. Amanda told the postal police that Meredith always kept her door locked. Filomena strongly disagreed with her, and told the postal police the opposite was true.
Amanda and Raffaele were then taken in for questioning.

5) Lie five. They said they couldn’t remember most of what happened on the night of the murder, because they had smoked cannabis.
It is medically impossible for cannabis to cause such dramatic amnesia and there are no studies that have ever demonstrated that this is possible.
Long term use of cannabis may affect short term memory, which means that users might have difficulty recalling a telephone number. But it won’t wipe out whole chunks of an evening from their memory banks.

6) Lie six. Amanda accused Diya Lumumba of murdering Meredith at the cottage.
It’s true that two of Amanda’s such statements were thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court. However, Amanda repeated the accusation, in a note that she wrote to the police on 6 November.
This note was not thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court, and it was admitted as evidence.

7/8) Lies seven and eight. In her 6 November note Amanda claimed to have seen Diya Lumumba at the basketball court at Piazza Grimana; and outside her front door. He was actually at his bar.

9) Line nine. Amanda’s supporters claim that she confessed to a lesser role in Meredith’s murder, and blamed Diya Lumumba, because she had been “smacked around” or put under pressure by the police.
But the real reason she had to say she was at the cottage was because she was informed that Raffaele Sollecito was no longer providing her with an alibi.
Raffaele had been confronted with phone records, and was now claiming that she was not with him the whole evening, and that she had only returned at 1.00 am. Amanda did not attempt to refute Raffaele’s claim, but now admitted that she had been at the cottage.
The significance of this about-turn cannot be stressed enough.

(Incidentally, Raffaele was also claiming that he had lied, because he had believed Amanda’s version of what happened and not thought about the inconsistencies. He is acknowledging that Amanda’s version had inconsistencies.)

If it had been true that Amanda had been “smacked around” by the police during questioning, why haven’t her lawyers ever filed a complaint? It was very telling that Amanda dropped her allegation of being hit by the police at her recent court hearing, and instead just claimed she had been put under pressure.

There’s a world of difference between police brutality and being put under pressure. It wasn’t the first time that Amanda has made a false and malicious accusation, as Diya Lumumba knows only too well.

10) Lie ten. Amanda claimed to have slept in at Raffaele’s until the next morning. However, her mobile records show that this was not so. Amanda turned on her mobile at approximately at 5.32 am.

The only plausable explanation for Amanda’s deliberate and repeated lies? That she was involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

It should be no surprise to anyone following the case that the same three witnesses who have repeatedly lied, Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guede, have all been placed at the crime scene.

Even if I agreed with you that these were lies (which I don't as to me anything happening during a unrecorded police interrogation can't count as a lie) that wouldn't be proof that Amanda was involved or had anything to do with the murder. Especially when the real murderer (Rudy) is already known and just telling lies tells you nothing about how they supposedly worked together.

Over and over on this forum I've asked for an explanation about how/why they would all be working together and I've still not heard a theory that makes even a smidge of sense.
 
The only part of this case I have a really firm view on is the time of death. And before anyone starts accusing me of having a library card or googling stuff, I might mention that I spent part of this morning in conference with the procurator fiscal on the subject of my expert evidence regarding time of death and sequence of events of a killing, and exactly where the hole was in the prosecution evidence that might lead her to reconsider the wisdom of the prosecution.

Now I admit the "murder" victim was a fallow deer, and that stomach contents had nothing to so with it (there was no stomach by the time I got involved). Nevertheless, there are certain principles in forensic pathology that are reasonably universal, and can be followed by anyone with cross-species experience.

And I'm still waiting for someone to show me the evidence that makes me feel there's any reason to doubt that Meredith died at about nine o'clock.

And sorry, "the defence don't seem to be making a big deal of it" isn't an argument. You want to know about incompetent defence lawyers? I could write a book.

Rolfe.


Don't worry about the pro-guilt nonsense regarding the defence lawyers. They like to parrot the refrain that they were the "best that money could buy", but this is demonstrably wrong.

Here's the truth on the defence teams:

Knox's lead lawyer (dalla Vedova) isn't even a criminal defence lawyer - he is a commercial contract lawyer who had worked with the US Embassy in Rome, and who was apparently recommended to Knox's mother by embassy staff predominantly because he spoke good English. Prior to defending Knox, he had never done any work whatsoever in criminal law. Knox's second lawyer (Ghirga) is a small-time local lawyer who was a friend of Perugia's mayor, and became her lawyer when the mayor was asked by Seattle exchange councillors (Seattle is coincidentally twinned with Perugia) to find some legal assistance for Knox.

