Merged Cold Fusion Claims

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Tell you what. You want science from Rossi? Then you and the *skeptics* talk the US Patent office into giving him the patent he asked for, so that in the event he's real, his intellectual property is protected. That's what he's said he's waiting for. And if it is indeed a scam, what harm could that do? What harm could issuing a patent on a scam do? Seriously. :jaw-dropp

That is a red herring and you know it. He could have made his "invention" open, inclusive secret cataliser in a patent application on his own, get the usual rejection, and then contest and propose a working device, which would have made the patent accepted. Heck even PPM or FE device are patentable *IF* one provide a working device. that is the catch. But Rossi pretend he has *A* working device (or more depending ont he article and time of day).

The problem is that you can't have "sooper sekreet" ingredient in a patent, you have to make it fully open so that a person of art can reproduce the gizmo covered by the patent. And as to why Rossi don't want to get his own stuff protected and keep all udner wrap when it arranges him, but widespread info when it also arrange him, your guess is as good as mine. My guess is fraud :D.
 
LOL!

If you actually have $1,000,000 in assets that you are willing to risk, here's the deal I will accept. I put $1000 in cash into an escrow account. You put a verifiable million in assets (cash, diamonds, gold, property deeds, etc) in the same mutually agreed upon account. We draw up an agreement where if in one year Rossi's claim to have achieved what's being described as cold fusion isn't obviously true (i.e, no MW power plant or something equally convincing), you get the entire contents of the account. But if there is a power plant generating a MW or similar proof that his e-cat works, I get the contents of the account. No "might give". Only *will give*.

Still game? :D

You insist on a sure thing?
 
Of course not. Money in escrow will still get a return ... be invested in T-bills, for example. Diamonds will still appreciate. So will property. :D

Diamond never appreciate. That is one of the side of the de beer scam. Just by buying one, you immediately depreciate it by at least 50%, and never get back your ivnestement.

just sayin' as a derail.

Carry on.

ETA: you still did not say why we should go for the propesct of gaining 0.1% by betting with you. That is the same flaw as many free energy proponent claiming the skeptic are so cock sure they should bet. the problem is that there is no reason whatsoever to bet if there is NO GAIN for us.

Now a 1 to 1 bet or one in our favor, yeah sure.
 
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I for one do not think he is a fraud at this point, I do thing he is using questionable ways to measure his data. He could just be mistaken.

That's possible. But the more other scientists and engineers who are directly involved in witnessing and testing during these demonstrations (and I bet there have been other demonstrations that are not public knowledge), the less likely that seems. I've seen enough names, now, that I'm just not as certain as most of you folks (you excluded, DD) that this is a fraud or bogus. In fact, my gut tells me this is real. So as I said in my first post on this thread, I think Rossi and his investors are going to be VERY wealthy and VERY famous (his name will be a household word) VERY soon. And I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is ... but you have to make it worth my while. :D
 
Diamond never appreciate.

Fine. I won't accept diamonds ... unless you want to put in escrow one of the Crown Jewels or Elizabeth Burton's baubles. ;)

you still did not say why we should go for the propesct of gaining 0.1% by betting with you.

Just to take some of my money? Afterall, you think it's a *sure thing*. :D

Now a 1 to 1 bet or one in our favor, yeah sure.

Looks to me like you're not quite as *certain* as you pretend. I guess you could say I'm now skeptical about your certainty. :p
 
What harm would be done by giving a patent to what you claim is a scam? Hmmmmmm? :D

Well for one because many scam TOUT they have a patent, and thus can much more easily take in people which do not realize patent means deadly squat on the validity of the item.

But much more important you can't have a patent with a secret catalysator. So the reason he would not be able to get a patent is NOT because of the skeptic but because of Rossi himself.

But much more important he would have to demonstrate that his stuff work, OR camouflage his patent so that the office do not sniff a cold fusion scheme patent.

The problem are Rossi's , not ours.
 
Fine. I won't accept diamonds ... unless you want to put in escrow one of the Crown Jewels or Elizabeth Burton's baubles. ;)



Just to take some of my money? Afterall, you think it's a *sure thing*. :D



Looks to me like you're not quite as *certain* as you pretend. I guess you could say I'm now skeptical about your certainty. :p

It is not about beign certain, I am open minded to have an error.

