Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[zeb]

Can someone answer this question, I cannot for me under stand, why the police mess up the house, after, all people lived there, and the pictures that I saw upstairs before, was it was very neat, and tidy.
The after pictures when police have been though the house was a mess, avery big mess.
I can under stand, police going through Meredith room, with a toothbrush, and that goes for the same with Amanda bedroom, even with Filomena bedroom, but why did the police left it a very big mess.

 

[Katody Matrass]

So previously I did a timeline based on innocence. I have done a lot of reading since then and I think I have got the guilty version offered by the Court and Prosecutor nailed down, please don't blame me if it doesn't make sense.

8:30ish Rudy arrives at the cottage and does something then hangs about the basketball court until 11:30.
9:56 - Meredith arrives back at the cottage, rings her mother, then changes her mind, goes and eats a mushroom instead.
9:10 – Amanda and Rafaelle leave his home heading towards the cottage
9:20 Amanda and Rafaelle arrive at the square and start discussing something
9:00 – 11:30ish – Meredith messes about in her room, reading a book before putting it back in her bag, fiddling with her phones.
11:20 – Amanda and Rafaelle leave the market square and head to the basketball courts where they met Rudy.
11:20 – 11:30 – Amanda, Rafaelle, and Rudy talk and decide to head to the cottage and get Meredith to join them in an orgy at knife point
11:30 - Amanda, Rafaelle, and Rudy head to the cottage, Rudy takes a drink of juice then heads to the bathroom, forgetting to flush.
11:35 - Amanda, Rafaelle, and Rudy head into Meredith's room and attack her, stabbing her. She screams.
11:40 – Amanda and Rafaelle run from the cottage. Rudy goes to the bathroom and gets towels and returns, attempting to stop the bleeding. He pulls off Meredith's jeans and touches her privates.
11:50 – Meredith dies, Rudy rifles through Merediths handbag, but doesn't take anything, then leaves, tracking diluted blood from the bedroom to the front door.
Time Unknown - Amanda and Rafaelle return to the Cottage. Rafaelle enters Meredith's room, pulls her top up, and cuts off her bra, he gets blood on his foot.
Time Unknown – Amanda goes into Filomeana's room and "trashes it". Rafaelle hops to the bathroom stepping onto the bathmat and then cleaning his foot in the shower.
Time Unknown – Amanda cleans up her bloody footprints, but not Rudy's. Rafaelle goes outside and find a suitable rock.
Time Unknown – Amanda and Rafaelle throw the rock through the window to stage the break-in, and scatter the glass about the room. Amanda gets some glass in her shoe as she does this.
Time Unknown – Amanda enters Meredith's room, covers Meredith, then takes the €300, the cellphones, and Meredith's keys, the glass from her shoe is left behind. She leaves, locking the door.
Time Unknown – Amanda and Rafaelle leave heading back to his place, leaving the front door open as they do. They discard the cellphones on the way.

If anyone thinks that they can offer suggestions for things I have missed or gotten wrong, suggestions, along with evidence, would be handy.

It's a precise reconstruction, yet it's interesting how little sense this timeline makes. I think this and the current Sarah Scazzi case shows how easily arguing ToD and timelines can turn out futile for the defence - prosecution and the court can simply exchange the ToD and make up a timeline even more absurd - Scazzi case shows there are no limits to the absurdity that can be accepted.

 

[RoseMontague]

So previously I did a timeline based on innocence. I have done a lot of reading since then and I think I have got the guilty version offered by the Court and Prosecutor nailed down, please don't blame me if it doesn't make sense.

8:30ish Rudy arrives at the cottage and does something then hangs about the basketball court until 11:30.
8:56 - Meredith arrives back at the cottage, rings her mother, then changes her mind, goes and eats a mushroom instead.
9:10 – Amanda and Rafaelle leave his home heading towards the cottage
9:20 Amanda and Rafaelle arrive at the square and start discussing something
9:00 – 11:30ish – Meredith messes about in her room, reading a book before putting it back in her bag, fiddling with her phones.
11:20 – Amanda and Rafaelle leave the market square and head to the basketball courts where they met Rudy.
11:20 – 11:30 – Amanda, Rafaelle, and Rudy talk and decide to head to the cottage and get Meredith to join them in an orgy at knife point
11:30 - Amanda, Rafaelle, and Rudy head to the cottage, Rudy takes a drink of juice then heads to the bathroom, forgetting to flush.
11:35 - Amanda, Rafaelle, and Rudy head into Meredith's room and attack her, stabbing her. She screams.
11:40 – Amanda and Rafaelle run from the cottage. Rudy goes to the bathroom and gets towels and returns, attempting to stop the bleeding. He pulls off Meredith's jeans and touches her privates.
11:50 – Meredith dies, Rudy rifles through Merediths handbag, but doesn't take anything, then leaves, tracking diluted blood from the bedroom to the front door.
Time Unknown - Amanda and Rafaelle return to the Cottage. Rafaelle enters Meredith's room, pulls her top up, and cuts off her bra, he gets blood on his foot.
Time Unknown – Amanda goes into Filomeana's room and "trashes it". Rafaelle hops to the bathroom stepping onto the bathmat and then cleaning his foot in the shower.
Time Unknown – Amanda cleans up her bloody footprints, but not Rudy's. Rafaelle goes outside and find a suitable rock.
Time Unknown – Amanda and Rafaelle throw the rock through the window to stage the break-in, and scatter the glass about the room. Amanda gets some glass in her shoe as she does this.
Time Unknown – Amanda enters Meredith's room, covers Meredith, then takes the €300, the cellphones, and Meredith's keys, the glass from her shoe is left behind. She leaves, locking the door.
Time Unknown – Amanda and Rafaelle leave heading back to his place, leaving the front door open as they do. They discard the cellphones on the way.

If anyone thinks that they can offer suggestions for things I have missed or gotten wrong, suggestions, along with evidence, would be handy.

BwaHaHarHa

It doesn't make sense and I do blame you.

The next morning is key with the bleach, Quintavalle, and the pesky mop. Don't forget the staging of the water spill and the changing of the mop heads. ..There should be something about hard drugs and one of Raffaele's knives as well as covering the body. I also see that you are going for a staging of the sexual assault with the bra cut off after Meredith had died and I don't think that works with the evidence. Needs some fine tuning. (Just kidding on the blaming you part).

 

[RoseMontague]

Can someone answer this question, I cannot for me under stand, why the police mess up the house, after, all people lived there, and the pictures that I saw upstairs before, was it was very neat, and tidy.
The after pictures when police have been though the house was a mess, avery big mess.
I can under stand, police going through Meredith room, with a toothbrush, and that goes for the same with Amanda bedroom, even with Filomena bedroom, but why did the police left it a very big mess.

Clearly there is a lack of professionalism and training. I would like to know if the mess was made by the forensics team from Rome or the locals. My guess is that most of it is due to the locals. Who has a picture of the dumpster they used to get rid of the mess? It shows lack of respect for the crime scene and lack of respect for the belongings of others.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Does anyone know if the hallway down to Amanda and Meredith's bedrooms, and the bathroom is carpeted or not?

 

[RoseMontague]

Does anyone know if the hallway down to Amanda and Meredith's bedrooms, and the bathroom is carpeted or not?

No carpet anywhere that I recall, just some throw rugs.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

They could have gotten a chair or a ladder but I suppose that would raise some serious red flags to a passerby, nix that idea!
They could have tried to climb in themselves but they might have gotten cut, leaving blood and DNA, or they might have snagged fibers from their clothes, nix that idea too!
It would be a real pain in the ass, as you say, to simulate the break in naturally and be seen or leave evidence. What stager in their right mind would even conceive of going outside to try and climb the wall if they had just committed murder? No way! They would remain behind closed shutters and away from view and do the best they could to make the break in look real.

This exemplifies the arse-backwards logic which Massei and Mignini resorted to in order to try to jack up a decent prosecution case.

The obvious way to stage a break-in is to just break in. The obvious way to argue that a staged break-in is possible is just to suggest that they could have faked a break-in by breaking in.

However the problem for Massei, Mignini and the guilters is that it's not good enough for them to make out that the break-in could have been staged. That would be equally compatible with their innocence and their guilt. The prosecution need to fabricate some story to the effect that the break-in must have been staged.

Thus we get these bizarre convolutions involving throwing rocks from inside the house at magical angles, along with somewhat forced incredulity about the way the actual rock landed and the actual glass broke.

The amount of time and effort they expended to make it look like a staged break-in so that it would fool an accident reconstruction expert like Ron Hendry is remarkable considering all they had to do if they wanted to make it 'real' was go through the process of throwing the rock through the window and having someone climb in. Amanda was a rock climber, Raffaele might have been able to do it to. Even if not, if they wanted to simulate it all they would have had to do is get something to stand on, a helluva lot easier than just about any theory of the staged break-in I've seen.

Randi frequently stated that if Uri Geller was bending spoons using psychic powers he was doing it the hard way, because you could get exactly the same effect using trickery.

Raffaele and Amanda sure faked a break-in the hard way, if they faked a break-in at all.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I have been thinking about Pasquali's reconstruction

What's wrong with taking them as they come? I've never implied that anything is particularly compelling.

I'm familiar with the rhetorical technique you are trying to employ here. Boring.

I ain't playin' your game. Sorry.

Quadraginta,

I have no idea what rhetorical technique you mean, nor I am playing a game. I agree with Draca that the debate around the break-in must be adequately addressed for the appeal to be successful. Please feel free to offer your opinion on Sgt. Pasquali if the spirit so moves you.

 

[Fine]

Sarah Scazzi update: More Evidence?

The usual. More rope. More stains. More Luminol. And more denials from Sabrina and her mom, Cosima.
The good news. The florist who saw Sabrina and her mom throw Sarah into Cosima's car? Ummm, the florist now thinks maybe that was just a dream.

///

 

[Rolfe]

The one thing we know Meredith did do was eat a piece of mushroom, or it was forced into her mouth. There was a fragment of mushroom in the opening of the lower stretch of her esophagus, in a state of non-digestion. (Dr. Lalli autopsy report, Massei p. 115) I've never known what to make of this given the mere seconds food is present in the esophagus after swallowing. What is your opinion? Did she pop a mushroom into her mouth and was simultaneously stabbed before the swallowing could finish? Or could it have been partly regurgitated during her ordeal? If so could it still be described as in a state of non digestion?

That's very interesting. In my only semi-professional capacity, I'd say it would be unlikely for anyone to be able to force someone to swallow a piece of mushroom without there being some mushroom caught on the teeth. If Meredith had swallowed it voluntarily, as you say, she would have had to have been killed within a ridiculously short time for it not to have reached her stomach.

My big question there is, was the mushroom raw or cooked, and was there any mushroom lying around in the flat? I could see someone just returning home, and seeing some raw mushroom, snacking on a small piece. Or even, for some bizarre reason, a murderer forcing his victim to swallow a piece that was close at hand (though bear in mind what I said about the teeth in that case). Either scenario seems very implausible though.

If the mushroom was cooked, and if there was mushroom in the pizza (pretty likely, but do we know?), then it seems to me to be a no-brainer that it was partially regurgitated during the struggle, or even slipped into the oesophagus through the relaxing cardiac sphincter after death.

Which merely underlines the fact that the time between eating the pizza and death was relatively short.

Rolfe.

 

[Katody Matrass]

That's very interesting. In my only semi-professional capacity, I'd say it would be unlikely for anyone to be able to force someone to swallow a piece of mushroom without there being some mushroom caught on the teeth. If Meredith had swallowed it voluntarily, as you say, she would have had to have been killed within a ridiculously short time for it not to have reached her stomach.

My big question there is, was the mushroom raw or cooked, and was there any mushroom lying around in the flat? I could see someone just returning home, and seeing some raw mushroom, snacking on a small piece. Or even, for some bizarre reason, a murderer forcing his victim to swallow a piece that was close at hand (though bear in mind what I said about the teeth in that case). Either scenario seems very implausible though.

If the mushroom was cooked, and if there was mushroom in the pizza (pretty likely, but do we know?), then it seems to me to be a no-brainer that it was partially regurgitated during the struggle, or even slipped into the oesophagus through the relaxing cardiac sphincter after death.

Which merely underlines the fact that the time between eating the pizza and death was relatively short.

Rolfe.

IIRC the "mushroom" could have been a piece of apple from the dessert girls ate in the middle of the movie. There is no conclusion. Defence asked to test it in the first trial, judge refused. (Again I'm going from memory here).

 

[Danceme]

[CODE][CODE]

[/CODE][/CODE]

Yikes! I'd say you have questions!

