Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
'telling the time is involved'

platonov,
Even in the original appeal of Raffaele's, and well before the additional information on the screensaver activity was filed, the appeal points out that a simple search with the program Spotlight shows a file being opened at
9:26PM.


I was expecting that and many other responses in the same vein.

But I am hoping to get to the root of the 'science' - leaving aside the details of this particular case.

'Science' [even animal science] hardly varies from case to case as the need arises.

We shall see.

ETA I hope RM that even you wouldnt deny it was a simple question.
No need to click on links or read posts, nothing complicated like that - although 'telling the time' is involved :)
 
Last edited:
Sorry, I meant "at or about".

Rolfe.

To me it is obvious that she walked back to her house just before 2100, was captured on the CCTV, given her habit of calling her sick mother daily she placed the call right after entering the house. Given the geography of the house she wouldn't have noticed Rudy in the bathroom. He approached her right after she dialed and attacked her.

Caso chiuso, as Frank would say.
 
I just watched the Paul Ciolino video of Nara where they tried to reconstruct her hearing the people running away and realized the cops never interviewed her, they just watched her on the local news.

I think all three of the main 'witnesses' were initially unearthed by the same source, the local paper whose name looks like it would translate to 'Journal of Umbria.' I just saw something again on that recently and I cannot where offhand. Quintavalle also went on TV after being badgered by the reporter for that paper.

This is why I refer to it as an 'investigation.' :p

Personally I think the biggest clue to what really happened is that we know they made a mistake arresting Patrick, Amanda and Raffaele, and that all the 'evidence' they thought they had, and they presented before Matteini, was bogus. When they actually got the results from the murder site they found nothing of Amanda or Raffaele, but they 'attributed' Rudy's shoeprints to Raffaele and then found that contamination/fabrication/imagination of Meredith's on the knife at Raffaele's.

Both items were bogus, and everything introduced subsequently would be too. It's all smoke and no fire, they made as much a mistake arresting Amanda and Raffaele as they did Patrick. This should have been obvious when they arrested a break in artist. That was the answer to everything, but that demented kook Mignini just couldn't let go of his pornographic theory. He has to have his four-way rape/whatever and a staged break-in instead of the obvious. :(
 
What meal start time is this based on ?

5.30, 6.00 6.30 or 7.00. or any other time of your choosing ?

I'd say Phantom Wolf did an excellent job here putting it all together. To add to this I have a vague memory they might have stopped the video to eat some apple crumble, which might narrow it down closer to 6:15 which is about what you get if you dismiss the outliers and average the rest.
 
The 'foak' circles / responds

I'd say Phantom Wolf did an excellent job here putting it all together. To add to this I have a vague memory they might have stopped the video to eat some apple crumble, which might narrow it down closer to 6:15 which is about what you get if you dismiss the outliers and average the rest.


I was expecting that and many other responses in the same vein.

But I am hoping to get to the root of the 'science' :) - leaving aside the details of this particular case.

'Science' [even animal science] hardly varies from case to case as the need arises.

We shall see.
 
Last edited:
For Seattle she is normal. Doesn't flush the toilet with pee (mellow yellow, shows environmental consciousness and saves water, pisses off English people), smokes pot provided by boyfriends, doesn't actually drink too much, has a "unique" personality (required), follows her own drummer (required), lives life for the moment, engages in yoga moves spontaneously. Thinks the cops are good guys and you should try to help them out. There is really nothing about this girl that looks strange from the Seattle perspective. People are not the same around the world. She is now a hardened Italian who would RUN from the cops just like any Italian would.

She'd have fit in perfectly in Madison, WI, as well, for exactly the same reasons. We have a school the same size and an environment that attracts the same kind of people who sometimes choose to stay. This is going to sound kinda weird, but in one sense I was kinda disappointed to find out 'Foxy Knoxy' didn't actually exist, that was a fascinating construction of police leaks and tabloid imagination. Amanda Knox comes across to me as just another hippy-chick, for crissakes they're 'harmless.'

Raffaele would be 'mostly harmless.' :p
 
LOL at the 'duplicate posts.'

I was expecting that and many other responses in the same vein.

But I am hoping to get to the root of the 'science' :) - leaving aside the details of this particular case.

