What We Believe But Cannot Prove

excaza said:
Really? I would love to see your evidence for an intelligent creator.
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Look at your keypad, there is your evidence. Or can you explain how it came into existence without being created by an intelligent creator?


No, and neither can you. Maybe it was magical unicorn-pixies. I have equal evidence for that as you do for an intelligent creator. Speculation is not evidence.
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Where is your evidence for unicorn-pixies?


No, it's not a rational conclusion from what he said. Try again.
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I merely considered in a rational way that other creators evolved naturally which created something a bit more exciting than a keyboard. What is irrational about that.
 
punshhh said:
Look at your keypad, there is your evidence. Or can you explain how it came into existence without being created by an intelligent creator?
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Ok, what created this intelligent creator?

Where is your evidence for unicorn-pixies?
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Exactly.

I merely considered in a rational way that other creators evolved naturally which created something a bit more exciting than a keyboard. What is irrational about that.
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That is not what you said.

punshhh said:
Energy seems to be coming out of a gap unless someone can explain what it is!
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We don't know yet. That's a far better explanation than God intelligent creator.
 
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punshhh said:
I read this reference the last time you linked to it, it did not explain what energy is, only what it does.

Let me recap for you where the discussion on this issue had got to the last time I asked what energy is.

Energy = forces/influences acting between atoms/subatomic particles.

Atoms/subatomic particles = energy.

Energy is that which acts on itself.

Existence is forces acting on themselves, resulting in the appearance of something rather than nothing.

So if the energy stopped acting on itself, what would exist? nothing?
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I cannot find a single sentence in there that is correct.
 
punshhh said:
Defining God has become problematic due to the activity of religion.

The original definition, or meaning, is fairly easy to tease out of the confusion.

God is the word used to refer to the collection or set of;

1, The unknown basis of existence(as we know and experience it).

2, The impact of natural forces on this existence from day to day.

The second set is where the problems arise, as primitive folk began to regard nature as an all powerful being toying with us. Killing our crops with drought and wiping us out with violent storms, massive waves(floods) and volcanos etc.
Religion is the cult developed around this issue. Which became perverted as a means of political control of the population.

Point 1, remains.
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"Point 1" never was.
 
punshhh said:
I merely considered in a rational way that other creators evolved naturally which created something a bit more exciting than a keyboard. What is irrational about that.
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Because it requires that, at some point, intelligent beings capable of deliberately creating a universe sprung from nothing.

I realise you try to avoid this point by arguing for some kind of cyclical/infinite or otherwise ill-defined attempt to dodge the problem, but you've never been able to manage it.
 
punshhh said:
I'm not claiming that gods exist, I'm claiming that a rational person can arrive at the position that intelligent creators may be involved in creating existence as we know it.
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First, whether a person is generally rational or not is a separate issue. There are rational people who have irrational beliefs, just as there are irrational people who have rational beliefs.

What you need to be discussing here is whether or not belief in a god is a rational belief. And as it turns out, god beliefs are the quintessential irrational belief: a belief without evidence.



punshhh said:
Please suggest an alternative theory or explanation of the basis of our existence?
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Once again you fall back on the Gap God. You really should quit denying it.
 
punshhh said:
Look at your keypad, there is your evidence. Or can you explain how it came into existence without being created by an intelligent creator?




Where is your evidence for unicorn-pixies?
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People exist and they make things, therefore unicorn-pixies made the Universe.
 
punshhh said:
This is an age old conundrum, the way humans work things out assumes a cause and effect. If existence is the result of something, then there was presumably something from which it came.

Another way of viewing this is that something does not just appear out of nothing, it must always have been.

I have been concerned with this question for many years and I have not come across an answer from the western philosophy or scientific thinking.
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Here is a way out of the trap: God goes back in time and creates Himself.

That said, I'm left feeling that even when a coherent argument and structure can be made, the whole thing boils down to, "so what?"

I would challenge those who adopt the intelligent creation to do a little more to elucidate what exactly that means. How was it done? Can we learn to do it? What would be required? There are so many questions to explore here.

I wonder that curious believers seem to shy away from such stuff. To me it seems as if they don't actually take their notions seriously.

How does the world change if there was an intelligent creation instead of an unintelligent one? Do I have to tack on some worship element to make it relevant?
 
Mashuna said:
Because it requires that, at some point, intelligent beings capable of deliberately creating a universe sprung from nothing.
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Well if there are no intelligent creators, did the known universe of the materialists spring from nothing?

Or is this also a cyclical/infinite existence?

I realise you try to avoid this point by arguing for some kind of cyclical/infinite or otherwise ill-defined attempt to dodge the problem, but you've never been able to manage it.
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I am not dodging this issue I'm pointing out that the materialist outlook on these questions is equally paradoxical.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
First, whether a person is generally rational or not is a separate issue. There are rational people who have irrational beliefs, just as there are irrational people who have rational beliefs.

What you need to be discussing here is whether or not belief in a god is a rational belief. And as it turns out, god beliefs are the quintessential irrational belief: a belief without evidence.
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I do not hold beliefs, I have rationally come to the conclusions I have.


Once again you fall back on the Gap God. You really should quit denying it.
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Existence itself is in gap, it is the human mentality which tries to deny this fact.
 
marplots said:
Here is a way out of the trap: God goes back in time and creates Himself.

That said, I'm left feeling that even when a coherent argument and structure can be made, the whole thing boils down to, "so what?"
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Yes I agree, I subscribe to a different philosophy regarding these questions. In the end it makes little difference.

I would challenge those who adopt the intelligent creation to do a little more to elucidate what exactly that means. How was it done? Can we learn to do it? What would be required? There are so many questions to explore here.
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Again I agree, its fascinating stuff.

I wonder that curious believers seem to shy away from such stuff. To me it seems as if they don't actually take their notions seriously.
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They probably shy away from discussing these notions on forums like these, because of the accusations of irrationality, or of believing fairytales etc, from skeptics to be found here.

How does the world change if there was an intelligent creation instead of an unintelligent one? Do I have to tack on some worship element to make it relevant?
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The only change might be a nuance of perspective on our position in existence.
 
punshhh said:
My point is that your keypad was created by an intelligent creator known as a human. This is a fact, I can't see any other way that keyboards could have come to exist.
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Clearly in your confirmation bias quest you failed to consider the evidence in the link I posted,
Making Genetic Networks Operate Robustly: Unintelligent Non-design Suffices (starts at ~minute 4, after the intro)
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Here's the direct link: Making Genetic Networks Operate Robustly: Unintelligent Non-design Suffices . Or was it over your head? Let me sum it up for you. Life lacks some very specific characteristics of being designed.


Nor does the Universe have characteristics of being designed. You have nothing. You have a failed gap god hypothesis and nothing more.
 
punshhh said:
Well if there are no intelligent creators, did the known universe of the materialists spring from nothing?
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I give up. Did your "intelligent creator" spring from nothing?


punshhh said:
I am not dodging this issue I'm pointing out that the materialist outlook on these questions is equally paradoxical.
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No it isn't. In one case you have evidence and an answer still being explored and in the other you invoke 'magic' as the explanation.
 
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