Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[Dancing David]

Dancing David



In Italian both "household" and "family" are expressed by "famiglia", so maybe the translation has something to do with the "nuclear family", in which "excess heat" is indeed frequently generated.

I sort of remeber that and my first wife had an italian father (lots of heat) but this is the sentence
"No, perché semplici calcoli ed evidenze sperimentali su nuclei “nudi” (non facenti parte di una struttura solida) mostrano che tali reazioni nucleari sono talmente improbabili da non fornire alcun effetto pratico."

and this is what google says
"No, because simple calculations and experimental evidence on households 'naked' (not part of a solid structure) show that such nuclear reactions are so improbable as not to provide any practical effect."

Which must be a contextual translation because if you just put in " nuclei “nudi”" you get "nuclei 'naked' ", I think it has something to do with the 'su'

 

[CaveDave]

http://www.freeenergytimes.com/2011...-to-set-up-factory-for-building-rossi-e-cats/

Quote:
An article in the Greek publication Express reports that Defkalion Green Technologies has acquired all permits required begin production of energy catalyzers invented by Andrea Rossi. The company bought an old factory in Xanthi, Greece and invested €200 million to get it ready to produce the E-cats. Defkalion has exclusive rights to sell to the Greek and Balkan markets.

Andrea Rossi explained in a radio interview on Coast to Coast AM that Defkalion is to date the only licensee of the technology and would remain so until the 1 MW plant that will power the Xanthi factory is operating. Rossi also said that he would not be receiving any funds from Defkalion until the power plant is working correctly.

Not what I would consider a "reliable source"; C2CAM also has as guests such notable people as: Linda Moulton-Howe (Usually talking about Crop Circles and Animal Mutiltations due to alien "visitors"), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._HoaglandRichard C. Hoagland, (advocating pyramids and faces on mars and crystal palaces on the Moon, all supported by intense analysis by dedicated "Pixel Kiddies" who seem to "see" these things in NASA photos), and Bigfoot, Alien Visitor, Loch Ness Monster, Chemtrail, Orb, etc. spotters of wide variety.

I would suggest finding better references.

In the interview he explained the reason he was taking this approach:

“I said to myself I had to arrive not with a theory or with a toy on a table. I have to arrive with a product. In fact we will begin to earn money in October after the successful start up of the plant of one megawatt. Until that moment all the moment on the table has been and will be my money. The only money that has been risked is my money. This way I have cut all the voices about this guy is trying to make some trick, etc, etc. Any attempts to diminish the importance of the technology has been foiled. Because it is clear if somebody puts all his money in a thing if this is a trick he is just tricking himself. The rules are very clear here. Money will change hands only if the plant will work. No good work, no money for anybody and a loss of money for me.”

Sounds like box-stock Flim-Flam tactics and a "Confidence" game to me. YMMV.

That's some lucrative scam he has going ...

Feel free to "Believe", if you choose; I will wait for proof!

Cheers,

Dave

 

[CaveDave]

If I could be absolutely sure there wasn't some underlying scam behind the method for investing that money, I'd invest $1000 in Rossi's venture right now. In fact, I've looked into it and it seems that for the present he's not taking investments, at least not at my level.

Confidence Gaming 101 - Refuse to accept investment and promise to "take all the risk yourself" and people will be DEMANDING to be allowed in!

You have all the hallmarks of a "Tru-Beleever", methinks.

Dave

 

[CaveDave]

But by then you'll no longer be on the ground floor.

You are risk averse so you will never see that 1000 to 1 (plus) return.

You insist on a sure thing.

Confidence Gaming 101, again... "Make the Suckers aware that the Once-in-a-lifetime-opportunity ship is about to sail; no time now to hesitate, if you snooze you lose."

Get Real!

Dave

 

[BeAChooser]

Not what I would consider a "reliable source" ... snip ... I would suggest finding better references.

LOL! Whether you consider the medium, C2CAM, a reliable source is irrelevant if it was an interview where one could actually hear Rossi speak. Then it only comes down to whether one believes Rossi is telling the truth or not ... and the verdict is still out on that. Wouldn't you say that's accurate?

Sounds like box-stock Flim-Flam tactics and a "Confidence" game to me.

You are entitled to your opinion. And I mine. I'm not trying to force you to invest.

Feel free to "Believe", if you choose; I will wait for proof!

Well, we should know by December whose judgement was better in this case.

 

[marplots]

Of course not. Money in escrow will still get a return ... be invested in T-bills, for example. Diamonds will still appreciate. So will property.

I didn't know that. I thought escrow accounts were frozen. I will reconsider. Is there a way I can evaluate the investment to make a good decision? I've only read what's on Wiki about him so far and I'd like to know more.

I assume I can get some information on the companies involved? Maybe financials? I'd be interested in a business plan as well.

 

[Craig B]

Cave Dave

You note that

An article in the Greek publication Express reports that Defkalion Green Technologies has acquired all permits required begin production of energy catalyzers invented by Andrea Rossi.

Have you looked up the word “Defkalion” yet?

It’s the modern Greek version of the name of the ancient hero who was the counterpart of Noah in the ancient Greek form of the Flood story.

As related in an encyclopaedia of ancient myths:

When Zeus punished humankind for their lack of respect by sending the deluge, Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha were the sole survivors. They were saved because of their piety. Prometheus advised his son to build an ark and they survived by staying on the boat.

Everyone else got drowned. So before I invest in Defkalion, I will want to ensure that my share certificate entitles me to a place on that boat!

 

[ben m]

Jackpot investing for dummies:

I have an amazing invention. I need investors. Look! Here is an investor. I will show him my invention.

a) I do a crappy demonstration.
b) Investor says, "Well, that has a 99.9% chance of being fraud. But if it works it's worth a fortune! (NB: this is BAC's logic). I will invest $1000 on the condition that you'll pay me back $1,000,000 if it succeeds."
c) I say, "Dammit! $1,000,000 is pretty tough terms. Normal businesses can borrow $1000 by promising to return $1100. This sucks."

PATH 1 (if the entrepreneur is a moron)
d1) "OK, well, that's the best I can do. Please transfer the $1000 immediately."

PATH 2: (if the entrepreneur is smarter ...)
d2) "Ugh, I'm not giving you $1,000,000---what do you think this is, the lottery? My technology works, it's right in front of you."
e2) "Oh yeah? Then let me see it run in a still water bath with that 'lead' removed."

Path 2a (... but a fraud)
f2a) "Oh, ha ha, I can't do *that*. Give me the $1000 and I promise a $1M return."

Path 2b (... and the technology does work.)
f2b) "There you go. See? This competent and foolproof test shows how well it works."
g2b) "Wow. Seeing that, I'll happily loan you whatever you want at 6% interest. Name your terms. I mean, wow. "

Lesson: If someone offers you a chance at an absurdly-profitable investment, you should ask why they're choosing to offer you this pile of easy cash. Surely they'd rather keep that cash for themselves if they could.

What would they have to do to keep that cash? (Competent, confidence-inspiring calorimetry would allow the hypothetical jackpot-Rossi not to have to hand out jackpots.) Why haven't they just done that?

 

[CaveDave]

That's possible. But the more other scientists and engineers who are directly involved in witnessing and testing during these demonstrations (and I bet there have been other demonstrations that are not public knowledge), the less likely that seems. I've seen enough names, now, that I'm just not as certain as most of you folks (you excluded, DD) that this is a fraud or bogus. In fact, my gut tells me this is real. So as I said in my first post on this thread, I think Rossi and his investors are going to be VERY wealthy and VERY famous (his name will be a household word) VERY soon. And I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is ... but you have to make it worth my while.

The fact REMAINS that we just DO NOT have enough information to decide what this all will shake out as, only speculation and that Big, Bad IF word!

Science is RESULTS based, show us some EVIDENCE!


"Wish in one hand, and defecate in the other; then observe which fills up sooner".

Dave

 

[CaveDave]

Emet

In #1218 you respond to unclep2k



So I started researching these people myself, and chose at random John Bockris as my first project. What exactly John Bockris "may believe" seems quite extraordinary, or at all events he keeps strange company, judging by a paper



h t t p ://w w w .lowenergytransmutations.org/documents/ICCF-10%20Neutrons%20Polyneutrons,%20Composition%20of%20Polyneutrons_%20.pdf



I researched Joe Champion as well, and obtained some fascinating info on his collaboration with Bockris. See h t t p ://w w w .nuscam.com/champion.htm



Having a collaborator banged up in the slammer on charges of gold smuggling seems to be a common occupational hazard encountered by cold fusion researchers. It happened to Rossi as well, earlier in his eventful career, as I relate in my #1172, page 30 of this thread.

Now I'll research some more of the people on unclep2k's list.

My money is on "You will find more of the same".

YMMV

Dave

 

[BeAChooser]

I didn't know that. I thought escrow accounts were frozen. I will reconsider. Is there a way I can evaluate the investment to make a good decision? I've only read what's on Wiki about him so far and I'd like to know more.

I assume I can get some information on the companies involved? Maybe financials? I'd be interested in a business plan as well.

