Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[BenBurch]

I would think just one verified incident of excess heat would get the attenion of the scientific community. Why it is difficult to replicate is what you want to discover. Especially with it being a potential cheap, clean source off energy. Isn't that what you people do? Or do you just want to study stuff that already fits your textbook mold.

Yeah, and every time you subject these supposed excess heat incidents to scrutiny you find error. Look, nobody who is arguing that this is fraud is stupid; We have seen numerous total wastes of time in the last 25 years that all looked just like this one, except for the carnival barker nature of the Rossi fraud.

 

[unclep2k]

Not true. I'm not writing specifcally about Rossi, but there have been many scientific papers on lenr published. You can find many at http://www.lenr-canr.org/ . Bob Bush, Rob Duncan, Edmund Storm, Dennis Bushnell, Mike Mckubre, John Bockris, Peter Hagelstein,Pamela Mosier-Boss,Piantelli are just a few on a long and growing list of scientists that now believe in Low energy nuclear reactions.

 

[unclep2k]

But I wll say that a lot of scientists that do believe are not sure it will ever lead to a commercial development or if it is something that won't scale up. It deserves research funding because of it's potential.

 

[Psiload]

But I wll say that a lot of scientists that do believe are not sure it will ever lead to a commercial development or if it is something that won't scale up. It deserves research funding because of it's potential.

Research funding? As in taxpayer dollars? My dollars?

Feel free to pony up your own dough. A fool and his money...

 

[BenBurch]

That line of argument doesn't cut it - does not intellectually rise to the bar. It does not matter how many people "believe" in something. Many people "believe" in a god or gods, after all, but we know they are wrong. What matters is whether you can tell me how to produce an identical effect in my own laboratory, and what matters is whether that effect shows any net energy production at all when scrutinized.

 

[BeAChooser]

Research funding? As in taxpayer dollars? My dollars?

Feel free to pony up your own dough. A fool and his money...

http://www.freeenergytimes.com/2011...-to-set-up-factory-for-building-rossi-e-cats/

An article in the Greek publication Express reports that Defkalion Green Technologies has acquired all permits required begin production of energy catalyzers invented by Andrea Rossi. The company bought an old factory in Xanthi, Greece and invested €200 million to get it ready to produce the E-cats. Defkalion has exclusive rights to sell to the Greek and Balkan markets.

Andrea Rossi explained in a radio interview on Coast to Coast AM that Defkalion is to date the only licensee of the technology and would remain so until the 1 MW plant that will power the Xanthi factory is operating. Rossi also said that he would not be receiving any funds from Defkalion until the power plant is working correctly.

In the interview he explained the reason he was taking this approach:

“I said to myself I had to arrive not with a theory or with a toy on a table. I have to arrive with a product. In fact we will begin to earn money in October after the successful start up of the plant of one megawatt. Until that moment all the moment on the table has been and will be my money. The only money that has been risked is my money. This way I have cut all the voices about this guy is trying to make some trick, etc, etc. Any attempts to diminish the importance of the technology has been foiled. Because it is clear if somebody puts all his money in a thing if this is a trick he is just tricking himself. The rules are very clear here. Money will change hands only if the plant will work. No good work, no money for anybody and a loss of money for me.”

That's some lucrative scam he has going ...

 

[unclep2k]

That line of argument doesn't cut it - does not intellectually rise to the bar. It does not matter how many people "believe" in something. Many people "believe" in a god or gods, after all, but we know they are wrong. What matters is whether you can tell me how to produce an identical effect in my own laboratory, and what matters is whether that effect shows any net energy production at all when scrutinized.

Thats exactly what the research is for.

 

[BenBurch]

And it's all failed.

 

[Jimmy42]

I would think just one verified incident of excess heat would get the attenion of the scientific community. Why it is difficult to replicate is what you want to discover. Especially with it being a potential cheap, clean source off energy. Isn't that what you people do? Or do you just want to study stuff that already fits your textbook mold.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

[unclep2k]

ZZZZZZzzzz

 

[Horatius]

I would think just one verified incident of excess heat would get the attenion of the scientific community. Why it is difficult to replicate is what you want to discover. Especially with it being a potential cheap, clean source off energy. Isn't that what you people do? Or do you just want to study stuff that already fits your textbook mold.