Sollecito's lead lawyer (Bongiorno) is a full-time member of parliament who also sits on various parliamentary committees. In addition, her previous criminal defence experience has exclusively been in fraud and corruption cases - she's never previously been involved in defending someone in a serious crime of violence. She was apparently selected by Sollecito's father, very probably on the basis that he was familiar with her through her fame in helping defend former Prime Minister Andreotti against corruption charges some years previously. Sollecito's second lawyer (Maori) is a junior defence lawyer who has very little experience of defending people charged with serious crimes of violence.

In addition to the flawed credentials of the defence teams, there's ample evidence that they made a number of mistakes during the first trial. These include (but are not limited to): a failure to refute Curatolo's testimony by reference either to his drug-dealing investigation or the non-presence of disco buses on the night of the murder; seemingly not getting Sollecito's laptop properly examined by a computer expert; not arguing strongly on the forensic evidence collection errors; and not arguing properly (with supporting expert testimony) on the time of death.

It's also worth remembering that - specifically in regard to the ToD issue - the defence was also somewhat stymied by the prosecution's extraordinary sleight of hand in shifting the ToD back by over an hour in its closing argument. I don't believe that there's any way that the presiding judge should have allowed this move, since it gave the defence very little opportunity to rebut the new ToD argument (the trial had already moved beyond the evidence/testimony phase and into the argument phase).

Even so, the defence teams could have created a strong argument using merely the testimony they already had - including that of the police autopsy pathologist (Lalli), who testified that death very likely occurred within 2-3 hours of the start of the last meal. But they didn't do that, and essentially allowed Massei to buy into the fairytale that Meredith died at around 11.40pm.
 
Do I take it that those still ridiculing the notion that Amanda might actually be innocent have just decided to ignore the evidence for Meredith's death having occurred at about nine o'clock?

Rolfe.


The 'jury' is still out on the latest version of 'Dead by 9.05/9.20/9.30' - the new improved 9pm watershed.

There were some outstanding issues* over what meal start time this was based on (for starters) - it appears to be a 'law of gastric analysis' peculiar to the subject MK which has some inconsistencies and is unknown in the literature. I am open to correction on this - is there an 'MK dead by 9' section ?

Added to that the lack of knowledge of what was actually presented in court as regards witness testimony, autopsy details etc & a lack of familiarity with the points on which the judgment was made and thus could be appealed.

Legal opinion seems to be that 'assuming' the claims made on the web on CT threads just might not cut it.

As these issues have not been addressed it's up to the FoA to decide whether to pass this on to the defence expert witnesses and see if they go with it.
Yes, believe it or not, the lawyers [one of whom made her name as a 'junior' defending Andreotti ] actually called on the services of expert witnesses. These Italians might be dark skinned but they are pretty smart.


TBH - It's not looking good. When mere laymen who can tell the time can spot the inconsistencies it would hardly survive a rigorous examination by a professional possessed of a knowledge of the discipline, the case itself and a watch.

ETA * Simply refusing to answer Q's in a timely fashion might be bad form for a defendant [I don't remember / I was confused] but for an 'expert witness' it destroys their credibility.
 
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Don't worry about the pro-guilt nonsense regarding the defence lawyers. They like to parrot the refrain that they were the "best that money could buy", but this is demonstrably wrong.

Here's the truth on the defence teams:

Knox's lead lawyer (dalla Vedova) isn't even a criminal defence lawyer -

Forgive me for not reading any more than your opening ?'truth'? about just who was Knox's 'lead' lawyer.

If your oft self heralded Google and Library Card skills fail to even correctly identify just who the lead lawyer was, forgive me for ignoring the remainder of the argument.

Save us the usual wiggles about misinterpretations and/or correct stretches of the terminology 'lead' when something you so dogmatically declare is shown to be completely wrong.

Cites (innumerable others available if one uses Google well)
1) http://www.newsweek.com/2008/10/27/judgment-day.html
2) http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/amanda_knox/8.html

Surely you also knew that dalla Vedova was recommended to Edda by the US Embassy supposedly only because he spoke English well, and *the lead Attorney, Ghirga* did not.
You did know that, did you not ?
 
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Forgive me for not reading any more than your opening ?'truth'? about just who was Knox's 'lead' lawyer.

If your oft self heralded Google and Library Card skills fail to even correctly identify just who the lead lawyer was, forgive me for ignoring the remainder of the argument.