But the soundness of the companies is irrelevant to my offer involving the escrow account. In that case, you aren't investing in the companies. You are simply betting me whether Rossi's claims are true or not. This has to do with your certainty about that. If Rossi's claims about his device are fraud (or the result of bad measurements), then you win. If not, I win. It won't matter how sound the companies' financials are or what their business plan says.

 

[CaveDave]

LOL! Whether you consider the medium, C2CAM, a reliable source is irrelevant if it was an interview where one could actually hear Rossi speak. Then it only comes down to whether one believes Rossi is telling the truth or not ... and the verdict is still out on that. Wouldn't you say that's accurate?


You are entitled to your opinion. And I mine. I'm not trying to force you to invest.

Well, we should know by December whose judgement was better in this case.

YES! To all the above.

ABSOLUTELY!

We will see... won't we...

Dave

 

[BeAChooser]

b) Investor says, "Well, that has a 99.9% chance of being fraud. But if it works it's worth a fortune! (NB: this is BAC's logic).

No, that is not my logic. But you go ahead and misrepresent things. Plenty of that going on now.

 

[BeAChooser]

Science is RESULTS based, show us some EVIDENCE!

You still don't get it. This isn't science. This is engineering. And engineering is also about results. So is making a profit. Even when the government won't cooperate by issuing a patent.

 

[Aepervius]

You still don't get it. This isn't science. This is engineering. And engineering is also about results. So is making a profit. Even when the government won't cooperate by issuing a patent.

Engineering is about using the result physic found, with the characteristic of various material to build an object for certain goal (quality, cheap, quick, mass manufactured, choose 2 or 3 from the list). If the result are not properly framed, or even not supported by science then it is not engineering but trial and error alchemy.

 

[CaveDave]

Cave Dave

You note that



Have you looked up the word “Defkalion” yet?

It’s the modern Greek version of the name of the ancient hero who was the counterpart of Noah in the ancient Greek form of the Flood story.

As related in an encyclopaedia of ancient myths:



Everyone else got drowned. So before I invest in Defkalion, I will want to ensure that my share certificate entitles me to a place on that boat!

I was not aware of that meaning... Thanks for the etymology...

I am not sure which way you swing with that "place on that boat" reference, though.




BUT...


Are you sure I was the originator?
ISTR I was quoting someone else...

Cheers,

Dave

 

[BeAChooser]

Engineering is about using the result physic found, with the characteristic of various material to build an object for certain goal (quality, cheap, quick, mass manufactured, choose 2 or 3 from the list). If the result are not properly framed, or even not supported by science then it is not engineering but trial and error alchemy.

LOL! Sorry, but I prefer the definition found in a classic engineering text by Fung, et al ...

Engineering is quite different from science. Scientists try to understand nature. Engineers try to make things that do not exist in nature. Engineers stress invention. To embody an invention the engineer must put his idea in concrete terms, and design something that people can use. That something can be a device, a gadget, a material, a method, a computing program, an innovative experiment, a new solution to a problem, or an improvement on what is existing. Since a design has to be concrete, it must have its geometry, dimensions, and characteristic numbers. Almost all engineers working on new designs find that they do not have all the needed information. Most often, they are limited by insufficient scientific knowledge. Thus they study mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology and mechanics. Often they have to add to the sciences relevant to their profession. Thus engineering sciences are born.

You might want to realize there were engineers and inventors before there were scientists. Just ask the Romans. Or ask Thomas Edison.

 

[Aepervius]

I have no idea how old is this definition, but here around engineer work is based on science. They are formost applying scientific knowledge to reach some itemized goal.

ETA: anyway the text does not seem to contradict what I said, and indeed it clearly state that engineering is limited by the scientific knowledge. Nice wiki quote by the way. Next time put the REAL reference instead of a simple copy and paste :Classical and Computational Solid Mechanics, YC Fung and P. Tong. World Scientific. 2001

ETA: and no, scientist were ebfore the engineer. Where do you think the roman got their principle on bridge building ? Out of thin air and trial and error ? Maybe they did not have the formal scientific framework we had but the basic principle they found and applied was the science part. Engineering was afterward the material to choose, the balance with cost and security.

 

[unclep2k]

My money is on "You will find more of the same".

YMMV

Dave

You can stay with John Bockris a bit if you want. He was exonerated of the early criticism and his work was confirmed. By the University of Illinois for one. I have a friend that is a chemist and he says Brockis is considered a bit excentric by some, maybe a bit arrogant by some, but most in the field consider him one of the best chemists to ever walk the planet. Did you read about him at the link I posted earlier? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bockris

 

[unclep2k]

John Bockris Yes another hero.