I take it you weren't very convinced by the reconstruction by Ron Hendry and the numerous probable answers to those questions in this and previous threads? That stuff bores me to tears personally, especially as I don't see what it has to do in the slightest with Raffaele or Amanda being involved in the murder. There's no evidence they were responsible for any of that, and I'm quite frankly not all that interested in retracing Rudy Guede's movements footstep by footstep as he kills a poor girl and cleans himself up. I'm leaving that part out of my 'movie.'

Are you of the opinion that without any evidence whatsoever Raffaele and Amanda were responsible for them, it still somehow implicates them? What if Rudy had done a real clean up, would that damn both Raffaele and Amanda automatically? Are you deeply suspicious of the covert operations of the lamp as well?

You know, they only tested the toilet paper for Rudy's DNA, the dump in the bowl went untested, thus it might be Raffaele's or Amanda's!



What makes you think they were blood? Do you think Stefanoni lied about seeing the chemiluminescence pattern? Because if she didn't, then they can't be blood, they wouldn't glow like that if they were diluted to less than 1:1M (million) to fail the TMB test. If she lied about that, it would imply she not only failed to mention the negative TMB test, she also deliberately deceived the jury in order to pretend those footprints could have been blood. Being as they also could have found a way to attribute Amanda or Raffaele's foot to my avatar if they wanted to with that pattern of mendacity, doesn't that implicate the prosecution more so than the lovebirds cuddling a half-mile or so away?



It's kinda like the difference between spilling water on your carpet that has a splash of soda and maybe looks a little cloudy and dumping a glass of pure coke on it. You can scrub up the latter as best you can, but there might still be a bit of a stain, whereas the former you could probably let dry and never notice.

I'm not here to argue guilt, just to see if it's possible to ascertain what really happened, although you have indicated the actual details don't interest you.
I don't think Stefanoni lied, neither does Frank Svarzo. She did not have any reason to lie. I don't buy the whole scared for her job thing. A negative TMB test happens 50% of the time.

That's very interesting. In my only semi-professional capacity, I'd say it would be unlikely for anyone to be able to force someone to swallow a piece of mushroom without there being some mushroom caught on the teeth. If Meredith had swallowed it voluntarily, as you say, she would have had to have been killed within a ridiculously short time for it not to have reached her stomach.

My big question there is, was the mushroom raw or cooked, and was there any mushroom lying around in the flat? I could see someone just returning home, and seeing some raw mushroom, snacking on a small piece. Or even, for some bizarre reason, a murderer forcing his victim to swallow a piece that was close at hand (though bear in mind what I said about the teeth in that case). Either scenario seems very implausible though.

If the mushroom was cooked, and if there was mushroom in the pizza (pretty likely, but do we know?), then it seems to me to be a no-brainer that it was partially regurgitated during the struggle, or even slipped into the oesophagus through the relaxing cardiac sphincter after death.

Which merely underlines the fact that the time between eating the pizza and death was relatively short.

Rolfe.

There was a package of mushrooms in Meredith's fridge and it was reported there were no mushrooms on the pizza. I guess she snacked on a mushroom when she got home, giving her at least some limited time in the cottage before the attack. After a full meal like she had it seems unlikely she got through the door and immediately felt like eating something. If Rudy were in the bathroom at this point he may have tried to wait it out hoping she would leave again. Perhaps she surprised him when going to check her laundry. Perhaps she noticed the cold draft coming from the broken window in Filomena's room and started turning on all lights to investigate. Perhaps we'll never know unless he confesses.

 

[Dan O.]

So previously I did a timeline based on innocence. I have done a lot of reading since then and I think I have got the guilty version offered by the Court and Prosecutor nailed down, please don't blame me if it doesn't make sense.

...
9:10 – Amanda and Rafaelle leave his home heading towards the cottage

This time was directly contradicted in court by by the hard evidence of the time stamp for the opening of Naruto on Raffaele's computer at 9:26. The prosecution's expert simply claimed it didn't happen because they didn's see it. Massei never even mentions Naruto in his report.

 

[Danceme]

IIRC the "mushroom" could have been a piece of apple from the dessert girls ate in the middle of the movie. There is no conclusion. Defence asked to test it in the first trial, judge refused. (Again I'm going from memory here).

