Vaccine/autism CT discussion

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I might've said this before. But if I have, it bears repeating.

Know what I hate about this particular conspiracy theory? It's perhaps the only conspiracy theory that can actually kill people.

I usually spend my forum time arguing against 9/11 Truthers. They're offensive, disrespectful, loudmouthed, stupid, annoying, cultlike oafs who destroy their own lives to satisfy their needs for attention. But they aren't dangerous in the life-or-death sense of the word. The worst I've seen them to is convince gullible people to abandon friends and families so they can run off and do Twoof crap. Which is bad, sure, but they still have their lives. JFK and moon hoax CTs are even less harmful.

But these vaccine CT's.

No.

These vaccine CT's...they are what make me wish there weren't laws against nonlethal assault & battery. They are what make me question the otherwise unquestionable First Amendment. These cancerous tumors on society suck gullible people into their fold, using lies, weasel-words, and Twoofisms...they suck people in, and then they kill them and their children.

I don't know what kind of body count the Vaccines-Cause-Autism CT has racked up over the years, but I have a feeling it's higher than the death toll of every other conspiracy theory combined. These people make me sick. Whenever I hear the phrase "faith in humanity" I declare that I am an atheist. What a bunch of ****.
 
1337m4n said:
I might've said this before. But if I have, it bears repeating.

Know what I hate about this particular conspiracy theory? It's perhaps the only conspiracy theory that can actually kill people.

I usually spend my forum time arguing against 9/11 Truthers. They're offensive, disrespectful, loudmouthed, stupid, annoying, cultlike oafs who destroy their own lives to satisfy their needs for attention. But they aren't dangerous in the life-or-death sense of the word. The worst I've seen them to is convince gullible people to abandon friends and families so they can run off and do Twoof crap. Which is bad, sure, but they still have their lives. JFK and moon hoax CTs are even less harmful.

But these vaccine CT's.

No.

These vaccine CT's...they are what make me wish there weren't laws against nonlethal assault & battery. They are what make me question the otherwise unquestionable First Amendment. These cancerous tumors on society suck gullible people into their fold, using lies, weasel-words, and Twoofisms...they suck people in, and then they kill them and their children.

I don't know what kind of body count the Vaccines-Cause-Autism CT has racked up over the years, but I have a feeling it's higher than the death toll of every other conspiracy theory combined. These people make me sick. Whenever I hear the phrase "faith in humanity" I declare that I am an atheist. What a bunch of ****.
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Maybe you should wake up and view the tip of the iceberg.

Or do you think all of these incidents are imagined?

Seizures, convulsions & vaccines

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/seizures.html

[2009 Sept] Two thousand schoolgirls suffer suspected ill-effects from cervical cancer vaccine Within four days of the third injection in March of this year, Stacey suffered an epileptic seizure, followed by 17 more in the following week. She has now been diagnosed with a brain injury, caused by inflammation of the brain, and is being treated in an NHS rehabilitation unit in Birmingham, which helps her with basic tasks like making a sandwich. Seizures are minimised by five types of medication, but her memory is badly damaged. The family has been given no explanation for how the damage occurred. Mrs Jones, 44, said: "She was such a lovely, happy go-lucky girl, now she is just a shell. "When we go to see her, she can't remember what she has just eaten for tea. The impact on her and all of us has been absolutely devastating. I feel she has been used as a guinea pig."
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I have a friend who can't get a flu shot or a tetanus shot because of the reaction. She's 40. What happens to a toddler or younger baby when he or she gets a REACTION?
What happens when a baby has an unobserved seizure?

[1998] Weibel et al Acute Encephalopathy Followed by Permanent Brain Injury or Death Associated With Further Attenuated Measles Vaccines: A Review of Claims Submitted to the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program A total of 48 children, ages 10 to 49 months, met the inclusion criteria after receiving measles vaccine, alone or in combination. Eight children died, and the remainder had mental regression and retardation, chronic seizures, motor and sensory deficits, and movement disorders.

When a vaccine or series of vaccines are given and a child develops a seizure minutes later or even several days later, there is no question that the vaccine triggered the seizure. Multiple seizures indicate a severely inflamed brain and emergency procedures need to be implemented. In many cases, the seizures can be silent, that is, they have other neurological or behavioral expressions, such as irritability or periods of confusion, rather than an obvious convulsion. (Blaylock, RL. JAN A 2003;6:10-22.) Treatment means more than just prescribing anti-seizure medications, since this only masks the true process going on in the child's brain, that is, severe brain inflammation and excitotoxicity. Vaccine Safety Manual by Neil Z. Miller.
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1337m4n said:
I might've said this before. But if I have, it bears repeating.