Save us the usual wiggles about misinterpretations and/or correct stretches of the terminology 'lead' when something you so dogmatically declare is shown to be completely wrong.

Cites (innumerable others available if one uses Google well)
1) http://www.newsweek.com/2008/10/27/judgment-day.html
2) http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/amanda_knox/8.html

Surely you also knew that dalla Vedova was recommended to Edda by the US Embassy supposedly only because he spoke English well, and *the lead Attorney, Ghirga* did not.
You did know that, did you not ?

So to sum up you have one minor nit to pick, and you are going to pretend this invalidates everything else about the post?

Logic doesn't work that way.

It's not even a relevant nit, as far as I can see. Can you explain how it matters which was the lead attorney?
 
The 'jury' is still out on the latest version of 'Dead by 9.05/9.20/9.30' - the new improved 9pm watershed.

There were some outstanding issues* over what meal start time this was based on (for starters) - it appears to be a 'law of gastric analysis' peculiar to the subject MK which has some inconsistencies and is unknown in the literature. I am open to correction on this - is there an 'MK dead by 9' section ?

Added to that the lack of knowledge of what was actually presented in court as regards witness testimony, autopsy details etc & a lack of familiarity with the points on which the judgment was made and thus could be appealed.

Legal opinion seems to be that 'assuming' the claims made on the web on CT threads just might not cut it.

As these issues have not been addressed it's up to the FoA to decide whether to pass this on to the defence expert witnesses and see if they go with it.
Yes, believe it or not, the lawyers [one of whom made her name as a 'junior' defending Andreotti ] actually called on the services of expert witnesses. These Italians might be dark skinned but they are pretty smart.


TBH - It's not looking good. When mere laymen who can tell the time can spot the inconsistencies it would hardly survive a rigorous examination by a professional possessed of a knowledge of the discipline, the case itself and a watch.
ETA * Simply refusing to answer Q's in a timely fashion might be bad form for a defendant [I don't remember / I was confused] but for an 'expert witness' it destroys their credibility.

What inconsistencies?
 
Shouts from the gallery, while good for morale perhaps ? , are also frowned upon by the court :)
 
Mary, as a friend, I feel embarrassed for you saying that "Amanda did not lie".

Thank you, pilot, but no need. I have felt embarrassed for myself often enough to last several lifetimes. No reason we should both suffer. ;)

First, let me acknowledge with pleasure that you seem to have considerably softened your stance on discussing Amanda's "lies" since about 2 1/2 weeks ago, when you stated that you "will not comply with requests to... 3) Define and document each of Amanda's lies." (I do realize and freely admit that today's post is not in response to anyone's request.)

Amanda did indeed lie, and more than once.
You may argue she is not guilty (and often do very admirably), but please do not attempt to argue "she did not lie"

May I start by quoting her own lawyer who throughout the trial was very protective of his client and her oft cited 'quirkiness'.
He was forced to concede the following:
" Luciano Ghirga, told reporters Friday [09 November 2007]"... that his client had given "three versions and ... it is difficult to evaluate which one is true."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004005696_italy10m.html

Spare us any attempts to even waste cyberspace spinning this straightforward affirmation that his own client, Knox, did actually lie here when (2) of her 'versions' were simply *in his own direct words*.... 'untrue'.

If Luciano Ghirga "throughout the trial was very protective of his client and her oft cited 'quirkiness'," then I wonder how effective it is to give any weight to what he said on literally the first day he met her (according to reports). Do you think it's possible he may have changed his thinking about what to say to the press once he got beyond what he had been informed of by other members of ILE and the court?

Although the above is adequate refutation of your statement,
for the record, some time ago another observer listed several other instances of 'lies' from Knox.

As a preface, some of these additional examples of 'lies' have been the subject of very vigorous and varied attempts here to justify, interpret, spin,and/or explain.
I remain unconvinced.
Regurgitation of those unconvincing attempts will do little other than add to the 50,000, and I will not again revisit them.

While I agree that regurgitating any discussion of the lies can certainly be a waste of cyberspace, it seems to be necessary every now and again, anyway, because some people are still laboring under serious misconceptions about the facts of the case. I'm afraid that your repetition of the accusations listed here leads me to wonder whether you belong in that ever-shrinking group.

1) Lie one. Amanda said she was going to call Raffaele, but according to Raffaele, Amanda had already returned to his apartment at 11.30 am, and then they had gone back to the cottage.