It is about of such a bet having *NO BENEFIT AT ALL* for me to take.

Why should I take a bet , even a no risk bet, if I can't withdraw any benefit out of it ?


I am sorry but i would be stupid to go in a bet where I get no money out of it. A 1 to 1 bet is OK. A 1 to 1000 ? get real.
 
Emet

In #1218 you respond to unclep2k

This tells me nothing. I'm not going to wade through your link; nor am I going to research the people you mentioned, and what exactly they may believe.

So I started researching these people myself, and chose at random John Bockris as my first project. What exactly John Bockris "may believe" seems quite extraordinary, or at all events he keeps strange company, judging by a paper

Neutrons, Polyneutrons, Composition of Polyneutrons: Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LET), Alchemy, Chemistry.*By Roberto A. Monti and Gerardina A. Cesarano Monti, of the Monti America Corporation.

h t t p ://w w w .lowenergytransmutations.org/documents/ICCF-10%20Neutrons%20Polyneutrons,%20Composition%20of%20Polyneutrons_%20.pdf

Abstract ( ... ) We show then the Experimental Method and the results of:
1) Transmutation of Mercury into Gold by means of Acetic Acid.
2) Transmutation of Lead into Silver through ignition of Metallic Salts.
3) Transmutation of Thorium and Uranium into Stable Elements through ignition of Metallic Salts.

Extract: Transmutation of Lead into Silver through ignition of Metallic Salts.*
On April 1992 John Bockris invited R. A. Monti to join and witness experimental tests suggested by Joe Champion (The Philadelphia Project).

The first test showed immediately what was going on: it was clearly an attempt to replicate the Twelfth Key of the dry way to the Philosopher stone of Basil Valentine. Bockris and Champion knew very little about Alchemy. Fortunately April is the right season for Transmutations. Consequently the experiments showed definitely - during April and May - the production of Gold and other Noble Elements from the ignition of a mixture of Metallic Salts and other Elements.

I researched Joe Champion as well, and obtained some fascinating info on his collaboration with Bockris. See h t t p ://w w w .nuscam.com/champion.htm

Bockris bit when Champion proposed testing his theories at A&M ( ... ) In 1992 the two led a newly formed research team called the Philadelphia Project.

Champion had mastered the highbrow vernacular of nuclear physics, but his experiments were almost laughably crude: As he later described in his book Creating Precious Metals at Home, Champion would fill a coffee can with shavings of various base metals and put a torch to it. After two months of "research," Bockris suggested Champion's process could lead to transmuting worthless material into gold. ( ... )

Champion, meanwhile, got a five-year term for bilking two Arizona men of $150,000 in a South American gold-smuggling scheme.

From jail in Phoenix, Champion put together a new research team. Investors eventually lost more than $250,000 following Champion's Betty Crocker-style recipes for "nuclear synthesis."

Having a collaborator banged up in the slammer on charges of gold smuggling seems to be a common occupational hazard encountered by cold fusion researchers. It happened to Rossi as well, earlier in his eventful career, as I relate in my #1172, page 30 of this thread.

Now I'll research some more of the people on unclep2k's list.
 
What harm would be done by giving a patent to what you claim is a scam? Hmmmmmm? :D

The scammer could use the patent as a sort of badge of authenticity, an official stamp of approval issued by the government. The scammer could use the false legitimacy a patent provided to impress the rubes and sucker them out of their cash.

Happens all the time.

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Google translation not the best, but this article is by one of the scientists on team at bologna university that is evaluating the ecat. http://www.socialnews.it/ARTICOLI2011/ARTICOLI201105/fusione.html

Funny, :D Not even close!

I remeber enough italian from college to see what, no data, no evidence, a bunch of allusions and metaphors before it even went through google translator.

That page is not evidence it is a freaking prose essay.
The attitude of the scientist should never be to deny a priori an Event. It should rather be to declare, if that does not have, at present, a scientific explanation. Science, in short, has done less to deny that claim.