Except that, an "effect" that shows up intermittently, in conjunction with questionable experimental procedures, is a hallmark of an "effect" that doesn't actually exist in reality. This is why we keep asking the pro-Rossi faction to quantify the experimental errors. If the errors are large, you'd expect such extraneous "positive" results more often than if the errors were small.

That Rossi and his supporters refuse to quantify the error margins of his experiments just make him look worse, because of this.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

I would think just one verified incident of excess heat would get the attenion of the scientific community. Why it is difficult to replicate is what you want to discover. Especially with it being a potential cheap, clean source off energy. Isn't that what you people do? Or do you just want to study stuff that already fits your textbook mold.

You call 'unsolved mysteries' every time you forget you left the iron on?

 

[Craig B]

BeAChooser

If I were you I wouldn't take it for granted that it can't be a scam because Rossi's risking only his own cash and will receive no return until working e-cats are on the market - at which time children suffering from cancer will also benefit, of course.

Is it inconceivable that if Rossi is a scammer, he is also capable of telling untruths about his sources of finance? There's some disquieting evidence for this possibility in a Swedish source, which appears to contradict Rossi's assurances about not having received any money yet:

h t t p : //w w w.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3179019.ece

-Craig Cassarino, vice president of Ampenergo, when did you sign the agreement?
Cassarino: We signed it two months ago.
-Why did you form a new company?
Cassarino: We formed Ampenergo, because Ampenergo and LTI (Leonardo Technologies Inc) involve different people and they are separate companies that do completely different things. *LTI is an energy engineering and consulting firm, while Ampenergo will be focused on developing and commercializing the Energy Catalyzer.
-How much do you pay for the agreement?
Cassarino: Unfortunately that’s confidential.
-Have you paid anything to Rossi yet?
Cassarino: Yes we have.
-How much?
Cassarino: Let’s put it like this, it was an important piece of the equation.
-Have you searched new funding?
Cassarino: Absolutely, we are in current conversations with some very large companies here in the US and South America, some investment companies, because it’s not just a technology we’re creating in the industry here. ( ... ) That’s what makes this very exciting. So you now there’s never enough money to make everything happen.

Apart from direct investment in the e-cat there are other possible ways it could be a scam, eg circulating phoney scientific evidence to boost the value of shares in companies owning patents in relevant fields, as part of a "pump and dump" operation, or commodity speculation in nickel (of which Greece is a major producer) ... But who knows? Anything is possible.

 

[Aepervius]

http://www.freeenergytimes.com/2011...-to-set-up-factory-for-building-rossi-e-cats/



That's some lucrative scam he has going ...

Steorn said the same thing, INCLUDING helping africa thirsty kids with a pump. We all know how it turned out.

I don't care what Rossi says he will do , actually the exact same schema as steorn giving money to Africa, and not accepting financement. Others said the exact same word. All I care are his action up to now, the poor results presented. We can all also speaks of the "future" until we run blue in the face, but all we have as data points is what Rossi did up to now. And that does not look too much in his favor.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

commodity speculation in nickel (of which Greece is a major producer)

Good point. Certainly plausible and not something I had thought of. Any nickel producing country would have an economic boom, at least in the short term, if nickel went the way of silver or gold. A few well financed investors with some inside knowlege can make a killing in metal trading. It's been done in the metal markets before, notably by a certain 'scientist' who got caught playing with the gold market not that long ago.

I was working on the hypothesis that he was using nickel because it's probably one of the easiest materials to get or make in 'nanoparticle' form. It wouldn't do to claim that your device contained a substance that material science couldn't make or that was rare enough to be trackable. First you'd have to show your process for making the nano-unobtainium, or at least prove you had some. Too many folks would call for you to immediately put up or shut up. With nickel, nanoparticles are stovetop chemistry (for certain values of stovetop, ideally including a fume hood if you plan to use the carbonyl route, and at least some gloves and a face shield for raney nickel).