At 12.34 pm Amanda and Filomena spoke again. Filomena said, “We spoke to each other for the third time and she told me that the window in my room was broken and that my room was in a mess. At this point I asked her to call the police and she told me that she already had.”

2) Lie two. Amanda and Raffaele didn’t actually call the police until 12.51 pm.
The postal postal police unexpectedly turned up at the cottage at 12. 35 pm.

3) Lie three. Amanda and Raffael told the police that they had called the police and were waiting for them.

4) Lie four. Amanda told the postal police that Meredith always kept her door locked. Filomena strongly disagreed with her, and told the postal police the opposite was true.
Amanda and Raffaele were then taken in for questioning.

"Lies" 1 and 4 represent nothing more than inexact reports by uncertain people. They are not only hearsay, but if you want to believe that Amanda is lying, then in each case you have to lend the most credibility to Raffaele and/or Filomena, which is simply a matter of choice, not of evidence. In the large scheme of things, the subject matter of these is insignificant.

(I certainly hope you are not suggesting that Amanda and Raffaele were taken in for questioning as a result of Amanda and Filomena's differences between whether or not Meredith locked her door. If so, don't forget that Filomena was taken in for questioning at the same time.)

"Lies" 2 and 3 are no longer on the table, the court having accepted Raffaele and Amanda's version of the timing of the phone calls to the police and the police's arrival.

5) Lie five. They said they couldn’t remember most of what happened on the night of the murder, because they had smoked cannabis.
It is medically impossible for cannabis to cause such dramatic amnesia and there are no studies that have ever demonstrated that this is possible.
Long term use of cannabis may affect short term memory, which means that users might have difficulty recalling a telephone number. But it won’t wipe out whole chunks of an evening from their memory banks.

It would be helpful to have the specific citations for when and where Amanda and Raffaele said that marijuana had affected their memories of the night of the murder. Regardless, while Amanda and Raffaele may have been convinced by their own confusion and by the abuse they received that they were somehow at fault for their inability to remember all the events of the night of November 1st, and that part of that "fault" included having smoked marijuana, my own opinion is that they had pretty good memories of the events of the evening and that any failures resulted from the length of time that had passed before they were interrogated about the events, not from marijuana. They may have been convinced otherwise by their lawyers, though.

6) Lie six. Amanda accused Diya Lumumba of murdering Meredith at the cottage.
It’s true that two of Amanda’s such statements were thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court. However, Amanda repeated the accusation, in a note that she wrote to the police on 6 November.
This note was not thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court, and it was admitted as evidence.

Any statements that resulted from the forced interrogations of the two defendants are open to a great deal of doubt. These accusations can be supported only by actual recordings of what happened in the interrogations.

7/8) Lies seven and eight. In her 6 November note Amanda claimed to have seen Diya Lumumba at the basketball court at Piazza Grimana; and outside her front door. He was actually at his bar.

Cite?

9) Line nine. Amanda’s supporters claim that she confessed to a lesser role in Meredith’s murder, and blamed Diya Lumumba, because she had been “smacked around” or put under pressure by the police.
But the real reason she had to say she was at the cottage was because she was informed that Raffaele Sollecito was no longer providing her with an alibi.
Raffaele had been confronted with phone records, and was now claiming that she was not with him the whole evening, and that she had only returned at 1.00 am. Amanda did not attempt to refute Raffaele’s claim, but now admitted that she had been at the cottage.
The significance of this about-turn cannot be stressed enough.

(Incidentally, Raffaele was also claiming that he had lied, because he had believed Amanda’s version of what happened and not thought about the inconsistencies. He is acknowledging that Amanda’s version had inconsistencies.)

Again, any statements that resulted from the forced interrogations of the two defendants are open to a great deal of doubt. These accusations can be supported only by actual recordings of what happened in the interrogations.

If it had been true that Amanda had been “smacked around” by the police during questioning, why haven’t her lawyers ever filed a complaint? It was very telling that Amanda dropped her allegation of being hit by the police at her recent court hearing, and instead just claimed she had been put under pressure.

Cite?

There’s a world of difference between police brutality and being put under pressure. It wasn’t the first time that Amanda has made a false and malicious accusation, as Diya Lumumba knows only too well.

10) Lie ten. Amanda claimed to have slept in at Raffaele’s until the next morning. However, her mobile records show that this was not so. Amanda turned on her mobile at approximately at 5.32 am.

pilot, I'm hurt. Haven't you been reading my posts (or the Massei report)? I refuted this myth just a few days ago.