Know what I hate about this particular conspiracy theory? It's perhaps the only conspiracy theory that can actually kill people.

I usually spend my forum time arguing against 9/11 Truthers. They're offensive, disrespectful, loudmouthed, stupid, annoying, cultlike oafs who destroy their own lives to satisfy their needs for attention. But they aren't dangerous in the life-or-death sense of the word. The worst I've seen them to is convince gullible people to abandon friends and families so they can run off and do Twoof crap. Which is bad, sure, but they still have their lives. JFK and moon hoax CTs are even less harmful.

But these vaccine CT's.

No.

These vaccine CT's...they are what make me wish there weren't laws against nonlethal assault & battery. They are what make me question the otherwise unquestionable First Amendment. These cancerous tumors on society suck gullible people into their fold, using lies, weasel-words, and Twoofisms...they suck people in, and then they kill them and their children.

I don't know what kind of body count the Vaccines-Cause-Autism CT has racked up over the years, but I have a feeling it's higher than the death toll of every other conspiracy theory combined. These people make me sick. Whenever I hear the phrase "faith in humanity" I declare that I am an atheist. What a bunch of ****.
Click to expand...

Oh man, I so hear you. Think of it: what's just about the worst thing in the whole world you can call someone, worse than murderer, rapist, Hitler-lover, or anything else? Baby killer, right? And yet, here we are, talking about people who are fully prepared to put millions of babies' lives at risk. And for what, really? To satisfy their twisted, perverse need to feel superior, to tell themselves they know something the rest of us don't, by talking smugly and confidently about a subject they don't even being to remotely understand.

When I think of someone like Jenny McCarthy, and how by the cold light of logic, reason, and mathematics the world would quite literally be better off if she were dead (or, as a less violent alternative, would at least just shut her impossibly stupid mouth), it may make me rather queasy and uncomfortable to harbor such thoughts. But I cannot argue with the underlying truth of the situation.

Some people want to be stupid. OK I get it. So long as the only victims of their willful stupidity are themselves, I say go for it, knock yourself out, whatever gets you through the day and all that. But when your stupidity endangers lives -- especially those of babies and children who have no choice in the matter -- well, all I can say is that I cannot fathom how such a person can live with themselves.
 
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Stellafane said:
Oh man, I so hear you. Think of it: what's just about the worst thing in the whole world you can call someone, worse than murderer, rapist, Hitler-lover, or anything else? Baby killer, right? And yet, here we are, talking about people who are fully prepared to put millions of babies' lives at risk. And for what, really? To satisfy their twisted, perverse need to feel superior, to tell themselves they know something the rest of us don't, by talking smugly and confidently about a subject they don't even being to remotely understand.

When I think of someone like Jenny McCarthy, and how by the cold light of logic, reason, and mathematics the world would quite literally be better off if she were dead (or, as a less violent alternative, would at least just shut her impossibly stupid mouth), it may make me rather queasy and uncomfortable to harbor such thoughts. But I cannot argue with the underlying truth of the situation.

Some people want to be stupid. OK I get it. So long as the only victims of their willful stupidity are themselves, I say go for it, knock yourself out, whatever gets you through the day and all that. But when your stupidity endangers lives -- especially those of babies and children who have no choice in the matter -- well, all I can say is that I cannot fathom how such a person can live with themselves.
Click to expand...

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/seizures.html

In case you missed it the people discussed are victims.


I have a friend who can't get a flu shot or a tetanus shot because of the reaction. She's 40. What happens to a toddler or younger baby when he or she gets a REACTION?
What happens when a baby has an unobserved seizure?
Click to expand...
 
Clayton Moore said:
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/seizures.html

In case you missed it the people discussed are victims.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you think what you've posted is any sort of reply. It appears to consist primarily of links to unverified anecdotes in which claims are made that various forms of health problems followed the administration of a vaccination -- with little proof that the former caused the latter. None of it provides even a single atom of proof that vaccines cause autism, which after all is the topic of this thread.

I don't know what your motivation is for doing something like this -- indeed, as I stated in my previous post, I can't even understand why anyone would do this. All I can say is that to me, this behavior is indistinguishable from someone who has no interest in determining or discussing the truth; they simply want to tell themselves they're winning an argument. The problem is, such activity is essentially the same as playing a game in which no one else is participating -- and still losing very badly.
 