 

[Dancing David]

I would think just one verified incident of excess heat would get the attenion of the scientific community. Why it is difficult to replicate is what you want to discover. Especially with it being a potential cheap, clean source off energy. Isn't that what you people do? Or do you just want to study stuff that already fits your textbook mold.

Psst, where was it verified?

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

Psst, where was it verified?

I think the 'verification' is when the water flow is checked by crude methods, the device emits some saturated steam for a while, then they do some backof the envelope calculations assuming that the water flow didn't vary for hours, and plugging in the values for superheated steam. In reality, as soon as there are bubbles in the line, flow goes way way down, and wet steam comes out. Just like you'd expect from a device drawing 400 watts. (assuming the second heating element, the one to cool and stop the reaction in an emergency isn't also on...)

No attempt to put the device in a calorimeter. No attempt to make an accurate and continuous measurment of inflow. No attempt to make an accurate measurement of steam quality, no attempt to condense the steam and measure actual quantity of water evaporated. Just a 'hey look, water flows into the pitcher' followed by 'hey look it makes steam'. So does the hot-pot I use in my office to make tea. It draws about 400 watts, by the way. If I had some nickel powder in it, it'd still boil water.

This stuff is grade school physical science, maybe grade 7 or 8. Unless things have severely deteriorated, by that point a student should be familiar with calorimetry, steam, heating elements, all sorts of fun stuff. I'd expect an actual 'scientist' to at least adhere to a standard of practice that a grade school science class can manage.

As another random aside, I notice that the 'byproduct' of the 'nuclear reaction' is copper. There's probably no better material than copper if you plan to hide something in a nickel alloy. Pure nickel looks like pure nickel. 95% copper with five percent nickel looks like pure nickel. Nickel has very high coloring power in alloys and will overpower any of the colored metals. The 'nickel' coin in your pocket, at least for USA currency, is mostly copper. It still looks like nickel though. It won't assay as nickel. If I say 'here's some pure, specially treated magic nano-nickel, see as I put it in the reactor' it could have an awfully high percentage of copper and still look like pure nickel. Then you pull it out at the end of the 'reaction', send it off to the metallurgist, and pretend surprise at the copper content. I haven't seen anywhere where Rossi has offered samples of the catalyst BEFORE the reaction.

 

[Emet]

Not true. I'm not writing specifcally about Rossi, but there have been many scientific papers on lenr published. You can find many at http://www.lenr-canr.org/ . Bob Bush, Rob Duncan, Edmund Storm, Dennis Bushnell, Mike Mckubre, John Bockris, Peter Hagelstein,Pamela Mosier-Boss,Piantelli are just a few on a long and growing list of scientists that now believe in Low energy nuclear reactions.

This tells me nothing. I'm not going to wade through your link; nor am I going to research the people you mentioned, and what exactly they may believe.

But I've seen this a lot in the medical field. Some researcher publishes some very preliminary paper about an in vitro or animal study about a potential avenue of treatment for cancer. The mainstream media reports about it. The researcher and others says it's promising. But it may take decades to determine whether it will even pan out, or have some practical use in the treatment and outcome of cancer patients.

ZZZZZZzzzz

How does this contribute to the discussion?

 

[BeAChooser]

I'm just curious. Given all that is currently known, would any of you take the opportunity to invest a $1000 in Rossi's venture for a small share of future profits? If Rossi's is for real, that $1000 would probably be worth millions just a few years from now? So how risk averse are you skeptics?

 

[unclep2k]

This tells me nothing. I'm not going to wade through your link; nor am I going to research the people you mentioned, and what exactly they may believe.

But I've seen this a lot in the medical field. Some researcher publishes some very preliminary paper about an in vitro or animal study about a potential avenue of treatment for cancer. The mainstream media reports about it. The researcher and others says it's promising. But it may take decades to determine whether it will even pan out, or have some practical use in the treatment and outcome of cancer patients.



How does this contribute to the discussion?

I don't think it matters what anyone says you guys won't read the lenr research offered, you completely have your minds made up. I'm sure if the one meg plant comes online you will just think that is a fraud also. You won't believe in lenr until your grandmother buys one to cut her utility bills.