The only plausable explanation for Amanda’s deliberate and repeated lies? That she was involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

It should be no surprise to anyone following the case that the same three witnesses who have repeatedly lied, Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guede, have all been placed at the crime scene.

I don't believe you have, with this post, effectively supported your claims.
 
Yup, none of the rest of it it 'mattered'

So to sum up you have one minor nit to pick, and you are going to pretend this invalidates everything else about the post?

Logic doesn't work that way.

It's not even a relevant nit, as far as I can see. Can you explain how it matters which was the lead attorney?

Sure I can.

Logic dictates that statements purported and clearly self identified to be opening 'truths' and additionally positioned as first facts in an argument are not "minor nits".
They are normally strong if not strongest points intended to pique interest and add credibility to what follows.
Did your argument's completely wrong opener do that, per chance?

Is that not how 'logic works'.?
Or does communications engineering reject that too ??

OK, your (predicted) wiggle is now that the opening 'truth' and by imputed reasoning the remainder of your argument really "does not matter".

Thank you for affirming exactly what I predicted.
My decision to avoid reading more of the argument was indeed apparently well reasoned and logically based
 
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Edgardo Giobbi, Marco Chiacchiera, Giuliano Mignini and Domenico Giacinto Profazio

Dr. Giobbi testified that he heard Amanda scream. That is at least consistent with ILE's putting pressure on her and flies in the face of their stories of chamomile tea. Her fears started well before she got the idea that Patrick was involved, so linking her fears with Patrick does not make much sense to me. No one in the pro-guilt community has explained why it was OK for ILE to do something that would provoke a scream that I can recall reading. MOO.


So many Bigwigs there that night. Late at night for the interview of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox.

Edgardo Giobbi, Marco Chiacchiera, Giuliano Mignini and Domenico Giacinto Profazio

The Head of the Rome Serious Crime Squad, Director of the Flying Squad and a Prosecutor. Not to mention most of the flying squad. All there.

Mignini says he saw Raffaele and Amanda being interviewed as he was passing through - perhaps on his way to the control room to have a cigar with Giobbi, Chiacchiera and Prafazio.

The control room is described as being very close to the interview rooms - just an L-shaped hallway away. Within an easy range of hearing a girl scream late at night in the quiet, well usually quiet, Questura.

Giobbi was Mathematically sure he called them both in.
Profazio helped break Amanda in the interview.
Mignini was woken up by Profazio from a nap he took upstairs and told there are developments.

A visual image I take away is Four High Level men all in the Control Room together late at night listening to Amanda Knox scream. Perhaps not exactly, but I think this image captures the gist of what happened that night well.

A lot of high level positions on hand this late at night for just a regular interview of non-suspects. : /

I don't think so.

 
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Thank you, pilot, but no need. I have felt embarrassed for myself often enough to last several lifetimes. No reason we should both suffer. ;)

If Luciano Ghirga "throughout the trial was very protective of his client and her oft cited 'quirkiness'," then I wonder how effective it is to give any weight to what he said on literally the first day he met her (according to reports). Do you think it's possible he may have changed his thinking about what to say to the press once he got beyond what he had been informed of by other members of ILE and the court?


While I agree that regurgitating any discussion of the lies can certainly be a waste of cyberspace, it seems to be necessary every now and again, anyway, because some people are still laboring under serious misconceptions about the facts of the case.
I don't believe you have, with this post, effectively supported your claims.

Mary, your opening exercise in self-deprecation is meaningful as well as an appreciated skillful 'mood lightening' endeavor.
I gladly admit to similar 'suffering'.

Out of respect for you, and a PM from another respected poster, let's just disregard the '10 lies' portion of the post.

I admitted in the preface that they were 'from another poster and vigorously contested here'.
This includes your previous and most recent effort, which I did read and appreciate but do not completely accept as convincing

I now regret including the 10, not out of vulnerability, but more because it has become an easily attacked diversion from Counsellor Ghirga's statement about Knox's 'untruths' which is my central point of argument.

If your 'best shot' at rebutting that, my main point, is that Ghirga probably 'changed his mind later', I have to remain unconvinced and stand by my IMHO certainly sufficiently supported statement.
Additionally, I now wonder if that other poster here's self proclaimed mind reading skills are possibly contagious.
 
