Who started both World Wars?

[9/11-investigator]

ah, so that's why the Germans and the Russians abolished Poland and divided it amoung themselves. to simply reunite the German people..and thats it.

nice lie.

The Poles started killing the Germans living in Versailles-Poland (just like they did on an even more massive scale after the war). Germany harboured 80,000 German refugees and counting from Poland in September 1939.

Here's the 1914 ethnic map of Europe: compare the majority Polish territories with what the Polish have now, after massive scale ethnic cleansing in 1945. What the Poles did in 1945, they already intended to do in 1939. The Poles were even dreaming of marching towards Berlin.

So what was Hitler to do? Let the Poles slaughter the Germans with the moral backing of the Allies?

Get real.

It was not Danzig nor the corridor that pushed Hitler into action, it were the persectutions by the Poles. Hitler was the first German leader after 1918 who had accepted that former majority German territories like Posen would remain Polish. No Weimer social-democrat had made that concession.

 

[Thunder]

The Poles started killing the Germans living in Versailles-Poland (just like they did on an even more massive scale after the war).

#1. got any evidence for this ridiculous assertion?

#2. if protecting the German communities in Poland was Hitler's goal, and returning those lands to Germany that were turned into the new nation of Poland after WW1, then why in the world did Hitler instead conquer half of Poland in 1938..and the rest of it in 1941?

innocent little Adolf don't look so innocent, now does he?

 

[SpitfireIX]

Not to engage in a major derail or anything but I'd just like to wish 9/11 a merry June 6th.

 

[Wroclaw]

Hitler was the first German leader after 1918 who had accepted that former majority German territories like Posen would remain Polish. No Weimer social-democrat had that concession.

Really? How about the ones that signed the Treaty of Versailles?

And if Hitler accepted Polish annexation of formerly German territory like Posen, then why did he occupy Posen?

 

[9/11-investigator]

#1. got any evidence for this ridiculous assertion?

#2. if protecting the German communities in Poland was Hitler's goal, and returning those lands to Germany that were turned into the new nation of Poland after WW1, then why in the world did Hitler instead conquer half of Poland in 1938..and the rest of it in 1941?

innocent little Adolf don't look so innocent, now does he?

So what according to you should Hitler have done? Invade Danzig and then hoping the best of it? You think the Poles would have accepted that? Of course not.

From http://waroneurope.blogspot.com/ material regarding the Danzig issue:
General-Major Schultze-Rhonhof

Who wanted WW2? (1/16)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkeCUyMph40

Troubles in Europe increase after Germany demanded Danzig back in 1933. Just like everybody else the speaker always thought that Hitler wanted to solve the Danzig matter in 1939 with outrageous force. The classical explanation is that Hitler wanted not just Danzig but the rest of Poland as well.

Who wanted WW2? (2/16)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qif2aJilh1o&feature=related

The speaker reads this ‘quote’ from Hitler than can be found in any history schoolbook: “Ich habe nur Angst, daß mir noch im letzten Moment irgendein Schweinehund einen Vermittlungsplan vorlegt.” This statement was added during the Nuremberg trial into the protokol to be used as ‘proof’ against the main defendants. But in contrast until hours before the start of hostilities Hitler had given permission to Goering to negotiate with the British ambassy in Berlin in order to solve the Danzig issue without war. In the 10 days before the start of the war Hitler had asked the Italian, French and British government to mediate in order to avoid war. Hitler had send a 16 point proposition to the Polish government to solve differences. The Poles did not even want to read the proposition. It had to be sent via London... What is always downplayed is the precarious position of non-Polish citizens in the newly created Poland after 1919. Under the many minorities there were: Ukrainians (5M), Jews (2.5M), Germans (2M), and many more. 19 million Poles tried to linguistically ‘Polinize’ these 11 million non-Poles and to make them Catholic as well. The Poles ignored international treaties that told them the acknowledge minority rights. Minorities were supposed to disappear. 1 million Germans had already emigrated because they could not stand the conditions under which they had to live. The Poles applied torture to upport their ruthless assimilation policies.

Who wanted WW2? (3/16)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTLMuk_yjZE&feature=related

It was so bad that 757,000 Jews moved from Poland to Germany between 1934-38, even after the persecution of the Jews there had already begun! In 1939 dramatic deterioration of the situation of the German minority in Poland. Confisation of farms, companies, violence in the street. Fleeing was difficult, people were shot. 80,000 German refugees had made it into Germany. Nothing of this is told in the official school books. In 1939 the Danzig and corridor issue was less pressing than the situation of the German minority in Poland.

Who wanted WW2? (4/16)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oVDkA42ANo&feature=related

in contrast to the Weimar governments he [Hitler] was willing to give in to a demand of Poland, namely to recognize that Silesia would permanently become Polish... Begin 1939 Hitler proposes to make Danzig official German but economically it can remain Polish (911I: this does not sound at all as if in reality the Germans were only interested in Poland, the were nationalists, for chris-sake!!). Begin 1939 Poland is seen as a pariah state because of it’s aggressive behavior since Versailles.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Really? How about the ones that signed the Treaty of Versailles?

And if Hitler accepted Polish annexation of formerly German territory like Posen, then why did he occupy Posen?

Because the Poles refused to cooperate over the Danzig issue.

Getting anywhere over the Norway case? Still waiting for a rebutal of the thesis of Lunde, but my opponents are all so suspiciously silent. Wonder why that is?

 

[9/11-investigator]

May 11th 1940? So no cities were bombed by the germans before this date?
Really?

I suggest You read "Enemy coast ahead". Especially the first part where Guy Gibson describes the ineffectual way the english were conducting their bombing attacks. And under what a restricted rules they were flying in the beginning.

All the material in this thread about the WW2-bombing here:

http://20thcentury-blog.blogspot.com/2010/12/allied-bombing-campaign.html

 

[Thunder]

It was so bad that 757,000 Jews moved from Poland to Germany between 1934-38, even after the persecution of the Jews there had already begun!

you post ridiculous lies like this, and expect us to take your posts seriously?

are you actually suggesting that in 1938, Germany had more than 1 million Jews????????????

 

[Corsair 115]

All the material in this thread about the WW2-bombing here:

http://20thcentury-blog.blogspot.com/2010/12/allied-bombing-campaign.html

And what do we find in this first paragraph on that link? This:

Between 1940 and 1945, sixty-one German cities with a total population of 25 millions were destroyed or devastated in a bombing campaign initiated by the British government. Destruction on this scale had no other purpose than the indiscriminate mass murder of as many German people as possible quite regardless of their civilian status.

Which I just addressed back in post #4980 (and which, I note, have not been rebutted by the resident Nazi sympathizers posting in this thread). But since our intrepid 9/11-investigator apparently missed it, I'll try again; maybe they'll actually get a response this time.

Between 1940 and 1945, sixty-one German cities with a total population of 25 millions were destroyed or devastated in a bombing campaign initiated by the British government.

The vast majority of that occurred from 1944 onwards. The bombing campaign in 1940-41 was essentially a wasted effort. No significant damage had been done to any of the list of specific targets that had been selected. Most bombs, as the Butt Report and the Germans' own records make clear, were falling on open countryside or well away from the aiming points.

Destruction on this scale had no other purpose than the indiscriminate mass murder of as many German people as possible quite regardless of their civilian status.

False.

Such area bombing raids had notable, though indirect, effects on the German war economy. (See post #1042 and post $1052 earlier in this thread for two examples.)

Here's yet another example. From The Crucible of War 1939-1945 - The Official History of the Royal Canadian Air Force - Volume III by Brereton Greenhous, Stephen J. Harris, William C. Johnston, and William G.P. Rawling:

Of much greater significance... was the extent to which the bomber offensive against Germany constituted a 'Second Front' long before the Allied invasion of Northwest Europe, and even when only Bomber Command was heavily involved in it. In terms of manpower alone, the Germans used between 500,000 to 800,000 workers to repair bomb damage and organize the dispersal of vital industries, labourers who could otherwise have been involved in the direct production of war material, while the Flak arm required some 900,000 men in 1943 and was still 656,000 strong in April 1945 — many of whom might otherwise have played a significant part in the ground war.