'Science' [even animal science] hardly varies from case to case as the need arises.
We shall see.

It does in Umbria! :)

Didn't you notice the difference in ToD between Rudy's trial and Amanda and Raffaele's? Do you remember why that is? Because Curatolo rambled on during his testimony and Mignini had to extend the ToD from the outer limits of probability in Rudy's case, to the beginning of impossibility in Amanda and Raffaele's--and no one blinked an eye. Mignini just 'hypothesized' Nara's scream to an hour later, causing Massei to handwave away the scientific testimony.

'The trial was a pig circus, they never had a chance.'
 
I'd say Phantom Wolf did an excellent job here putting it all together. To add to this I have a vague memory they might have stopped the video to eat some apple crumble, which might narrow it down closer to 6:15 which is about what you get if you dismiss the outliers and average the rest.


The girls testimonies pulled from Massei and Micheli

Dinner at Robyn and Amy’s house:
Robyn – perhaps around 6:00 p.m.
Amy – 5:30 - 6:00 p.m.
Sophie – “without time to clarify where the four friends had begun to eat”
 
Meredith's Arrival home

Couldn't have been before 9 because that's when she left her friends. She then had a short walk home.


Massei pg 37

Sophie Purton testimony
"she indicated that they had left the house at around 20:45 pm."

It is a 6 minute walk home. 8:45 + 6 minutes = 8:51 p.m. arrival home.


This also corresponds with the CCTV video of MK arriving home.

The CCTV video was stamped 8:41 p.m. It is known from defense presentation on the arrival of the police in regards to Raffaele's calls that the clock is 10-12 minutes slow. 8:41 + 10 min

That means MK arrival time home was 8:51 p.m. Perhaps a few minutes more.


Meredith Kercher's arrival home at 8:51 p.m. Nov 1, 2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1I7fa6aaKI&feature=related
 
When did the appeals court refute it?

BTW, might I ask, halides1 suggested in another post that you think the appeals court will uphold the convictions but the pair will be released at a future time. Is this your assessment of the appeal? If so, do you think they will be released after review by the Italian Supreme Court?

It's not the job of the appeals court to refute ridiculous claims made online.

halides1 was referring to Charlie Wilkes but I will answer the question. Unfortunately I have little hope that this injustice will be corrected in Perugia. I do believe this will eventually be corrected by either the Supreme Court or as the result of an agreement reached between governments.

I find it very interesting that there are dozens of theories on the pro-guilt side. All theories are welcome in the pro-guilt world just as long as they lead to guilt. Your leader Mignini created the multiple theory environment. His latest theory might be getting closer to your theory. He now suggests that Amanda may have orchestrated the entire murder from outside the room. I believe you have a theory that Amanda wasn't in the room.

If I was forced to debate on the pro-guilt side I would use the Harry Potter theory. Amanda and Raffaele would fly around on mops in the cottage as they commit the crime. The theory would be welcomed by the pro-guilt community because it suggests guilt. That's the only requirement listed in the pro-guilt handbook.

Injustice in Perugia has had one theory from the beginning and never wavers from that theory. When you base your theory on the actual facts of the case there is no need to waver. This crime was brutal but not complicated.
 
Last edited:
Ok, so we've got two stats about gastric emptying. One of beginning at 2-3 hours and one of 3-4 hours. By my reckoning that puts an upper bound somewhere around 10:30pm. The enemy bloggers at PMF have a time of death between 10:00 and 10:30pm, so a late time of death is by no means a universally accepted guilter "fact". There is also a scream claimed to be heard at some point between 10:30pm and 11pm. Again, from PMF.

Is the reason for the prosecution claiming a late murder time Curatolo's 11pm sighting?

Clearly I'm relying heavily on the PMF timeline here, but could somebody point out where I've gone wrong? I don't see that a pre-11:30pm time of death shows they couldn't have done it, unless a better alibi does materialize.


Nara's scream was said to be at 11:30 p.m. by the prosecution.
In Rudy's trial it was 10:30 p.m.
So we can say the scream was heard between 10:30 - 11:30 p.m.


The stalled car was outside the cottage from 10:30 - 11:35 p.m.