From the days of the ill-fated "cold fusion" of Fleischmann and Pons (1989), the scientific community is divided. A minority (which for convenience we will call "the Mad") insists that something is going on, in those experiments, and that something, though much lower than initially announced, was worth studying. A large majority (Sani) states, however, the total inconsistency of the phenomenon. In the next two decades, the information channels of Matti have repeatedly shown abnormal energy emissions, under different conditions and are difficult to control with varying degrees of reliability. Only factor common to almost all of these anomalies was that occurred in hydrogenated or deuterated metals: palladium and nickel, for example. These metals act as "sponges" of hydrogen (or deuterium) capture hydrogen atoms in the cage formed by their nuclei and absorb the single electron among those that form the structural links of the metal itself (technically, the valence electrons).

Why do we talk about issues "abnormal"? Because the power produced in these events is much higher than expected from chemical reactions. Nuclear reactions, then? No, because simple calculations and experimental evidence on 'naked nuclei' (not part of a solid structure) show that such nuclear reactions are so improbable as not to provide any practical effect. A nice dilemma, then. Unless they think of a giant scam trans-national Matti, or their total incompetence in carrying out the measurements. For the benefit of Sani, played until recently that these issues were often elusive and difficult to repeat, very intense, perhaps, but largely unpredictable. Therefore, difficult to categorize as a fact. Facts should be distinguished from events: the former are repeatable and controllable, the second place and nothing else. From Galileo onwards, the scientist takes care of the first and second hesitate to speak of. Throughout history, however, many events have been traced back to the category of events: lightning, meteors, comets, volcanoes, earthquakes. Even the Biblical manna (it seems). For this reason, the attitude of the scientist should never be to deny a priori an Event. It should rather be to declare, if any, that it does not have at present a scientific explanation. Science, in short, has done less to deny that claim.

Turning to the specific situation, until a few years ago, was that the anomalous emission of energy is presented as events (a bit 'like the Virgin Mary that weep tears of blood), which exposes them to doubt their authenticity ( Without a doubt it is real, an event can be simulated and manipulated) or otherwise practically impossible to ascertain the cause-effect chain, which includes an essential condition, the repeatability of the experiment. Today, the situation is radically changed. Studies by Sergio Focardi (Department of Physics, University of Bologna), first in collaboration with Francis Piantelli (University of Siena), then continued alone have led to a moderateemission of energy from Hydrogenated Nickel, , which can not beexplained in simple chemical terms. Recent times, a device invented and patented by Andrea Rossi, always based on the nickel hydrogen, has enabled us to produce a much higher heat output, which varies from 25 to 40 Kwatt, compared with a release of electrical power in the order hundreds of watts. To be clear: the power needed to keep burning some incandescent bulbs, you get that absorbed 10 and 20 washing machines. The duration of the emissions over the course of ten hours, and none has yet found a trace of exhaustion. The effect is reproducible and verifiable.

In practice, we have moved from the Event Fact from "is" the "is measured." A group of researchers from the Department of Physics, University of Bologna (Ennio Bonetti, Enrico Campari, Giuseppe Levi, Mauro Villa and I), as well as Sergio Focardi (retired as Professor Emeritus) can now study the equipment so Rossi continued and deepened. There are offers for the first time, a real opportunity to see clearly. Determine precisely how the phenomenon takes place (hence the importance of repeatability and controllability), it is expected that, sooner or later emerge and also why. Since it is established, what makes it fascinating is that the effect does not exist, to date, a convincing explanation: what is the "fuel" that produces excess energy? How much time will be consumed? Nuclear energy really got to do? This is the curiosity of the scientist, the first and best spring possible toward a serious investigation. Then there is the possibility of a huge economic and environmental impact. What more? For once, I think really the case to listen to Matti.

Um still no effect demonstrated, no still water bath, just the assumption there is an effect.

Italics are my amendments to the google translation.

I don't know why it translated 'naked nucleus' as 'household naked'.
 
Dancing David

I don't know why it translated 'naked nucleus' as 'household naked'

In Italian both "household" and "family" are expressed by "famiglia", so maybe the translation has something to do with the "nuclear family", in which "excess heat" is indeed frequently generated.
 
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