Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Tolls]

Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.

That's not really how they work, you know...

 

[Grassy Knowlington]

I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. ....

I am sorry to hear that. Are they diagnosed as Autistic or Aspergers? There's quite a spectrum from a mildly Aspergers condition to what is usually labelled Autistic.

 

[Travis]

I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. Where is your skepticism? You actually think 22 different vaccines couldn't screw up a baby's brain.

Do you have any evidence it did screw up anybody's brain?

Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.

No. No they are not live diseases. And they do have specific dosages.

What freaking disease goes directly into the blood stream and directly into the brain? I guess the closest thing in nature would be snake venom and we all know how that works out. And then there's mosquitoes injecting malaria into the bloodstream.

Vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream.

 

[excaza]

I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. Where is your skepticism? You actually think 22 different vaccines couldn't screw up a baby's brain.

Could they? Sure. Did they? No.

Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.

Not surprisingly, the anti-vaxxer doesn't know how vaccines work.

What freaking disease goes directly into the blood stream and directly into the brain?

See, here I was hoping we would get some diseases that go directly to the brain, but alas...

I guess the closest thing in nature would be snake venom and we all know how that works out. And then there's mosquitoes injecting malaria into the bloodstream.

Another argument from ignorance. Most of the deadly venoms are neurotoxins, which means they affect the nerves. They don't go 'directly into the brain.' Sure, they end up in the brain, because that's sorta where your blood goes, but they generally hit your heart and lungs first unless you get bit in the carotid.

Oh, and malaria? It goes to the liver. Derp.

Surely you could have picked something that actually targets the brain? There's plenty. Heaven forbid you do some research instead of playing crackpot roulette and hope something sticks.

 

[Grassy Knowlington]

....they are not live diseases....

.

Travis, this is a bit of a grey area to some. To quote from Wikipedia:

Some vaccines contain live, attenuated microorganisms. Many of these are live viruses that have been cultivated under conditions that disable their virulent properties, or which use closely-related but less dangerous organisms to produce a broad immune response; however, some are bacterial in nature. They typically provoke more durable immunological responses and are the preferred type for healthy adults. Examples include the viral diseases yellow fever, measles, rubella, and mumps and the bacterial disease typhoid. The live Mycobacterium tuberculosis vaccine developed by Calmette and Guérin is not made of a contagious strain, but contains a virulently modified strain called "BCG" used to elicit an immune response to the vaccine. The live attenuated vaccine containing strain Yersinia pestis EV is used for plague immunization.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Where is your skepticism?

I've been sceptical of your claims all along.

You actually think 22 different vaccines couldn't screw up a baby's brain.

Once again, I don't form opinions just by thinking. There's a thing called "research" that needs to tag along.

Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.

What freaking disease goes directly into the blood stream and directly into the brain? I guess the closest thing in nature would be snake venom and we all know how that works out. And then there's mosquitoes injecting malaria into the bloodstream.

If there's no indications vaccines cause autism, then no, I don't think they cause autism. That's how scepticism works: "there is no evidence cars can fly, so I do not believe they can fly". Or, "there is overwhelming evidence washing your hands makes you healthier, so I believe washing your hands makes you healthier". Your approach seems to be more along the lines of "Are you seriously saying that after a hundred years, we still haven't made flying cars?! That's an outrageous claim, of course every car built after the year 2000 must be able to fly! You've fallen prey to the lies of Big [insert politically incorrect industry here]".

Have you spotted the difference yet?

 

[Kestrel]

Reading the comments in a Huffington Post thread about vaccines I came across a scientific journal attempting once more to link childhood vaccinations to autism. The author simply makes the point that cases of autism went up at the same time as vaccination rates. Never mind the multiple studies that showed no link between childhood vaccinations and autism.

A Positive Association found between Autism Prevalence and Childhood Vaccination uptake across the U.S. Population

Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part A: Current Issues
Volume 74, Issue 14, 2011, Pages 903 - 916
Author: Gayle DeLonga​

The same HP thread also has people claiming that vitamin C cures polio.

It seems that eradicating the woo surrounding a disease is almost as hard as eradicating a disease.

 

[Travis]

Travis, this is a bit of a grey area to some. To quote from Wikipedia:

Okay, they are not the disease that they are being inoculated against. Sometimes it does work to provoke an immunological response to a deadly virus by exposure to another similar but less deadly virus. I believe that was how the Smallpox vaccine worked.

 

[Tolls]

Okay, they are not the disease that they are being inoculated against. Sometimes it does work to provoke an immunological response to a deadly virus by exposure to another similar but less deadly virus. I believe that was how the Smallpox vaccine worked.

Cowpox.
At least, that was how it was discovered, being the association between milkmaids and resistance to smallpox...or something along those lines. Then cowpox was used for the innoculation. Whether it still is I couldn't say without googling.