Those were theories bandied around on forums. I don't recall any actual trial information where the defense requested a test and the judge refused. It was even discussed as being a piece of mushroom by Raffaele's expert.

 

[PhantomWolf]

IIRC the "mushroom" could have been a piece of apple from the dessert girls ate in the middle of the movie. There is no conclusion. Defence asked to test it in the first trial, judge refused. (Again I'm going from memory here).

This is one of the things that throws up a huge red flag for me (ETA: not meaning this one in particular, but the things reported in the court summary). Massei repeatedly rejected requests by the defense to allow them to test the Prosecution's scientific claims. To me this is very poor; even if it causes the trial to be extended to cater for that testing, the defence at any trial should be given the change to examine the evidence using the best people it can find to do so. If the case is strong, then it will stand up regardless of the defence investigations, and if the defendant is in prison on remand, well they aren't going anywhere while that testing is done.

I get the feeling from reading his report that Massei had already made up his mind before the end of the trial and just didn't want the Defence's experts to muddy the waters by giving them access to the evidence.

 

[RoseMontague]

Sarah Scazzi update: More Evidence?

The usual. More rope. More stains. More Luminol. And more denials from Sabrina and her mom, Cosima.
The good news. The florist who saw Sabrina and her mom throw Sarah into Cosima's car? Ummm, the florist now thinks maybe that was just a dream.

///

Thanks Fine. Yep, they tested the car and found zip. Now it must have been a dream. The florist is being investigated for perjury. Cosima and Sabrina still in prison unfortunately. For them, it is a nightmare.

 

[lane99]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best
You forgot the dancing man and "I win again!". Otherwise, very good.

Alt's avatar is a dancing man.

Ha, so it is. Funny.

 

[Chris C]

This is the explanation I've seen here, which I find immensely more convincing than Massei's assumption that the footprint was directly trekked into the bathroom and his implication that the intermediate prints must therefore have been cleaned up. Apart from anything else, the other prints in blood are all shoeprints, not bare footprints.

The killer got some blood on one leg of his trousers, and realised that if he went on his way without doing something about it, it would be a rather obvious indication of his deed.

The footprint, in blood/water mix, is from him rinsing this blood away in the bathroom. The rear part of the print is not from the outer side of the foot, but from the hem of the trouser leg after doing so, when he placed his bare foot on the mat with the heel raised - although the position of this "tail" of the print suggests the outer edge of the foot, when you look closely, it has an irregular outline which is unlike a normal footprint.

I think the assumptions made by the prosecution, the Massei court, and the pro-guilt supporters about this footprint illustrate the superficial nature of the "investigation" and the court verdict.

My theory of the footprint, is if he in fact did rape her, then he couldn't do it with his pants on or at the min buttoned up. So if he got blood on himself while doing the deed, he probably would have wanted to wash it off before putting/pulling his pants back on/up. Thus Guede would have walked in the bathroom cleaned himself up left a bloody footprint on the rug while drying off and then redressed before leaving the bathroom.

 

[lane99]

...They decided shortly after the murder that Amanda was guilty. From that point on, all evidence was viewed through the filter that Amanda must be guilty. A break in didn't make sense if Amanda was guilty, therefore the break in must be fake...

Agreed. Getting the supposed "staged" burglary to implicate Knox and the boyfriend relies more than anything on circular logic.

 

[Danceme]

This is one of the things that throws up a huge red flag for me (ETA: not meaning this one in particular, but the things reported in the court summary). Massei repeatedly rejected requests by the defense to allow them to test the Prosecution's scientific claims. To me this is very poor; even if it causes the trial to be extended to cater for that testing, the defence at any trial should be given the change to examine the evidence using the best people it can find to do so. If the case is strong, then it will stand up regardless of the defence investigations, and if the defendant is in prison on remand, well they aren't going anywhere while that testing is done.

I get the feeling from reading his report that Massei had already made up his mind before the end of the trial and just didn't want the Defence's experts to muddy the waters by giving them access to the evidence.

Ok, I'd like to employ an oft used tactic on this board and ask you to list these repeatedly rejected requests.
I can only bring to mind the last minute request to test the stain on the pillowcase, which was refused, and which the defense had known existed for many months without requesting the test.
How many more rejected requests were there like this?