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Out of respect for you, and a PM from another respected poster, let's just eliminate the '10 lies'.
I admitted in the preface that they were 'from another poster and vigorously contested here'.
This includes your previous and most recent effort, which I did read and appreciate but do not completely accept as convincing

Do you mind if I have some fun with them then? I haven't seen material this easy since Treehorn got banned... :)
 
Have at it K

Do you mind if I have some fun with them then? I haven't seen material this easy since Treehorn got banned... :)

My signature pretty much precludes me from objecting to your proposed 'fun'.

Not sure however how much 'fun' can be inherent in what was prefaced as 'from another poster and previously vigorously contested', and later even admitted by myself as a 'regrettably posted portion of my argument'.

But do not allow me to in any way impede such a previously proven fun loving fellow JREFer.
 
Mary, your opening exercise in self-deprecation is meaningful as well as an appreciated skillful 'mood lightening' endeavor.
I gladly admit to similar 'suffering'.

Out of respect for you, and a PM from another respected poster, let's just disregard the '10 lies' portion of the post.

I admitted in the preface that they were 'from another poster and vigorously contested here'.
This includes your previous and most recent effort, which I did read and appreciate but do not completely accept as convincing

I now regret including the 10, not out of vulnerability, but more because it has become an easily attacked diversion from Counsellor Ghirga's statement about Knox's 'untruths' which is my central point of argument.

If your 'best shot' at rebutting that, my main point, is that Ghirga probably 'changed his mind later', I have to remain unconvinced and stand by my IMHO certainly sufficiently supported statement.
Additionally, I now wonder if that other poster here's self proclaimed mind reading skills are possibly contagious.


Thank you, pilot. :)

The essence of my argument was not intended to be simply that Ghirga "probably changed his mind later." I'll try to clarify.

You bring up two contrasting, contradictory versions of Ghirga in your post -- the Ghirga who is protective of Amanda "during the trial," and the Ghirga who, on the first day of meeting Amanda, allegedly tells the press that his client presented three different stories. The second version of Ghirga is not protective of Amanda. The reader asks, which characterization of Ghirga most closely matches the reality of the situation -- protective or not protective?

I don't have documentation, but I would venture to say that there is probably so much more evidence of Ghirga protecting Amanda once he got to know her and actually began defending her at trial, that it outweighs the remarks he made about her on the first day he met her to the extent that those remarks can be disregarded. In that sense, as I said, it is not that effective to use Ghirga to support the argument that Amanda lied, because it implies you respect Ghirga and maybe even his overall position, which of course, is one of innocence.

However, I can certainly see how someone could argue that what he said on the first day was truthful and everything he said later was on behalf of the case.

Aside from Ghirga's relationship with Amanda, it is more than likely that on the first day, Ghirga was reflecting what he had been told by the cops and the prosecutor, and not anything he heard from the defendant herself; there simply hadn't been enough time. Furthermore, and in a bottom-line kind of way, having three stories does not a liar make. We would need many more details than that statement alone to decide whether or not any actual lying had taken place.
 
I'd really like to know what this post, and the one you responded to, has to do with the subject of this thread.

Id really like to know what this question about anothers post has to do with this thread.

Any new ideas on an accurate TOD that fit the known facts in the Kercher murder?
 
Sure I can.

Logic dictates that statements purported and clearly self identified to be opening 'truths' and additionally positioned as first facts in an argument are not "minor nits".
They are normally strong if not strongest points intended to pique interest and add credibility to what follows.
Did your argument's completely wrong opener do that, per chance?

The JREF forum rules state that one person may not have two accounts, and two people may not share one account. Nor may banned members re-register under another name. (I scarcely need remind you of that, do I?).

Thus you can be sure that in fact I am not London_John, and vice versa he is not me. So what you refer to as "my argument" is in fact London_John's argument and not mine.

Is that not how 'logic works'.?
Or does communications engineering reject that too ??

I thought we'd seen the end of the stalking behaviour characteristic of a certain morally bankrupt subset of hardcore guilters. Shame on you for trying that again.

No, that's not how logic works. The first statement in an essay or post is not necessarily a claim on which the entire rest of the post depends, hence it's not logical to claim to have identified an error in that statement and then close your eyes immediately. Especially when the error you claim to have identified is, as far as you seem able to establish, totally irrelevant to the point of the post.
 
Mary, as a friend, I feel embarrassed for you saying that "Amanda did not lie".
Amanda did indeed lie, and more than once.
You may argue she is not guilty (and often do very admirably), but please do not attempt to argue "she did not lie"

We've played this game before I think! In fact, we only got started, I had lots more waiting for you, where'd you go? :)

I'd continue my list, but it appears you went out there sifting through the garbage and found some wrinkled up fishwrap and it stinks to high heaven, and there's nothing even close to a lie here! I think it might reek so bad because it's expired! There's stuff here that was decisively destroyed in court. It didn't even tempt Massei to try to use it. It doesn't get much worse than being beneath Giancarlo Massei!

...Oh wait, Mignini.

Nevermind.

May I start by quoting her own lawyer who throughout the trial was very protective of his client and her oft cited 'quirkiness'.
He was forced to concede the following:
" Luciano Ghirga, told reporters Friday [09 November 2007]"... that his client had given "three versions and ... it is difficult to evaluate which one is true."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004005696_italy10m.html

Spare us any attempts to even waste cyberspace spinning this straightforward affirmation that his own client, Knox, did actually lie here when (2) of her 'versions' were simply *in his own direct words*.... 'untrue'.

Sounds to me like he has experience with ILE! They rattle their heads around, give 'em a couple whups, and he gets to clean up!



Although the above is adequate refutation of your statement,
for the record, some time ago another observer listed several other instances of 'lies' from Knox.

As a preface, some of these additional examples of 'lies' have been the subject of very vigorous and varied attempts here to justify, interpret, spin,and/or explain.
I remain unconvinced.
Regurgitation of those unconvincing attempts will do little other than add to the 50,000, and I will not again revisit them.

1) Lie one. Amanda said she was going to call Raffaele, but according to Raffaele, Amanda had already returned to his apartment at 11.30 am, and then they had gone back to the cottage.

Where are we going with this? Raffaele wasn't exactly sure when his girlfriend called? Or Amanda didn't call right on time? Do you suppose he was afraid she was going to break up with him?

Is this the one where she tells Filomena she was going to talk to Raffaele, and might have meant she just had to go to the next room or right outside? Boy that sounds deeply suspicious to me too!

To think their sinister plot might be foiled by the careful noting of these critical details!

At 12.34 pm Amanda and Filomena spoke again. Filomena said, “We spoke to each other for the third time and she told me that the window in my room was broken and that my room was in a mess. At this point I asked her to call the police and she told me that she already had.”

2) Lie two. Amanda and Raffaele didn’t actually call the police until 12.51 pm.
The postal postal police unexpectedly turned up at the cottage at 12. 35 pm.

3) Lie three. Amanda and Raffael told the police that they had called the police and were waiting for them.

If ILE could tell time, and not have lied then this one wouldn't have been decisively destroyed the defense the last days of the trial and even Massei was convinced! That's 'cuz Raffaele's phone records and the CCTV camera properly adjusted shows that Raffaele did indeed call the police first. However, it sure is interesting the prosecution adjusted the camera time ~10 minutes in the wrong direction.

Then they tried to pretend that Raffaele and Amanda 'lied' about it, which is damned interesting being as they were calling all over everywhere, Raffaele to his sister, Amanda to Filomena and her mother in Seattle and still the prosecution is desperate enough to think they're trying to 'hide' what's going on at the same time they're telling everyone what's going on and asking them what to do!

You couldn't make this stuff up! :D



4) Lie four. Amanda told the postal police that Meredith always kept her door locked. Filomena strongly disagreed with her, and told the postal police the opposite was true.
Amanda and Raffaele were then taken in for questioning.

Let me get this straight, Amanda calls Filomena, they call the police, Raffaele tries to break down the door, and then all of a sudden the likelihood that Filomena misunderstands Amanda trying to say that sometimes Meredith's door is locked becomes cause for suspicion that Amanda doesn't want the body discovered?

Did you know they actually wasted time in court on this? :p

5) Lie five. They said they couldn’t remember most of what happened on the night of the murder, because they had smoked cannabis.
It is medically impossible for cannabis to cause such dramatic amnesia and there are no studies that have ever demonstrated that this is possible.
Long term use of cannabis may affect short term memory, which means that users might have difficulty recalling a telephone number. But it won’t wipe out whole chunks of an evening from their memory banks.

I love how some think they don't remember being involved in a murder that means they must be claiming amnesia and lying about it! It's true four days later they didn't remember every little detail of their movements that night because they were smoking hash and watching movies. I'm certain now they wished they'd kept an eye on the clock and memorized every last thing they did and when they did it as they laid there in bed in Raffaele's apartment. Personally I can't help but suspect some have dirty minds if they insist on timetables like this for that night. :p


6) Lie six. Amanda accused Diya Lumumba of murdering Meredith at the cottage.
It’s true that two of Amanda’s such statements were thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court. However, Amanda repeated the accusation, in a note that she wrote to the police on 6 November.
This note was not thrown out by the Italian Supreme Court, and it was admitted as evidence.