The scream would have had to have been heard either before 10:30 p.m. or after 11:30 p.m. because of the stalled car. There are problems with each of these times.

11:30 p.m. scream:
It conflicts with the stomach contents.
This is the time the prosecution used to convict them. Can it just be changed?

10:30 p.m. scream:
This one is possible but the timeline is really tight.
Leave Raffaele's at 9:26 p.m. after video is started.
Leave Cottage by 10:30 p.m. before stalled car arrives.


The Tod at the latest would be around 10:00 p.m. going with the 4 hrs maximum for the stomach to start emptying and dinner starting at 6:00 p.m.

The scream would be closer to 10:30 p.m. going by the time given at Rudy's trial instead of Amanda and Raffaele's.


To accept the 10:30 p.m. scream it requires that Toto's testimony is dismissed (it's a goner anyway) AND that the time of the scream given during the first trial is moved an entire hour earlier.

It requires that Amanda and Raffaele get stoned between 8:40 p.m. when his friend stopped by and Amanda appeared normal and a 9:26 p.m. dept.

They would have put in a video and then left anyway, deciding not to watch it after all.

They also had to by chance meet Rudy on the way to the cottage at 9:26 p.m.

That would be one CRAZY hour. Leave, meet Rudy, party, kill Meredith and leave all in one hour between 9:26 p.m. - 10:30 p.m.
 
Last edited:
Stumbled on this today when I was looking up information one Stomach ulcers for someone.

The timing of the symptoms in relation to the meal may differentiate between gastric and duodenal ulcers: A gastric ulcer would give epigastric pain during the meal, as gastric acid production is increased as food enters the stomach. Symptoms of duodenal ulcers would initially be relieved by a meal, as the pyloric sphincter closes to concentrate the stomach contents, therefore acid is not reaching the duodenum. Duodenal ulcer pain would manifest mostly 2–3 hours after the meal, when the stomach begins to release digested food and acid into the duodenum.

More independant verification of the 2-3 hour timing.
 
halides1 was referring to Charlie Wilkes but I will answer the question. Unfortunately I have little hope that this injustice will be corrected in Perugia. I do believe this will eventually be corrected by either the Supreme Court or as the result of an agreement reached between governments.

I disagree, I suspect Raffaele and Amanda will be found not guilty by this court. I think perhaps it should be taken into account that this sort of thing isn't unusual in Italy, that mistakes are made by the trial of the first instance which are then rectified by the appeals court, and this is one case where that is more likely than most. Whereas in the United States many like to assume our justice system is the best in the world for the defendant, and if mistakes are made it is due to criminals getting off, the Italians know that's not the case with their system. There's less reason for them to balk at the idea a mistake was made, in fact those jurors--by law better educated than the first trial--know that's why they're there.

The prosecution has to take that case through court again, this time likely missing the most damning pieces of evidence. As I recall Curatolo was one of the last to testify in the previous trial, at a time when jurors' minds had probably been made up, when he might have come across as eccentric and lovable. The report listed in Candace Dempsey's blog suggested it didn't go that way this time, they weren't laughing with him, they were laughing at him. The DNA evidence has to come in, I don't think that's going to be in his favor either, another embarrassment at the outset of the trial, and he has little to make it up with. The defense knows what's coming this time around, there's little that could be possibly be added, and some more that might yet be subtracted--and they didn't start with all that much to begin with.

I suspect some of what worked against Amanda and Raffaele in the first trial will work for them in this one. I recall asking Charlie Wilkes months back before he left 'who owns all those TV stations and could use a scandal in the judiciary right about now?' I am unsurprised that Rocco and others are calling into an investigation into what happened in the backroom of that police station in Perugia. Whereas last trial it was Amanda's 'accusation' which leaked into the trial, this time it might well be 'what happened to those poor kids in that police station?' What are the demographics of Oggi and just what is the composition of that jury? Since Amanda has been in jail, at least two books have been published in Italian about her experiences there which reports indicated to me were overwhelmingly positive, however I did not risk my sanity by attempting to read them through Google translate! :p

