Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[pilot padron]

Alt+F4,

Here is a link to a reprint of a story by Richard Stagliano.

I notice you fail to comment on Richard's writings that you direct us to in your attempt to help Mary.

Respecting your judgement enough to indeed go and read Richard's entire fawning PR sounding production, I might say I personally was more impressed with what *others did in fact comment about that article* on the same page you link

Just one example:
"I would posit that your theorizing makes sense of what seems to be a very baffling case. That Amanda was involved in some way seems evident both by her behavior at the scene when the murder was discovered and her actions subsequent. However, behavior does not alone prove innocence or guilt per se absent other incriminating evidence.

Her parents have waged a highly expensive pr campaign suggesting all sorts of reasons why Amanda is innocent of everything - which seems to me to be a case of throwing everything possible at a wall in the hopes that something sticks. In all their attempts to paint Amanda as a victim, one must not forget that the real victim in all this is dead - Meredith. And for her family and friends, their grief is forever.
________________________________

Did your attempt to help my friend Mary really want us to go there ?

 

[shuttlt]

Well, I'm not the expert. However I've read a good number of posts taking it as read that it was essential to push the time of death as late as 11.30 in order to implicate Amanda. It merely seems to follow from that, that if she couldn't have committed the crime when it was apparently committed, then how can she have "guilty knowledge" about it either?

Ok, so we've got two stats about gastric emtying. One of beginning at 2-3 hours and one of 3-4 hours. By my reckoning that puts an upper bound somewhere around 10:30pm. The enemy bloggers at PMF have a time of death between 10:00 and 10:30pm, so a late time of death is by no means a universally accepted guilter "fact". There is also a scream claimed to be heard at some point between 10:30pm and 11pm. Again, from PMF.

Is the reason for the prosecution claiming a late murder time Curatolo's 11pm sighting?

Clearly I'm relying heavily on the PMF timeline here, but could somebody point out where I've gone wrong? I don't see that a pre-11:30pm time of death shows they couldn't have done it, unless a better alibi does materialize.

 

[Alt+F4]

Alt+F4,

Here is a link to a reprint of a story by Richard Stagliano.

Have you even read this article halides1?

They are emotionally and financially devastated, says Kris Johnson, who taught Amanda English at Seattle Prep, the exclusive Jesuit high school which costs about $ 20,000 a year. She is number one on Marriot’s approved list.

Madison Paxton is the kosher friend, the one that the careful Marriot casting has approved.

 

[Mary_H]

Translation: graduated from high school. Wow!

So people that lead average, ordinary lives, graduate from high school and attend college are "extraordinary"? Sorry, this is the most failed pro-AK spin I've ever read. I know you desperately don't want to acknowledge their drug use and other faults (the other 6 billion of us have faults but you seem to think that AK and RS are above human failings). So again what makes them exemplary among the millions of other 20 and 23-years olds there were in the world in 2007?

EDIT: Mary you must think I'm extra-super-extraordinary. I have two advanced college degrees, lead a productive, successful life, graduated from high school and played basketball while there.

You, too, have led an exemplary life, in the same way I meant it when I said it about Amanda and Raffaele. If you reread the way my post was structured, you'll see that I suggested that their lives can now be considered extraordinary, because of how they have handled the challenges of their specific situation. Before that, they were simply exemplary, like yours.

Now that you mention it, though, your life is extraordinary, isn't it? Not only because of your marriage, but also because of how open you have been with us about it.

 

[shuttlt]

You, too, have led an exemplary life, in the same way I meant it when I said it about Amanda and Raffaele. If you reread the way my post was structured, you'll see that I suggested that their lives can now be considered extraordinary, because of how they have handled the challenges of their specific situation.

How has Amanda's handling of it been extraordinary? Now her family, what they have managed to achieve, that is extraordinary. It reminds me of the parents of Madeleine McCann in a lot of ways.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Rick Kirsten

Have you even read this article halides1?

Alt+F4,

Have you? From the story, "If she’ll be freed earlier, one who is ready to hire her right away is Rick Kirsten. She worked for this art gallery owner for two months. but he’s betting on her qualities, as if he has known her forever. 'I put an ad, I had 31 applications and I chose her. She used to finish her work in half the time and she would ask for more. And she knew how to deal with people'. His favorite episode-that Amanda’s parents recommended he tell me is about a 8-10 years old girl that seemed to be lost in the crowd at the gallery."

"'I was getting ready to go to take care of her, but a client stopped me, and Amanda was there already and the child was happily laughing.' Not to speak of Amanda’s kindness to his father, a 90 years old painter and zen meditative that was often at the gallery."

 

[Alt+F4]

You, too, have led an exemplary life, in the same way I meant it when I said it about Amanda and Raffaele. If you reread the way my post was structured, you'll see that I suggested that their lives can now be considered extraordinary, because of how they have handled the challenges of their specific situation. Before that, they were simply exemplary, like yours.

Your post specifically said their lives were exemplary before their arrests. They used drugs (to what extent we really don't know), but other than that their lives were no different than most undergraduate college students. They weren't exemplary, and that has no bearing on their guilt or innocence.

Now that you mention it, though, your life is extraordinary, isn't it? Not only because of your marriage, but also because of how open you have been with us about it.

Thank you but there was nothing exemplary or extraordinary about my marriage. I just married the person I loved. The exemplary acts were done by those who, for years, never gave up the fight for same-sex marriage in Massachusetts.

 

[Rolfe]

Ok, so we've got two stats about gastric emtying. One of beginning at 2-3 hours and one of 3-4 hours. By my reckoning that puts an upper bound somewhere around 10:30pm. The enemy bloggers at PMF have a time of death between 10:00 and 10:30pm, so a late time of death is by no means a universally accepted guilter "fact". There is also a scream claimed to be heard at some point between 10:30pm and 11pm. Again, from PMF.

Is the reason for the prosecution claiming a late murder time Curatolo's 11pm sighting?

Clearly I'm relying heavily on the PMF timeline here, but could somebody point out where I've gone wrong? I don't see that a pre-11:30pm time of death shows they couldn't have done it, unless a better alibi does materialize.

I think it's extremely unlikely that Amanda's Meredith's stomach would not have started to pass food along to her duodenum by 10pm, never mind later. You have to remember the specific circumstances. Amanda Meredith was a healthy young woman with no reason to suspect delayed intestinal transit. Immediately after her meal she sat down to watch a film, which is very conducive to uninterrupted digestion. If she'd gone out jogging it might have been a different matter.

Nine o'clock is perfectly reasonable, but much more than that and it starts to become special pleading.

Rolfe.

 

[Mary_H]

How has Amanda's handling of it been extraordinary? Now her family, what they have managed to achieve, that is extraordinary. It reminds me of the parents of Madeleine McCann in a lot of ways.

Well, think of the ways Amanda could have reacted. She could be sending messages out constantly about how much she hates and resents the jerks who put her in jail, or about how terribly she's been treated. She could be bribing the guards to get her drugs; she could take sex partners or pick fights with other prisoners. She could stay out of the choir and the Christmas play; she could take up smoking, become obese, misbehave, carry a shiv made out of a toothbrush.....

Instead, she knows at least two more languages than she did when she went in; she has increased the number of credits toward her degree; and she looks pretty much the same as always, which I think speaks to her integrity and her desire to stay healthy. Those who have met with her in prison have only good things to say about her.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Brothers and sisters

I notice you fail to comment on Richard's writings that you direct us to in your attempt to help Mary.

Respecting your judgement enough to indeed go and read Richard's entire fawning PR sounding production, I might say I personally was more impressed with what *others did in fact comment about that article* on the same page you link

Just one example:
"I would posit that your theorizing makes sense of what seems to be a very baffling case. That Amanda was involved in some way seems evident both by her behavior at the scene when the murder was discovered and her actions subsequent. However, behavior does not alone prove innocence or guilt per se absent other incriminating evidence.

Her parents have waged a highly expensive pr campaign suggesting all sorts of reasons why Amanda is innocent of everything - which seems to me to be a case of throwing everything possible at a wall in the hopes that something sticks. In all their attempts to paint Amanda as a victim, one must not forget that the real victim in all this is dead - Meredith. And for her family and friends, their grief is forever.
________________________________

Did your attempt to help my friend Mary really want us to go there ?

Pilot Padron,

Liestoppers was an effective counterweight to the "fun house mirror" (Stuart Taylor and KC Johnson's apt metaphor) for the mainstream media's distortions of the characters of the three accused Duke lacrosse players. Scroll down a few pages in this thread. Anonymous commenter Baldo wrote, "Prosecutor Miginini & Nifong must have been twins separated at birth." I would only add that Seattle should cede to Durham the honor of being Perugia's sister city.

 

[shuttlt]

Thank you but there was nothing exemplary or extraordinary about my marriage. I just married the person I loved.

 

[Alt+F4]

Alt+F4,

Have you? From the story, "If she’ll be freed earlier, one who is ready to hire her right away is Rick Kirsten. She worked for this art gallery owner for two months. but he’s betting on her qualities, as if he has known her forever. 'I put an ad, I had 31 applications and I chose her. She used to finish her work in half the time and she would ask for more. And she knew how to deal with people'. His favorite episode-that Amanda’s parents recommended he tell me is about a 8-10 years old girl that seemed to be lost in the crowd at the gallery."

"'I was getting ready to go to take care of her, but a client stopped me, and Amanda was there already and the child was happily laughing.' Not to speak of Amanda’s kindness to his father, a 90 years old painter and zen meditative that was often at the gallery."

Wow! She worked for this man for a whole two months! Still don't see anything here about her being exemplary. How was she so much more wonderful than any other 20-year old? As for your link, any comment about his take on Marriot's spin?

 

[pilot padron]

Have you even read this article halides1?

As ALT notes, these are directly from the article halides sent us to
___________________
Quote:
They are emotionally and financially devastated, says Kris Johnson, who taught Amanda English at Seattle Prep, the exclusive Jesuit high school which costs about $ 20,000 a year. She is number one on Marriot’s approved list.
Quote:
Madison Paxton is the kosher friend, the one that the careful Marriot casting has approved.
___________________________
WOW, just wow !


Indeed, I also suspect the good Dr is having second thoughts about where he sent us.

How does anyone save a communications engineer or self published author successfully 'spin' the above direct quotes from the writer of the article himself, much less the incredibly incriminating later commenters.

After all, the endlessly regurgitated talking point here is that Marriott does nothing except 'schedule' a few media requests for Curt and Edda.

In reality,these are little other than US media Dog and Pony shows with obedient anchors reading from the PR provided script of questions.
But woe be to the opposition poster who leads that cheer on this fact based playing field of mobile goalposts.

Thankfully, halides1's link did that for us.
Thanks in advance

 

[Alt+F4]

Amanda was a healthy young woman with no reason to suspect delayed intestinal transit.

I think you mean Meredith.

 

[LondonJohn]

Ok, so we've got two stats about gastric emtying. One of beginning at 2-3 hours and one of 3-4 hours. By my reckoning that puts an upper bound somewhere around 10:30pm. The enemy bloggers at PMF have a time of death between 10:00 and 10:30pm, so a late time of death is by no means a universally accepted guilter "fact". There is also a scream claimed to be heard at some point between 10:30pm and 11pm. Again, from PMF.

Is the reason for the prosecution claiming a late murder time Curatolo's 11pm sighting?

Clearly I'm relying heavily on the PMF timeline here, but could somebody point out where I've gone wrong? I don't see that a pre-11:30pm time of death shows they couldn't have done it, unless a better alibi does materialize.

The correct one is 2-3 hours. Most forensic pathologists actually have very little experience of determining ToD from gastric contents, and the ones who testified in the first trial seemed to do so in a somewhat throwaway manner. I believe this is because the ToD issue was not thought to be important at the time when they gave their testimony, so consequently they did not sufficiently frame their evidence in this area.

All the available evidence - not only from pathologists who are familiar with using gastric/intestinal contents for estimating ToD, but also, probably more importantly, from the medical research that has been done on this subject - suggests that it's extraordinarily unusual for an otherwise-healthy adult human to retain the entire ingesta of a small/moderate mixed solid meal for any longer than three hours after the start of the meal.

In fact, the evidence suggests that 2.5 hours is already reasonably rare (maybe in 1 in 50 cases). Since we know that Meredith started her last meal by 6.30pm, and that she was still alive at just before 9pm, she must have been one of that 1 in 50. but for her to still been alive with no food present in her duodenum at 10pm, she would have had to have been 1 in around 2,000. And for that time to be 10.30pm, she would have had to be around 1 in 20,000.

 

[Rolfe]

How does anyone save a communications engineer or self published author successfully 'spin' the above direct quotes from the writer of the article himself, much less the incredibly incriminating later commenters.

After all, the endlessly regurgitated talking point here is that Marriott does nothing except 'schedule' a few media requests for Curt and Edda.

In reality,these are little other than US media Dog and Pony shows with obedient anchors reading from the PR provided script of questions.
But woe be to the opposition poster who leads that cheer on this fact based playing field of mobile goalposts.

Thankfully, halides1's link did that for us.
Thanks in advance

If Darat, or LashL, or Cuddles or Lisa or Professor Yaffle come into the thread and protest their utter conviction that Amanda is innocent, ho much will that sway you?

What about if all of them do?

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

I think you mean Meredith.

You are of course correct and I thank you. I need to go to bed. I spent much too long last night helping with a major article about the Lockerbie case and I need my beauty sleep.

Rolfe.

 

[LondonJohn]

How does anyone save a communications engineer or self published author successfully 'spin' the above direct quotes from the writer of the article himself, much less the incredibly incriminating later commenters.

After all, the endlessly regurgitated talking point here is that Marriott does nothing except 'schedule' a few media requests for Curt and Edda.

In reality,these are little other than US media Dog and Pony shows with obedient anchors reading from the PR provided script of questions.
But woe be to the opposition poster who leads that cheer on this fact based playing field of mobile goalposts.

Thankfully, halides1's link did that for us.
Thanks in advance

Where do I come into this particular discussion? I think your excitement might be making you all confused about who wrote what.

And as another reminder, I'm not a communications engineer. That's the academic discipline I read for my first degree. It is not, however, my profession. Now, per haps you'll please excuse me for five minutes while I go and parse a cup of tea.

 

[pipelineaudio]

However, some months ago Charlie Wilkes posted a link to a video on something called freestyle running, or something fairly close to this, and what those guys did was far more impressive than what a burglar would have had to do.

Parkour, the only extreme sport the Americans don't utterly dominate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x98jCBnWO8w

 

[pilot padron]

Wow! She worked for this man for a whole two months! Still don't see anything here about her being exemplary. How was she so much more wonderful than any other 20-year old? As your link, any comment about his take on Marriot's spin?

But c'mon, Alt, lets cut the beleaguered and battered home team a break.

After all isn't two months a lot longer than the 1 day Amanda held the plum job in Germany that her poor Uncle worked so hard to get for her.

2 months is impressive and exemplary to some when compared to one day.

Looks like the home team has made one of their own 'swift retreats' anyway