And still he ignores Wakefield's vaccine patent in favour of unverified anecdotes and lies...........
 
catsmate1 said:
And still he ignores Wakefield's vaccine patent in favour of unverified anecdotes and lies...........
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I think it's a exercise in simply wanting to believe something, and then contriving a reason for doing so. Think of it: The original presumed connection between autism and vaccines was based on the whole themiserol thing, and the similarities between the symptoms of mercury poisoning and autism. So they phase out themiserol, but instead of going down autism diagnosis rates continue to rise (probably because we're just better at recognizing the symptoms, although some consider the jury still out on that one). But instead of accepting that vaccines never had anything to do with autism, the anti-vaxers now seem to be focusing on some hypothetical process in which vaccines damage the immune system, thus resulting in autism -- as if autism were the result of immunodeficiency, a link for which I've seen zero evidence.

For some people, it seems to come down to this: they know vaccines cause autism, so it doesn't really matter what the data does -- or doesn't -- show. And based on that, they're prepared to put millions of babies at risk. The ignorant and deluded are to be pitied; but those who insist upon remaining willfully so, at the potential expense of innocent young lives, are reprehensible beyond expression.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/seizures.html
I have a friend who can't get a flu shot or a tetanus shot because of the reaction. She's 40. What happens to a toddler or younger baby when he or she gets a REACTION?
What happens when a baby has an unobserved seizure?
Click to expand...
In case you missed it the people discussed are victims.
Click to expand...

Babies can be born with all sorts of potential reactions to things. Of course we only find out about them when they actually have these reactions. But I suppose we should go the safer course and just keep all babies in a plastic bubble just in case.
 
Stellafane said:
I think it's a exercise in simply wanting to believe something, and then contriving a reason for doing so. Think of it: The original presumed connection between autism and vaccines was based on the whole themiserol thing, and the similarities between the symptoms of mercury poisoning and autism. So they phase out themiserol, but instead of going down autism diagnosis rates continue to rise (probably because we're just better at recognizing the symptoms, although some consider the jury still out on that one). But instead of accepting that vaccines never had anything to do with autism, the anti-vaxers now seem to be focusing on some hypothetical process in which vaccines damage the immune system, thus resulting in autism -- as if autism were the result of immunodeficiency, a link for which I've seen zero evidence.

For some people, it seems to come down to this: they know vaccines cause autism, so it doesn't really matter what the data does -- or doesn't -- show. And based on that, they're prepared to put millions of babies at risk. The ignorant and deluded are to be pitied; but those who insist upon remaining willfully so, at the potential expense of innocent young lives, are reprehensible beyond expression.
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So because people were not questioning the vaccine but the themiserol. When the themiserol was eliminated the vaccine gets a pass? Good thinking.

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/seizures.html

Maybe you should take the time to read all of those links.
You think those people have some nefarious agenda?


In April 2010, an ATAGI - TGA joint working group was established to provide advice to the Chief Medical Officer on adverse events following the 2010 trivalent seasonal influenza vaccine (TIV). In September 2010, this group was reconvened to re-examine the rate of febrile convulsions following administration of the monovalent pandemic H1N1 influenza vaccine, Panvax/Panvax Junior (CSL) in young children, and in particular, to address the following questions:
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You do realize that reconvened to re-examine the rate of febrile convulsions means that a significant number of events are needed to freaking reconvene anything.




As at 17 September 2010 the TGA had received a total of 48 unique reports of febrile convulsions in children aged less than 5 years who had received Panvax or Panvax Jnr. Each of these cases (the numerator) were carefully reviewed to ensure that a consistent case definition was applied and that the timeframe and age range of the cases (numerator) used in the analysis were consistent with those used in determining the number of doses administered (the denominator)
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I've never witnessed a febrile convulsion and I hope no one here has or will. How many have gone unseen by a parent downstairs while their toddler is "sleeping" 10 or 12 hours a day?


http://www.whale.to/vaccine/feds9.html

Feds checking post-vaccine seizures in young kids

(AP) – 1 day ago

Jan 20, 2011

ATLANTA (AP) — Government officials are investigating an apparent increase in fever-related seizures in young children after they got a flu shot.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration on Thursday said there have been 36 confirmed reports of seizures this flu season in children ages 6 months through 2 years. The seizures occurred within one day after they were vaccinated with Fluzone, the only flu shot recommended in the United States for infants and very young children. Ten of the children were hospitalized, but all recovered.
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How does anyone know if the potential of a 6 month old baby has been damaged or not?


In August, a U.S. vaccines advisory panel said doctors should avoid using that vaccine, made by CSL Biotherapies, in children ages 6 months through 8 years.
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In the US, the flu season is October through May.