Yes, the 'Dear ILE' letters. They went something like this as I recall:

'I vaguely, confusedly, don't actually remember the murder.'

'Wait! I think that was a dream anyway! 'It's tough to tell after all the yelling, and hitting on so little sleep in the middle of the night!'

I do like how in the latter part of the 'gift' note she shows more investigative acumen that all of the police in Perugia that night.

7/8) Lies seven and eight. In her 6 November note Amanda claimed to have seen Diya Lumumba at the basketball court at Piazza Grimana; and outside her front door. He was actually at his bar.

Isn't it amazing they didn't bother to check that for sure but had rounded up some clown to say the opposite two days later?

9) Line nine. Amanda’s supporters claim that she confessed to a lesser role in Meredith’s murder, and blamed Diya Lumumba, because she had been “smacked around” or put under pressure by the police.
But the real reason she had to say she was at the cottage was because she was informed that Raffaele Sollecito was no longer providing her with an alibi.
Raffaele had been confronted with phone records, and was now claiming that she was not with him the whole evening, and that she had only returned at 1.00 am. Amanda did not attempt to refute Raffaele’s claim, but now admitted that she had been at the cottage.
The significance of this about-turn cannot be stressed enough.

Hash smoking and angry policemen just don't mix. They take some 'smoked' college kid who has no idea what's about to go down, they get him to say whatever the police want by confusing him on the days, or just play with his mind enough so he'll say anything.

(Incidentally, Raffaele was also claiming that he had lied, because he had believed Amanda’s version of what happened and not thought about the inconsistencies. He is acknowledging that Amanda’s version had inconsistencies.)

It sure did after ILE was done with him! Just about as soon as he got out of their hands there were no more 'inconsistencies.' Funny how that works.

If it had been true that Amanda had been “smacked around” by the police during questioning, why haven’t her lawyers ever filed a complaint? It was very telling that Amanda dropped her allegation of being hit by the police at her recent court hearing, and instead just claimed she had been put under pressure.

Lemme see if I can straighten this one out: Amanda tells her side of the story and WHAP! A calunnia charge, six more years on her sentence potentially, even if cleared of murder. WHAP! Her lawyers are charged too.
Her parents tell her side in Seattle? WHAP! More charges.

Now that she doesn't say it again they say she's lying? Are they planning to charge her for that now too? Oh, wait, it's a 'lie' which means they're going to try to convict her of murder instead. Lucky girl!

There’s a world of difference between police brutality and being put under pressure. It wasn’t the first time that Amanda has made a false and malicious accusation, as Diya Lumumba knows only too well.

Yes, she vaguely and confusedly didn't actually remember the murder so they raced out and hauled Patrick out of his home while he was feeding his baby, took him and interrogated him all day, and then blamed Amanda when it turned out he had an alibi.

10) Lie ten. Amanda claimed to have slept in at Raffaele’s until the next morning. However, her mobile records show that this was not so. Amanda turned on her mobile at approximately at 5.32 am.

Wasn't that Raffaele's phone? Do you suppose Raffaele's father would send Amanda a text to be 'indiscreet?'

What a filthy mind must have generated these 'lies!'

The only plausable explanation for Amanda’s deliberate and repeated lies? That she was involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

This just lead to an inescapable conclusion! I am so convinced we must give both Raffaele and Amanda life sentences because some clown on the internet can generate a 'load of crap.'

It should be no surprise to anyone following the case that the same three witnesses who have repeatedly lied, Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guede, have all been placed at the crime scene.

Two of them ILE placed there, the last they kept letting go so he could murder Meredith Kercher. He'll be out in a half dozen or so years now and Raffaele and Amanda are both on trial for their lives.
 
Mary, as a friend, I feel embarrassed for you saying that "Amanda did not lie".
Amanda did indeed lie, and more than once. (snip)

Wow, pilots. What a pile of quite outdated and refuted to death substance you posted there.
That's what you got when you let your co-pilot go unsupervised, I guess :rolleyes:

Going through all that one thing attracted my attention:

The postal postal police unexpectedly turned up at the cottage at 12. 35 pm.

Do you personally really really really still believe it? I see some of your crew do, but what about you?
I wonder what is the state of mind at the bunnies forum. Do they all believe this to be a fact, too? Or is there some dissent about it?
 
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