Put yourself in Mignini's shoes, this is man who sees enemies all around him, perfectly justified as he's pissed a lot of people off. He has a judge who just isn't giving him what he wants, a Supreme Court which didn't 'respect' the Massei court like he'd told all and sundry they would, and a lead prosecutor who seems to me to be hiding behind him. He has a top MoJ parliamentarian defending one of his victims, and another one from an opposing party writing that book and letter wanting an investigation into what was 'investigated' by himself--almost like they don't trust him. He's facing his own charges as well, that has to go to the SC too soon, doesn't it? He had a dreadful English language interview which might preclude future attempts, and yet again lashed out at a journalistic critic--which did no good whatsoever except focus the eye of a respected defender of journalists. (thank you! :) ) This is a wonderful way to draw the ire of English-speaking journalists, whose reports might well leak into the Italian press as well.

I suspect that one of the things that contributed to this travesty of justice was a confluence of events that cannot be repeated. That prosecutor who appears to me to be hiding behind Mignini is supposedly up for the Supreme Court according to Broken_English, do you suppose he really wants to send this case to them? Do you suppose he'll go beyond the bounds of propriety like Mignini and Comodi did, in the last trial, or let them do so in this one? Which reminds me, one thing I recall both Broken_English and Machiavelli agreeing on is that Massei might receive a poor evaluation for his report on that trial, which apparently didn't impress Judge Hellmann much either according to reports. Do you suppose he wants to write a motivations report condemning Amanda and Raffaele again with even less evidence? That might encourage him not to allow the prosecution nearly as much leeway as Massei did in the last trial.

My view is Italy is not North Korea--nor is it the United States. I know well you've spent more time and assets on this case than I, and I may well be wrong, but I just wanted to add my opinion as I'd been thinking about it since Pilot brought up that old post of Charlie Wilkes. :)
 
I disagree, I suspect Raffaele and Amanda will be found not guilty by this court. I think perhaps it should be taken into account that this sort of thing isn't unusual in Italy, that mistakes are made by the trial of the first instance which are then rectified by the appeals court, and this is one case where that is more likely than most. Whereas in the United States many like to assume our justice system is the best in the world for the defendant, and if mistakes are made it is due to criminals getting off, the Italians know that's not the case with their system. There's less reason for them to balk at the idea a mistake was made, in fact those jurors--by law better educated than the first trial--know that's why they're there.

The prosecution has to take that case through court again, this time likely missing the most damning pieces of evidence. As I recall Curatolo was one of the last to testify in the previous trial, at a time when jurors' minds had probably been made up, when he might have come across as eccentric and lovable. The report listed in Candace Dempsey's blog suggested it didn't go that way this time, they weren't laughing with him, they were laughing at him. The DNA evidence has to come in, I don't think that's going to be in his favor either, another embarrassment at the outset of the trial, and he has little to make it up with. The defense knows what's coming this time around, there's little that could be possibly be added, and some more that might yet be subtracted--and they didn't start with all that much to begin with.

I suspect some of what worked against Amanda and Raffaele in the first trial will work for them in this one. I recall asking Charlie Wilkes months back before he left 'who owns all those TV stations and could use a scandal in the judiciary right about now?' I am unsurprised that Rocco and others are calling into an investigation into what happened in the backroom of that police station in Perugia. Whereas last trial it was Amanda's 'accusation' which leaked into the trial, this time it might well be 'what happened to those poor kids in that police station?' What are the demographics of Oggi and just what is the composition of that jury? Since Amanda has been in jail, at least two books have been published in Italian about her experiences there which reports indicated to me were overwhelmingly positive, however I did not risk my sanity by attempting to read them through Google translate! :p

Put yourself in Mignini's shoes, this is man who sees enemies all around him, perfectly justified as he's pissed a lot of people off. He has a judge who just isn't giving him what he wants, a Supreme Court which didn't 'respect' the Massei court like he'd told all and sundry they would, and a lead prosecutor who seems to me to be hiding behind him. He has a top MoJ parliamentarian defending one of his victims, and another one from an opposing party writing that book and letter wanting an investigation into what was 'investigated' by himself--almost like they don't trust him. He's facing his own charges as well, that has to go to the SC too soon, doesn't it? He had a dreadful English language interview which might preclude future attempts, and yet again lashed out at a journalistic critic--which did no good whatsoever except focus the eye of a respected defender of journalists. (thank you! :) ) This is a wonderful way to draw the ire of English-speaking journalists, whose reports might well leak into the Italian press as well.