Does this mean that the advisory was ignored?
Jan 20, 2011

ATLANTA (AP) — Government officials are investigating an apparent increase in fever-related seizures in young children after they got a flu shot.
Click to expand...

WTF Vaccines causing health problems to young children, serious health problems, is not conspiracy theory, it's reality.
Click to expand...
 
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I don't know what kind of body count the Vaccines-Cause-Autism CT has racked up over the years, but I have a feeling it's higher than the death toll of every other conspiracy theory combined.
Click to expand...
Here's a primer: http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html

At the time of writing, 79 365 cases of preventable illnesses, of which 727 resulted in deaths. This is contrasted with 0 cases of autism found to have been caused by vaccination.
 
Clayton Moore said:
So because people were not questioning the vaccine but the themiserol. When the themiserol was eliminated the vaccine gets a pass? Good thinking.
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Actually, it's quite good thinking, since there's no evidence that vaccines cause autism, and no reason to believe they even can once you've eliminated the thermiserol angle (which, although totally unproven, at least was quasi-plausible). So yes, they get a total pass unless someone can suggest why they shouldn't -- which thus far no one has. Don't forget, it's up to the anti-vax folks to prove the link to autism, not up to everyone else to disprove it.


Maybe you should take the time to read all of those links.
You think those people have some nefarious agenda?
Click to expand...

No, I just think they're woefully ignorant and attach vastly more gravitas to their uninformed opinions than is merited -- which, when one considers that the lives of innocent children are at state, might indeed be accurately described as nefarious after all.


You do realize that reconvened to re-examine the rate of febrile convulsions means that a significant number of events are needed to freaking reconvene anything.

I've never witnessed a febrile convulsion and I hope no one here has or will. How many have gone unseen by a parent downstairs while their toddler is "sleeping" 10 or 12 hours a day?
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here. And in any case, the OP is about vaccines causing autism. What does febrile convulsions have to do with that? Are you implying that if there's any side effects at all associated with vaccines, whatever those symptoms must be, then it follows that vaccines cause autism? I certainly hope that's not what you're attempting here, because if so, that would place you squarely in the camp of those who are more interested in trying to "win" an internet argument than discussing the truth of whether or not vaccines cause autism.


How does anyone know if the potential of a 6 month old baby has been damaged or not?
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This goes back to my burden of proof remark earlier. "How does anyone know" doesn't cut it. What you need is "There is proof that." You don't have that, and therefore your argument fails.


WTF Vaccines causing health problems to young children, serious health problems, is not conspiracy theory, it's reality.
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I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure those parallel vertical poles flying off into the distance are goalposts. Of course vaccines can cause health problems in some young children (a very tiny minority), no reasonable person denies that. Every effective medication can cause side effects in some people. Treatments as massively successful and important as aspirin and penicillin can and have killed people. Should we ban them, along with every other effective medication? Sure, if we want to go back to the time when human life expectancy was around 30 years and the majority of babies failed to survive childhood.

But that's not what this thread's about, it's about whether or not vaccines cause autism. So trying to turn the argument into "but vaccines have some side effects" is a strawman so huge you could hide the Trojan army in it.

This is the point at which it becomes rather difficult to show any respect at all to your argument. The subject of this thread is whether or not vaccines cause autism. If you have evidence that it does, present it. If you don't, admit such, rather than attempting to save a bit of face by shifting the goalposts.
 
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WTF Vaccines causing health problems to young children, serious health problems, is not conspiracy theory, it's reality.
Click to expand...
WTF Seat belts causing health problems to young children, serious health problems, is not conspiracy theory, it's reality.
WTF Helmets causing health problems to young children, serious health problems, is not conspiracy theory, it's reality.
WTF Dogs causing health problems to young children, serious health problems, is not conspiracy theory, it's reality.
WTF Stairs causing health problems to young children, serious health problems, is not conspiracy theory, it's reality.
WTF Toys causing health problems to young children, serious health problems, is not conspiracy theory, it's reality.

Your point:confused:?

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/seizures.html
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/seizures.html

Maybe you should take the time to read all of those links.
You think those people have some nefarious agenda?
Click to expand...
You think this is relevant for some reason?
 
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Safe-Keeper said:
Here's a primer: http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html

At the time of writing, 79 365 cases of preventable illnesses, of which 727 resulted in deaths. This is contrasted with 0 cases of autism found to have been caused by vaccination.
Click to expand...

Go spread those lies somewhere else. In the fifties I think there were over a million cases a year of measles and about 500 deaths a year. 60 years later I'm sure most of those lives would be saved by modern medicine.
 
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