 

[Grassy Knowlington]

Okay, they are not the disease that they are being inoculated against. Sometimes it does work to provoke an immunological response to a deadly virus by exposure to another similar but less deadly virus. I believe that was how the Smallpox vaccine worked.

Agreed but to some people this just says 'it may be weaker but how do know it's not going to make you ill'. To which the answer is 'well, it may make you ill for a while and some people may be affected badly for all sorts of reasons but the population as a whole benefits'. Unfortunately in my experience of dealing with anti-vaccination believers this just opens up a huge can of worms.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Reading the comments in a Huffington Post thread about vaccines I came across a scientific journal attempting once more to link childhood vaccinations to autism. The author simply makes the point that cases of autism went up at the same time as vaccination rates. Never mind the multiple studies that showed no link between childhood vaccinations and autism.

A Positive Association found between Autism Prevalence and Childhood Vaccination uptake across the U.S. Population

Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part A: Current Issues
Volume 74, Issue 14, 2011, Pages 903 - 916
Author: Gayle DeLonga​

The same HP thread also has people claiming that vitamin C cures polio.

It seems that eradicating the woo surrounding a disease is almost as hard as eradicating a disease.

You should research the parameters of the studies you value so highly.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Agreed but to some people this just says 'it may be weaker but how do know it's not going to make you ill'. To which the answer is 'well, it may make you ill for a while and some people may be affected badly for all sorts of reasons but the population as a whole benefits'. Unfortunately in my experience of dealing with anti-vaccination believers this just opens up a huge can of worms.

If you've read my posts you're aware that the participants of the "studies" are the healthiest 40%. It bothers me that the unhealthiest 60%, the majority, are not part of the studies. I understand the why but do the studies REALLY PROVE that vaccines are safe for the majority of the children? If there is a problem with a vaccine doesn't it stand to reason the healthier children would not be affected?

 

[TSR]

If there is a problem with a vaccine doesn't it stand to reason the healthier children would not be affected?

.
If the problem is the vaccine, then no, it doesn't stand to reason.

If the problem one is investigating is whether a given drug causes liver problems, does it make sense to exclude those who already have such problems?

Of course it does.

If the problem one is investigating is whether a vaccine causes general health problems, does it make sense to exclude those who already have such problems?

Of course it does.
.

 

[ladmo]

The problem as I see it is the word" mandatory". In my state, it is mandatory that children are immunized for various diseases if they wish to attend public schools. That is a problem.

 

[beren]

The problem as I see it is the word" mandatory". In my state, it is mandatory that children are immunized for various diseases if they wish to attend public schools. That is a problem.

Why is it a problem that is against the law to spread deadly disease?

Also, should parents have the right to kill their children through neglect?

 

[000063]

Tell me about your bs facts. Show me a study of the numbers of autistic children who didn't receive vaccinations.

I'm curious, what are your falsifiability conditions? What evidence would you need to see to accept that vaccines do not cause autism? Can you give just one example of what you would accept?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Why is it a problem that is against the law to spread deadly disease?

Also, should parents have the right to kill their children through neglect?

Measles, Chicken Pox, and Rubella were never deadly diseases in the 50s or after doctors started washing their hands.

History of Smallpox & Polio Vaccines

England was the first country in the world to adopt COMPULSORY vaccination. After about 40 years of COMPULSORY vaccination, Britain suffered the worst smallpox epidemic in its entire history with the highest death rate in history. This is but one among thousands of instances of the failure of smallpox vaccination to prevent smallpox, but it should have been enough to convince the most case hardened advocate of vaccination of the futility of the practice. In addition to being a failure as a preventive, the vaccine produces a whole train of evil side effects and iatrogenic [drug caused] diseases. It is kept alive only because of the enormous profits that are derived from the practice. pp 431-32

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi/noframes/read/8803

 

[ladmo]

Why is it a problem that is against the law to spread deadly disease?

Also, should parents have the right to kill their children through neglect?

The false dychotomy of assuming the spreadingof a disease if not inoculated is notated. My child was allergic to certain vaccines due to an anaphylaxis condition. There was no way I would give him the required vaccine just so a paranoid condition could be satisfied. He never contracted any of the diseases the vaccines were targeting...

 

[fullflavormenthol]

I'm going to go out on a limb and question the legitimacy of rumormillnews as a source.

 

[000063]

I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. Where is your skepticism? You actually think 22 different vaccines couldn't screw up a baby's brain.

See, there you go again, equating possibilites with facts.

Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.

Except they're not. Live, I mean.

What freaking disease goes directly into the blood stream and directly into the brain? I guess the closest thing in nature would be snake venom and we all know how that works out.

Toxin != disease, as medical professionals who specialize in either will readily tell you. You can overdose on tap water, but that doesn't mean it's not safe to drink.

And then there's mosquitoes injecting malaria into the bloodstream.

http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=7451

IIRC, skeeters contaminate, not actively inject. Do you do research on anything you say, or does it just spew forth like a babbling brook?