I suspect that one of the things that contributed to this travesty of justice was a confluence of events that cannot be repeated. That prosecutor who appears to me to be hiding behind Mignini is supposedly up for the Supreme Court according to Broken_English, do you suppose he really wants to send this case to them? Do you suppose he'll go beyond the bounds of propriety like Mignini and Comodi did, in the last trial, or let them do so in this one? Which reminds me, one thing I recall both Broken_English and Machiavelli agreeing on is that Massei might receive a poor evaluation for his report on that trial, which apparently didn't impress Judge Hellmann much either according to reports. Do you suppose he wants to write a motivations report condemning Amanda and Raffaele again with even less evidence? That might encourage him not to allow the prosecution nearly as much leeway as Massei did in the last trial.

My view is Italy is not North Korea--nor is it the United States. I know well you've spent more time and assets on this case than I, and I may well be wrong, but I just wanted to add my opinion as I'd been thinking about it since Pilot brought up that old post of Charlie Wilkes. :)


Many excellent considerations, Kaosium.
 
What's the longest lag in the trial study? Am I reading this right from the abstract? The study has 80 people? Is it able to actually say what the odds are of somebody still in lag after 2 and a half hours, as I think she would have to be, by 9pm. You can assume it's normally distributed, sure... but you surely underestimate the odds of unusual cases. I accept the odds are still low, but you can't say 1/20,000 for 10:30pm, surely without introducing a bunch of simplifying assumption.


Ah, excuse my misunderstanding! I've read the whole article via a doctor friend who has a subscription, and from memory the longest lag time among the study participants was something like 140 minutes (which is in line with what would be expected in this size study, given the distribution).

But the 90-odd data points show a very good fit to a bell curve, with well-defined percentile stages. And you're correct to say that I extrapolated the curve out the the sort of times suggested by Massei's court. I did so by simply fitting the study curve to the right hand side of a standard normal curve*. The extrapolation to the t = 150 minutes mark is fairly accurate: 150 minutes sits at the 98% point. You're also right to say that assigning numbers at the very narrow tail end of the curve is somewhat arbitrary - but only because the numbers are so very small at that point. Actually, the extrapolation of a 99.995% point at t = 240 minutes is probably conservative - it might be as high as 99.998% (implying that only 1 in 50,000 people has a lag period of this length or longer).

* Even though the report's authors make the point of saying that the T(lag) curve for solid food does not follow a normal curve pattern, what they mean by this is that it's an asymmetrical bell curve - i.e. the left side of the curve (i.e. to the left of the median) is "squashed" relative to the right side. But both sides of the curve do follow a normal curve pattern, so as long as one deals with each half of the curve separately, one can treat it as a normal curve.
 
Each with valid reasons for, and a strong,un-impenetrable commitment to those opinions.

Actually, you are among the first to say the guilt side has valid reasons. Since you are among the few brave enough to make this claim, could you perhaps be the first to actually state what some of those reasons are?
 
Until the reports on the DNA are introduced I'm still on the fence about the whole thing. I believe that the case for not-guilty is stronger than the case for guilty, and certainly makes more sense, however if the DNA report comes back and vindicates the work done by the police, then at that point AK and RS have a lot of explaining to do.

To me the DNA evidence is the strongest, the lamp, the break-in, the change of stories, the weird behaviour can be explained innocently, but if the finding is that the DNA results are confirmed and no likihood of contamination then that places them in the room at some point either during or after the muder.
 
Watch it, PhantomWolf! Your strong un-impenetrable commitment to your opinions is slipping! :D

Rolfe.
 
Watch it, PhantomWolf! Your strong un-impenetrable commitment to your opinions is slipping! :D

Rolfe.

lol. I have never had "strong un-impenetrable opinions" about this case.

The evidence presented in the first trial sounds convincing, on the surface;

DNA on the Bra clip
DNA on the Knife
Staged break in
Mixed blood
Bloody footprints
Witnesses

But most of it has evapourated, if the DNA goes too, then all that is left is the wierd behaviour, and that is nowhere never enough to convict.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom