I often don't mind being a p-zombie

westprog said:
And even our memories of being conscious could be erroneous.
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That applies to memories of anything.

So according to you, our memories of being conscious of existence are no more reliable than our memories of going to the bathroom 4 minutes ago.

But ... that seems pretty reliable to me.
 
"Conscious" vs. Self-aware conscious

This is the I think, therefore I am, or I think that I think, therefore I am.

The former, simpler, is called the pre-reflective cogito. It is you being conscious, experiencing subjective conscious experiences, but not thinking about yourself so that you are not currently being aware that you are alive.
 
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rocketdodger said:
I was thinking about this the other day when I drove almost all the way to work without having any "I" pop into my head. And I realized that I often spend lengthy amounts of time without an "I." When I am speaking with someone, for example, and actually listening to what they are saying, there is seldom an "I." When I am playing a video game, there is seldom an "I." In fact, there is no "I" more often than not.

And it isn't so bad.

Anyone else?

When you think about it, that "I" is only there when you think about it. Try to grok that.
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You're right. It's almost like The Game: You only lose when you think about it.
 
westprog said:
If the video is one of the special HD types that can record consciousness, then that would do it. Otherwise, the only way we know we've been conscious is that we remember being conscious. And even our memories of being conscious could be erroneous.
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No need for HD quality recording, even a 1950s tape deck can be used. Just record me chatting away acting in every single way as if I was concious but interfere with the brains ability to create memories and hey presto evidence I was concious even though I can't remember it.
 
May be a tall order, but anyone want to define "aware", "conscious", and "I" as we're using them here?

I thought a p-zombie was a physically normal person who lacks conscious experiences. The way I understand that term I have conscious experiences almost all the time. When I'm driving to work and not explicitly thinking about my own consciousness I'm still having conscious experiences, just not the kind of conscious experiences that involve thinking about my own consciousness.
 
phantomb said:
May be a tall order, but anyone want to define "aware", "conscious", and "I" as we're using them here?

I thought a p-zombie was a physically normal person who lacks conscious experiences. The way I understand that term I have conscious experiences almost all the time. When I'm driving to work and not explicitly thinking about my own consciousness I'm still having conscious experiences, just not the kind of conscious experiences that involve thinking about my own consciousness.
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"I" am that which is not everything else.:boxedin:
 
What you can't be logically sure of is whether everybody else is a p-zombie.
Maybe they are all moving images in your imagination, and have no consciousness like yours.

However it's pointless to ponder that, as there's no proof possible. You might as well act as if you do believe in a tangible reality which exists in itself independently of when you are and are not aware of it, and that other people have consciousness like yours - because even IF it's all just a movie in your own mind, it's an easier and more natural way to relate to the illusion. For normal humans (who have empathy) it's an effort to keep believing all others are p-zombies.
 
But the main question in the thread seems to be are you a p-zombie when you are aware of external matter, such as when driving or programming (at least afterwards you know you were sufficiently aware of it to do it without crashing the car) but as far as you remember, you were not aware of being aware of your Iness.

In other words, the question seems to be "do I switch in and out of being a p-zombie even when awake and doing something competently?"
By awake, I mean an observer friend will tell you later that you seemed to be awake, and anyway you know you were at least seemingly awake, if not conscious, as you didn't fall off your chair.

For me, there is always self awareness when I'm awake - not awareness of someone who is looking at "I" but awareness of my awareness of the external thing I focus on.
I guess I'm saying that awareness of something other, such as the road or the program you are writing IS awareness of self - just that at that time, the self you are is the screen that stuff is on.
When properly focussed on a task, at your most efficient, "you" should almost disappear, just being a pure transparent container of the subject matter. It's what zen monks try to teach - "polishing your mirror". A perfect mirror is invisible - you only see the reflected image.

But even in that state you are not a p-zombie. One of those is not only never conscious of itself, it is also never conscious of anything external to it, such as the task at hand.
 
phantomb said:
May be a tall order, but anyone want to define "aware", "conscious", and "I" as we're using them here?

I thought a p-zombie was a physically normal person who lacks conscious experiences.
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It was meant to be a philosophical slam on behaviorsism, a p-zombie has all the behaviors of consciousness, yet is not conscious.
 
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