The enemy was also forced to allocate considerable equipment to air defence. In March 1942, as the German army was fighting critical battles in Russia and Bomber Command had not yet launched its first 'thousand' raid or its initial battle of the Ruhr, there were already 3,970 heavy Flak guns deployed around German cities which could have been made into mobile artillery or bolstered anti-tank defences in the east. By September 1944 that number had grown to 10,225. Indeed, according to Albert Speer, of the 19,713 88-millimetre and 128-millimetre dual-purpose Flak/anti-tank artillery pieces produced between 1942 and 1944, only 3,172 could be allocated to the army for use in the anti-armour role because of the pressure from air attack. Similarly, the threat posed by Bomber Command's night raids meant that the German night fighter force accounted for a consistently increasing percentage of Luftwaffe front-line strength — more than 20 per cent of the total by December 1944. Several hundred of those on strength in late 1943 and 1944 were machines which could have been used to great advantage in other roles on other fronts.

I'd say the items above had some significant, if indirect, impact on the German war economy and its military capabilities.

Then there's the USAAF's daylight bombing campaign. The destruction of the Luftwaffe's day fighter force was achieved by American effort, and the attacks upon oil and transportation targets were key components in crippling the German economy.


But of course 9/11-investigator and his ilk never have any substantive rebuttals to the foregoing. No, all they can do is play the "Poor little Germany!" card.

 

[MG1962]

Because the Poles refused to cooperate over the Danzig issue.

Well cry me a river. Why was Danzig an issue - Cause Germany lost a war. Dont wanna give up territory or sign crappy peace treaties - Then dont lose wars. But tell me oh ignorant one - how much land did Germany take off Russia as part of the Brest-Litovsk treaty

Getting anywhere over the Norway case? Still waiting for a rebutal of the thesis of Lunde, but my opponents are all so suspiciously silent. Wonder why that is?

Because of your stuperfying ignorance about anything military - whats the point of even trying to explain. You will either nash your teeth and make some uniformed claim about the United Kingdom, or wave your hands in the air and claim the evidence is wrong - without ever showing anything other than your own blog as evidence

 

[Thunder]

if the issue was the parts of Poland that used to be part of Germany, why did Germany conquer half of Poland in 1938 and the rest of it in 1941?

anybody? anybody? Bueller?

 

[TSR]

So what according to you should Hitler have done? Invade Danzig and then hoping the best of it?

.
Ummm. That's exactly what Hitler did.
.

You think the Poles would have accepted that? Of course not.

.
And, indeed, they did not. The defenders of at Westerplatte resisted for a week and only quit because they finally ran out of ammo.


Now, can we get back to that Hitler quote from which you continue to run?
.

 

[MG1962]

So what according to you should Hitler have done?

Stayed out of German politics for a start. A better questions is why did a pip squeak Austrian wanabe care so much about a German city in the first place

 

[Wroclaw]

Getting anywhere over the Norway case? Still waiting for a rebutal of the thesis of Lunde, but my opponents are all so suspiciously silent. Wonder why that is?

Some of us have jobs. Or, you know, we remain convinced that we're right and you're wrong, and given your track record of distorting your sources, we're not terribly concerned about chasing down source material just to go through the same process all over again.

 

[Thunder]

you know what's funny? I can see why someone would consider it unfair for the Sudentenland and heavily German areas being given to Poland & Czechoslovakia.

But to argue that Hitler's ONLY intention was to retake areas of Europe that used to belong to Germany, were heavilg German, and where Germans were suffering from discrimination, is utterly ludicrous and stupid.

....and I'm still waiting for evidence from 9-11I that 750,000 Jews moved to Germany from Poland during the 1930s. eye-poppi)

 

[Tolls]

What the Poles did in 1945, they already intended to do in 1939. The Poles were even dreaming of marching towards Berlin.

I think you'll find that the Poles had nothing whatsoever to do with the redrawing of borders by the Soviet Union in 1945. I mean, if they did then why would they agree to losing the Eastern half of Poland to the Soviets?

No...once again you're talking nonsense.

No surprise, of course, but I just thought I'd highlight it.

 

[9/11-investigator]

And if Hitler accepted Polish annexation of formerly German territory like Posen, then why did he occupy Posen?

If the persecution of the 'Polish' Germans in Poland was the direct reason for invading Poland (as it was) then what do you think would have happened with these Germans if Germany had confined itself to Danzig?

Here again the Russian defense ministery, 2 years ago:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...uses-Poland-of-starting-Second-World-War.html

The Russian defence ministry posted a potentially inflammatory essay on its website which claimed Poland resisted Germany's ultimatums in 1939 only because it "wanted to obtain the status of a great power".

And that is true. The Poles were indeed dreaming of a Poland like it had been centuries ago, when it was hands down the largest state in Europe:

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1600/index.html

Mind you, it was not an ethnic state, like it is now, but a territory 'married together'.

The Russian defense ministery:

"Anyone who has been minded to study the history of the Second World War knows it started because of Poland's refusal to meet Germany's requests," the statement read. "The German demands were very modest. You could hardly call them unfounded."

Indeed they were: 97% of the population wanted back to the Reich. It was not even under Polish rule! Hitler had even proposed that Danzig would remain economically Polish, if it was allowed to return to the Reich. But the Poles wanted lay their agressive hands on a town that had never been theirs, while Hitler merely wanted an overland connection between Brandenburg and East-Prussia to escape the provocations of the Poles, hindering the transfer of goods between the 2 separated German territories.

Appearing to take Germany's demands at face value, the defence ministry insisted that the Nazis were interested only in building transport links across the Polish Corridor to East Prussia and assuming control of Gdansk, which had been designated as a free city at the time.

How true.

Western historians largely recognise that Poland would have lost its independence had it acceded to the demands, pointing to Hitler's policies of Lebensbraum and the creation of a Greater Germany as evidence.

Complete baloney. Why on earth would Poland without the German town of Danzig 'lose it's independence'? And then again this 'Lebensraum' crap, a phrase he wrote when he was a nobody and sitting in prison and Russia was still weak and in state of civil war. From 1933 onwards when he was in power he never referred to this Lebensraum idea anymore. He was scared to death for the USSR. Prove me wrong:

http://www.hitler.org/speeches/

Germany and the Soviet Union then carved up Poland under the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Oh yes, I almost forget: where Hitler merely wanted a non-agression agreement with Stalin, so that Hitler could concentrate on defeating the Polish army, it had been Stalin with his secret annex who had insisted on the division of Poland, much to the utter surprise of Ribbentrop and Hitler. Hitler did not understand that this secret annex would be his deathtrap, since it allowed the USSR to sneak up on Germany while the latter was embroiled in a war with the Western powers, as Stalin correctly anticipated.

Col Kovalev's paper, which appears under a section titled History: Lies and Falsifications, claims that British support for Warsaw caused Poland to "lose all sense of reality."

And that is exactly true! And we remember this remark by Chamberlain after the war during a game of golf with Joseph Kennedy, as reported by James Forrestal: "'Have played golf with Joe Kennedy [US Ambassador in Britain, father of President John Kennedy]. According to him, Chamberlain declared that Zionism and world Jewry have obliged England to enter the war.'". The real origins behind the war gerantee and thus World War 2 were to found in organized international Jewry.

Under the pact the Soviet Union took control of two-thirds of Poland as well as the Baltic states, but only, he wrote, in order to create a buffer zone that would allow Moscow to marshal its defences ahead of an inevitable war with the Third Reich.

That's quit a hilarious remark from the Russian defense ministry official: he forget's to mention that the war between the USSR and Germany was inevitable indeed, since the USSR intended to start it!

 

[9/11-investigator]

I think you'll find that the Poles had nothing whatsoever to do with the redrawing of borders by the Soviet Union in 1945. I mean, if they did then why would they agree to losing the Eastern half of Poland to the Soviets?

Slowly... The Poles were in no position to want anything against the will of Stalin. But Stalin did not mind that the Poles undertook ethnic cleansing to create room for themselves in the west, at the expense of Germany, while the Soviets took eastern Polish territories. Poland was simply shifted eastwards.

 

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator
It was so bad that 757,000 Jews moved from Poland to Germany between 1934-38, even after the persecution of the Jews there had already begun!

evidence please.

 

[Wroclaw]

You flatter yourself. I'm not going to chase down and read yet another book just for you to get yourself bounced and not post again for another month. You are not worth the effort, clearly.